Eternal Security

[SeaBass]

Seems there is a huge disconnect as to what those commands even are. He who cannot be trusted with little won't be trusted with much? are you trustworthy?

God commanded Christians to sing, Eph 5:18,19.
If ye love Me keep my commandments, Jn 14:15 So can a Christian quit keeping Christ's commands and be saved anyway? No.

 

[Sirk]

God commanded Christians to sing, Eph 5:18,19.
If ye love Me keep my commandments, Jn 14:15 So can a Christian quit keeping Christ's commands and be saved anyway? No.

What if you extrapolating no instruments out of those verses is a sin. What if you have caused doubt in a child of God unnecessarliy? Would that be a sin?

 

[flob]

These God's-children-can-go-to-hell brothers, if indeed they are, remind me of Islam. Counterfeiting the God of Israel and the Christians into a kind of Allah, made in the image of their own law. It's hellish. But, if they're saved, as 1 Cor 3 and Heb 12 indicate, they will be saved ultimately, regardless what fire they (or I) pass through

 

[dalconn]

1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

 

[BradC]

2 Pet 2 shows that ANYONE who lives ungodly will be lost, including angels that sinned, those in Sodom and Gomorrah, those that lived prior to the flood AND CHRISTIANS who deny they had been bought Pet 2:1.

Those in Sodom and Gomorrah are EXAMPLES to ANYONE today that chooses to live ungodly.

SeaBass, I can point you to several individuals and couples who do not live in the sins of the flesh and neither do they believe in the gospel. They don't know the grace of God but have a moral lifestyle that is second to none. They strive to be this way and are very disciplined in the way they live. The way they live is right in their own eyes and admired as right in the eyes of others. The benefits they have and receive, because of how they live, are innumerable. They do not live ungodly lives as you would define ungodly. However, they are lost because they were born in sin and shapened in iniquity. They have not been cleansed from sin because they have not believed upon the Son that they might have life.

There are scores of Jews today that live a moral life according to the Torah, but reject the salvation that is in Christ and are lost despite their veneration for God. They refuse to come to God through his Son Jesus Christ but live godly lives according to the law. How shall we label them who live morally but do not believe to those who believe yet are troubled by sin? Shall the one who refuses grace and lives morally be esteemed above those who are troubled by sin but receive grace through our Lord Jesus Christ? Who are the ones that God chooses as candidates for his awesome grace, NOT MANY NOBLE!

 

[Jimbone]

So turning from sin is not about righteousness? That is what I am telling people to do. If folks are already do that, then nobody here would be getting upset. For the Law was not made for a righteous man (as I said before). Who is the Law made for?

No I think your mistaking and taking too much credit from God, and putting too much responsibility for the change on us. I can only speak for my own salvation, but "I" didn't turn away from a dang thing. All "I" did was break and submit my will, and I believe I could only do that through His power as well. Once that was done He came into me and made me all new, and regenerated me with His Holy Spirit. From that point on it may have appeared that "I" turned from my sin, but "I" didn't do anything but what He enabled me to do. Everything good from there on was done through HIS power not mine. "We" don't do anything, and He does everything. Yes there is a complete and total change in us, and yes we see everything different from our salvation forward, but "we" have nothing to do with it and any glory for any change goes straight to Him, and NONE to us. I truly feel this is the biggest disconnect between these two "groups", both think we change, and both know who changes us, but one side makes it sounds like it's "us" responsible to keep ourselves in line. "We" can only go to Him if we get confused and He alone is why we can even have a chance to do the right things. This is the most clear I've ever seen both sides of this argument, and even though I agree with you that we need to stay on the narrow path, I see it's God's power that keeps us able to do that, not our own will. I think that’s the biggest point everyone disagrees with you on. At least that’s how I see it.

 

[atwhatcost]

There are those here who have a lot of doubt attached to their faith, who try to infect others with that doubt, going as far as, in essence, teaching a works salvation. Some have expressed in their lives being despondent, doubtful of salvation, but this is merely what all Christians have suffered at one time or another, especially those young in the faith.

Something important people struggling should know: Salvation, in the Christian faith, is not about the strength of your faith, is not about your infallibility, it is rather about the strength of the faith of Jesus Christ, His work for you on the cross, His work in you by His Spirit, His faithfulness to hold you in His strong hand, His infallibility, which you can rest in, have assurance of the Good Shepherd that loses none of His flock. Instead of doubt, it is for you to have greater faith, have certain hope and trust in the Lord!

Here is a small article about eternal security, which works nicely into a message forum posting format, by a fine man of God, Dr. Irwin Lutzer.

Eternal Security
By Dr. Erwin W. Lutzer

The oft repeated phrase “once saved, always saved” is often criticized as condoning, or encouraging Christians to be lax and even carnal. After all, the argument goes, if people have the assurance that they will be saved regardless of how they live, there is no incentive to live a godly life; Christians can revel in iniquity with impunity. For this reason, the doctrine of eternal security, “once saved, always saved,” has often been better described as “the perseverance of the saints,” that is, true saints will persevere in holiness. They might have lapses in their spiritual journey to be sure, but the direction of their life is to seek holiness, and as they progress in their Christian experience, they become more and more conformed to the image of Christ.

In responding to this controversy and questions about it, we make the following points:

First, that those who are truly saved are kept by Christ until the day of redemption; in other words, God preserves the elect and thus their place in heaven is assured.

Second, conversion brings about a change in the life of all who believe. We have a right to question the salvation of those who bear no outward evidence of the wonderful work of God that is wrought in the hearts of all who truly believe.

Third, after we are initially saved by grace through faith, we should not give the impression that our salvation is somehow maintained and preserved by good works.

Fourth, Christians might at times backslide, capitulating into many different sins and discouragements. No one can say when such have “crossed the line” that they are unbelievers. We must leave the matter to God.

Finally, even though good works are the fruit of saving faith, ultimately, our assurance is based on full confidence in the work of Christ and not our good deeds or lack thereof.

Regarding God’s preservation (our eternal security), John penned the emphatic words of Christ, “All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day” (John 6:37-39).

Read John 10:27-30 which contains a strong promise that Jesus will not lose any of His sheep. We could not respect a shepherd who began with 100 sheep in the morning but returned with only 98 in the evening. True, we, like sheep, can be very stubborn, but in the end, the shepherd makes sure that all of His sheep will be safely in the fold.

Source: Eternal Security | Articles | Moody Church Media

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Honest question (as in not trying to start an argument):
The second one, where does that right come from?

And, just because that word "right" is so vague to me, and these thoughts keep coming through my head, I'll list the thoughts so you know where I'm coming from in asking:
-- The only place I've seen men think out what a right was and then applied it to their agenda was the Declaration of Independence. (American document, just in case any nonamericans don't know which declaration I'm talking about. Our founding fathers drafted it to send to George III of England, which, of course, started our revolutionary war.) They really did think it out though, and called them inalienable rights from God, and yet changed their minds on one of those rights -- "pursuit of happiness" was originally about owning property. So, yeah, I really don't get where we have rights from. I don't see rights mentioned in the Bible... or I have seen them but don't remember them. (It's possible with me. lol)

-- Kind of keep remembering two things with that whole "outward evidence" thingy. The first is my life in Christ. I was saved at 16, three months before Mom died and made me promise to raise up my little brother (who was 5 then) as a good Catholic (I already agreed to being his godmother, so it really was my duty to worry about his religious upbringing. I simply had no idea what that meant either since I tought I promised to raise him up to be Catholic, but then became Christian... and that goes round and round, but it was a serious problem), plus daddy issues and I was stuck going home with Dad, which... well all collapsed me into a druggie by the time I was halfway through my first year of college, so there wasn't much -- if any fruit -- from me until I gave up on my way my senior year to go back to pursue God's way. I was saved though.

And second, those two good friends I keep talking about. For all I can tell they truly were saved. To best describe their personalities and enthusiasm for God, you (JIA) remind me of one of the guys -- all interested in getting to the depths of understanding God's word, but not as light and quick at a joke as Sirk is. (Not to say "not funny" but just to say "serious more often.") The other one was somewhere between a cross between Sirk and Marc, if you can imagine such a crossover. It felt like he had studied the Word nonstop all his life, which he did, but he was the son of missionaries, a lawyer and in his 20s, so I never could figure out how he got it so fast and so right. But despite that serious sounding background, he was quick with the jokes too and passionate like Sirk.

But both of them walked away after 30 years. To me this is as confusing and heartbreaking as it would be if I found out you or Sirk walked away 10 years from now.

So I'm really stuck on do we have this right? AND, if we do, what are we supposed to do with it? You really couldn't tell I was a Christian at all for two years, and I really wouldn't know what to make of it if you and Sirk walked 10 years from now. (BTW, to be clear -- DON'T DO THAT! Do NOT ever walk away. Seems obvious, but it seemed like it should have been obvious to them too.)

 

[seed_time_harvest]

All you've done is stated an anecdote, put forth some scenario, elaborated on it in your own way of thinking, which has no bearing on the truth in the word of God. Do you understand this, that you've just provided an opinion piece of your own thinking? There's no mention of the Holy Spirit in your thinking, as if the most important aspect of the believer isn't even in the equation? Yes, you need to seek better revelation on this. I'd suggest, if you're truly interested, Google those who teach eternal security as truth, which is every Spirit-filled scholar of unblemished repute I can think of. This is mainstream Reformed Christianity, over the generations. Read everything there is about it: if you have the Spirit, you'll see the truth.

Can a born again Christian become reprobate?

 

[sparkman]

Would you like to assert that those in Sodom and Gomorrah were believers?

He said believers.

By the way, I don't believe there are saved ungodly people. Some backslide but God restores the relationship. Their nature is fundamentally altered at salvation and they will not be content living ungodly long-term.

So the ungodly in Sodom and Gomorrah were disciplined, not lost?

 

[Sirk]

Can a born again Christian become reprobate?

If a born again person can become reprobate then the Holy Spirit is unable to finish the job. Which is contradictory to what the bible says.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

If a born again person can become reprobate then the Holy Spirit is unable to finish the job. Which is contradictory to what the bible says.

Another question I would like to ask is what does it mean to be blotted out of the book of life if you were once there?

 

[atwhatcost]

IE.
If you are at the store and in line and the person in front of you pulls out their wallet to pay for their items and they drop a 50.00 dollar bill the old you might step on it or hope they don't see before they leave and then you pick up and might have the audacity to say GOD blessed you.

The new you would think about love your neighbor and do right towards them but if you don't renew your mind even though you have a new nature you may still do what your old nature would have done and keep the money.
Over time you can become insensitive and if you do this long enough you could possibly become reprobate and not care anymore an be rejected because you have sincerely become that way knowing what is right and wrong.

That's why I have a need for more revelation on OSAS.

I've always been the person who'd pick it up, nudge the person, and ask, "Did you mean to give this to me?" No one has yet, but it doesn't hurt to ask. lol

 

[atwhatcost]

Imagine being rescued from a burning tower. Think of the relief you would feel as you were safely taken from the building and the rescuer said: “You are safe now.” Yes, you would have been saved from certain death. But what would happen if you decided to go back into the building for some foolish reason? Your life would again be in danger.
Christians are in a saved condition. They have the prospect of everlasting life because they are in an approved position before God. As a group, their salvation from Adamic sin and all its consequences is sure. But individually they will be saved to eternal life only if they continue to adhere to all of God’s requirements. Jesus emphasized this when he likened himself to a vine and his disciples to branches in that vine. He said: “Every branch in me not bearing fruit [God] takes away . . . If anyone does not remain in union with me, he is cast out as a branch and is dried up; and men gather those branches up and pitch them into the fire and they are burned.” (John 15:2, 6; Hebrews 6:4-6) Those losing faith in Jesus also lose everlasting life.

Think of what you're saying in practical terms. A fruit bearing vine? Picture one, anyone you want -- tomatoes, grapes, passionfruit, beans, whatever.

Got it pictured in your mind?

Okay. Two questions:
1. Is there always fruit on it?

And since there isn't, the next question:
2. How much fruit are you getting off it if you take away all the branches that don't bear fruit at every given moment? If you're lucky by the time you cut off all the branches, the only thing left is a long green string with one or two leaves left. Most the time you don't even get the leaves, because they are on the branches, so you have a long green string that will die.

That's not God. That's not us. Might want to study up on how to grow vining plants, because you're version of God is as related to the Bible as Mighty Mouse is.

 

[atwhatcost]

there are scripture for both sides

No, there's really not.

 

[Sirk]

Another question I would like to ask is what does it mean to be blotted out of the book of life if you were once there?

This question is above my pay grade. Perhaps someone could answer this for Seed?

 

[atwhatcost]

If they couldn't lose it anyway why even bother putting Hebrews 6:4-6 in the bible?

Read the first phrase in that chapter. It tells why. The first sentence explains it as a whole. (Also shows why you shouldn't be pulling apart context.)

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by seed_time_harvest

Another question I would like to ask is what does it mean to be blotted out of the book of life if you were once there?

The book of life (in Exod 33 God's book) is the record of those living (compare Psalm 69.28). To be blotted out of it is to die. The overcomer (the true Christian) is promised that rather than being blotted out of it his name will be confessed before the Father. (Psalm 69.28 contrasts those whose names will be blotted out of the book of life with those who are written with the righteous). It is not suggesting that the name of the righteous ever will be blotted out of it. That is why Jesus said, 'Rejoice that your names are written in Heaven'.

In contrast is the Lamb's book of life from which no name will ever be blotted out, for they were written there from the foundation of the world.

 

[atwhatcost]

Which group of people and by who?

Group of people - "Judaizers joy-suckers"

By whom - Sparkman.

(For the record, I have no idea what "Judaizers joy-suckers," but, man! Sparkman sure knows how to suck joy out of the room in a hurry. You'd think someone who sucked joy would actually have a little after a while. I guess we aren't what we eat.)

 

[mwc68]

This just seems like another OSAS thread

 

[Sirk]

This just seems like another OSAS thread

Thats because people can't get past vain imaginations and hold every thought captive. ie....the focus is on nonexistent sin vs the truth of grace.