Grace: A License to Sin (FALSE!)

[BenFTW]

This is how I imagine a legalist sees someone who comes to Christ with a revelation of His grace, or for that matter just a person who holds to the Gospel of Grace. The idea that our sins are taken care of past, present, and future makes them think we can go out and sin all we want. The assumption is that grace gives us a license to sin. Don't worry though, the same question arose when the actual Gospel was preached by the apostle Paul.

Romans 6 King James Version (KJV)

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

You see, this question can only arise when the proper gospel is preached. A gospel full of grace, full of Jesus and His sacrifice on the cross. This question cannot however be raised to those who would preach a message of mixture, or combining both Law and grace. If a preacher/evangelist were to say to a congregation that we must keep the Law, repent daily, and if we sin we must confess our sin in order to be forgiven, and we must live a holy and righteous life; do you suppose that this question could be raised? Of course not! The preacher would face palm, what he said went in one ear and out the other. He just preached a message of daily repentance from sin and this person asks if he can sin all he wants? It wouldn't make sense.

So, in what context can this question be raised? It can only be raised if indeed Christ's sacrifice took away ALL sin (past, present, and future) as the Word clearly reveals. He paid the price for sin, period. Such a question points to a Gospel that showers us in grace. To ask if we can sin all we want, points to the fact that we are forgiven completely. So the question comes up as, "Why then can't I sin all I want so that grace may abound?" The fact of the matter is, sin is taken care of (at the cross). All sin. The question implies that the messenger made it, ever, so clear that we are completely and totally forgiven.

It made me laugh when I saw that GIF and made me think of people who view the Gospel of Grace as a license to sin. That is how they imagine radical grace, but do not see that grace doesnt feed the flesh but speaks to the spirit. It is grace, not law, that makes sin have no dominion over us. It is grace that teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts. If you continue reading all of Romans 6 it continues to explain why we don't go on sinning, and it can be summed up as, "It no longer is who you are." You are dead to sin, and alive unto God. It isn't a license, but it sure does give liberty!

 

[KennethC]

The thing is BenFTW is that you must realize is not all who believe in the doctrines of eternal security or osas look at it the same way you do. I have seen others on here who have from those doctrines said that they can live however they want, twist scriptures about eternal life into not speaking on eternal life, and say obedience to the gospel word is not necessary.

If obedience is not necessary then that is the same as saying you can live a sinful life and still be saved, and also I even talked to two others just a couple days ago that said you can still live carnally minded and have salvation. Apostle Paul completely squashes that ideal as he said to be carnally minded leads to eternal death.

Also the false argument in these debates is when those of you from the eternal security and osas doctrines try to label those who do not follow those doctrines as legalists. A legalist is one who tries to say all 613 Mosaic laws still have to be obeyed for salvation, which is completely another false teaching.

One of first issues is absolutely no scripture says future sins are automatically forgiven at a one time repentance !!!

Jesus gives a worldly example on repentance and how it is to be done each time we sin against Him or another (Luke 17:4).
Then you Apostle John in his epistle that clearly says the blood of Christ only covers your future sins if you continue to walk in the light and repent/confess those sins when you do backslide and sin again (1 John 1:7-9, 2:1-2).

Then you have the clear scripture from Apostle Peter that only past sins have been forgiven (2 Peter 1:9).
Apostle Paul also confirms this in Romans 3:25 !!!

 

[Joidevivre]

First comes the Grace of His Presence. When you fully enter into that fellowship and His Spirit quickens you, sin no longer has the satisfaction that it used to. And your desire is to the One who loves your soul, and to please Him. You are now a Christian.

However, you are also still walking around with your sin nature that you must learn to deny. There will be times when you just fall short, and His Grace does cover that. But since you are now walking in the Spirit of His presence, it grieves you, and you pick yourself up, receive His Grace of forgiveness, learn from your mistakes, and keep your enjoyment of His presence alive.

The Holy Spirit has promised to conform you to the image of Christ as long as you remain in fellowship with Him.

And so we sing "Amazing Grace - that saves a wretch like me".

 

[ember]

First comes the Grace of His Presence. When you fully enter into that fellowship and His Spirit quickens you, sin no longer has the satisfaction that it used to. And your desire is to the One who loves your soul, and to please Him. You are now a Christian.

amen

and you beat on yourself when you fail until you really understand grace and then you understand mercy and how much God must love us

and where there is more sin, there is more grace...in other words, grace covers it all...there is NO other way we could ever make it

 

[Reborn]

The thing is BenFTW is that you must realize is not all who believe in the doctrines of eternal security or osas look at it the same way you do. I have seen others on here who have from those doctrines said that they can live however they want, twist scriptures about eternal life into not speaking on eternal life, and say obedience to the gospel word is not necessary.

Who exactly is saying this, Ken?
Jason is the only other one here who claims people say this?

This all is starting to make sense.....
You are talking about Jason?

Cool. Never mind.

 

[Willie-T]

This is how I imagine a legalist sees someone who comes to Christ with a revelation of His grace, or for that matter just a person who holds to the Gospel of Grace. The idea that our sins are taken care of past, present, and future makes them think we can go out and sin all we want. The assumption is that grace gives us a license to sin. Don't worry though, the same question arose when the actual Gospel was preached by the apostle Paul.

Romans 6 King James Version (KJV)

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

You see, this question can only arise when the proper gospel is preached. A gospel full of grace, full of Jesus and His sacrifice on the cross. This question cannot however be raised to those who would preach a message of mixture, or combining both Law and grace. If a preacher/evangelist were to say to a congregation that we must keep the Law, repent daily, and if we sin we must confess our sin in order to be forgiven, and we must live a holy and righteous life; do you suppose that this question could be raised? Of course not! The preacher would face palm, what he said went in one ear and out the other. He just preached a message of daily repentance from sin and this person asks if he can sin all he wants? It wouldn't make sense.

So, in what context can this question be raised? It can only be raised if indeed Christ's sacrifice took away ALL sin (past, present, and future) as the Word clearly reveals. He paid the price for sin, period. Such a question points to a Gospel that showers us in grace. To ask if we can sin all we want, points to the fact that we are forgiven completely. So the question comes up as, "Why then can't I sin all I want so that grace may abound?" The fact of the matter is, sin is taken care of (at the cross). All sin. The question implies that the messenger made it, ever, so clear that we are completely and totally forgiven.

It made me laugh when I saw that GIF and made me think of people who view the Gospel of Grace as a license to sin. That is how they imagine radical grace, but do not see that grace doesnt feed the flesh but speaks to the spirit. It is grace, not law, that makes sin have no dominion over us. It is grace that teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts. If you continue reading all of Romans 6 it continues to explain why we don't go on sinning, and it can be summed up as, "It no longer is who you are." You are dead to sin, and alive unto God. It isn't a license, but it sure does give liberty!

Actually, this is not far from how I felt when Jesus finally got it through my thick skull that my Salvation was not contingent upon constantly maintaining the "proper" Righteous-appearing attitude, and kicking into the "church-approved Repentance mode" in order to repeatedly reinstate a condition of forgiveness by my actions of contrition and convincing demonstration of "genuinely Holy" groveling.

And discovering that I could live as I wanted to, and still be always forgiven, was so liberating! Because, unlike when I was trying to follow prescribed formulas, I soon found that I was seldom fighting urges to go against the things I was always worried about VIOLATING, but instead, was surprisingly pleased to find out that MY will was now lining up with God's will a lot more than it ever did when I was always trying to "live right" by adhering to a set of rules that I had memorized.

 

[mwc68]

Some people promote an attractive idea: all TRUE Christians, regardless of how they live, have an absolute assurance of salvation, once they accept Jesus into their hearts as "their personal Lord and Savior." The problem is that this belief is contrary to the Bible and constant Christian teaching

Keep in mind what Paul told the Christians of his day: "If we have died with him, in baptism, we shall also live with him." Romans 6:3-4
"If we DO NOT persevere, we shall NOT reign with him." 2 Timothy 2:11-12

Paul also writes: " see, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off." Romans 11:22-23

It is interesting that Paul also includes this important condition: "provided you remain in his kindness ."

The Bible says that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation, but it does not teach that we have a guarantee of heaven.

" God will be true to his word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Chist and are obedient to him." 1 John 3:19-24

Paul also warns, "Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall." 1 Corinthians 10:11-13

 

[KennethC]

Who exactly is saying this, Ken?
Jason is the only other one here who claims people say this?

This all is starting to make sense.....
You are talking about Jason?

Cool. Never mind.

If you have not seen them, well I will just leave it at that because they are very easy to find !!!

 

[Rosesrock]

How many ways can this subject be discussed?
Or i guess how many threads does it take to prove the same point?

 

[KennethC]

Actually, this is not far from how I felt when Jesus finally got it through my thick skull that my Salvation was not contingent upon constantly maintaining the "proper" Righteous-appearing attitude, and kicking into the "church-approved Repentance mode" in order to repeatedly reinstate a condition of forgiveness by my actions of contrition and convincing demonstration of "genuinely Holy" groveling.

And discovering that I could live as I wanted to, and still be always forgiven, was so liberating! Because, unlike when I was trying to follow prescribed formulas, I soon found that I was seldom fighting urges to go against the things I was always worried about VIOLATING, but instead, was surprisingly pleased to find out that MY will was now lining up with God's will a lot more than it ever did when I was always trying to "live right" by adhering to a set of rules that I had memorized.

Nowhere in the bible says you can live however you want and still be saved after receiving the truth !!!

 

[VioletReigns]

There is so much written on this site about the reality of God's grace to us through Jesus Christ. I sincerely doubt very many people will actually be awakened to the truth via these posts. Most times it just becomes a debate.

Nevertheless, hopefully someone will have their spiritual eyes opened. Nothing's impossible with God. The Lord's will be done.

 

[Willie-T]

Nowhere in the bible says you can live however you want and still be saved after receiving the truth !!!

Maybe you can understand this more clearly....





This quote has been attributed to St. Augustine, referring to what he said in a sermon on 1 John 4:4-12:


See what we are insisting upon; that the deeds of men are only discerned by the root of charity. For many things may be done that have a good appearance, and yet proceed not from the root of charity. For thorns also have flowers: some actions truly seem rough, seem savage; howbeit they are done for discipline at the bidding of charity. Once for all, then, a short precept is given you: Love, and do what you will: whether you hold your peace, through love hold your peace; whether you cry out, through love cry out; whether you correct, through love correct; whether you spare, through love do you spare: let the root of love be within, of this root can nothing spring but what is good.

It's been paraphrased as:

Love God and do whatever you please: for the soul trained in love to God will do nothing to offend the One who is Beloved.

I've heard people just use the first half without the full expression, usually in a flippant way, but I think Augustine may be onto something here. We certainly get enough discussion about what God wants us to do or things along that line. Augustine seems to think that if we love God we aren't going to offend him and so don't need any "rules". Jesus seems to me to agree with him when he said:


Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

[notuptome]

There is so much written on this site about the reality of God's grace to us through Jesus Christ. I sincerely doubt very many people will actually be awakened to the truth via these posts. Most times it just becomes a debate.

Nevertheless, hopefully someone will have their spiritual eyes opened. Nothing's impossible with God. The Lord's will be done.

So many hear but do not hear. Dull of hearing. Unable to hear the truth because they do not like the truth. Unwilling to admit they are unable to save themselves. Unwilling to say that they are not good enough on their own to merit heaven, after all they are as good as anybody else. Anybody except Jesus that is and only He was good enough.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[KennethC]

Maybe you can understand this more clearly....





This quote has been attributed to St. Augustine, referring to what he said in a sermon on 1 John 4:4-12:


See what we are insisting upon; that the deeds of men are only discerned by the root of charity. For many things may be done that have a good appearance, and yet proceed not from the root of charity. For thorns also have flowers: some actions truly seem rough, seem savage; howbeit they are done for discipline at the bidding of charity. Once for all, then, a short precept is given you: Love, and do what you will: whether you hold your peace, through love hold your peace; whether you cry out, through love cry out; whether you correct, through love correct; whether you spare, through love do you spare: let the root of love be within, of this root can nothing spring but what is good.

It's been paraphrased as:

Love God and do whatever you please: for the soul trained in love to God will do nothing to offend the One who is Beloved.

I've heard people just use the first half without the full expression, usually in a flippant way, but I think Augustine may be onto something here. We certainly get enough discussion about what God wants us to do or things along that line. Augustine seems to think that if we love God we aren't going to offend him and so don't need any "rules". Jesus seems to me to agree with him when he said:


Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Obeying the command to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind does not give a person the free will to live however they want and still be saved......

If you walk in love you will do no harm to self and others, which means you will not continue to sin deliberately all the time. Yes you may backslide time to time, but nowhere does the bible give free reign to sin. That is called being carnally minded to believe one can live however they please and still be saved.

Augustine, now I see where the issue comes from as this man has a bunch of teachings in his doctrine that does not align with scriptures.

Here are other points that Augustine taught in his eternal security doctrine he started;
Black (Augustine's teaching) Blue (My words, and what the bible says)


1. Absolute predestination

(Yes we are predestined to come to Christ in order to receive salvation, some will choose not to though......Matthew 22:14)


2. Impossibility of falling away or apostasy. (Eternal Security)

(Absolutely refuted in the bible Matthew 24:10, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Hebrews 6:4-6, Hebrews 3:12-14, 1 Timothy 4:1)


3. Man has no free will.

(Refuted in the bible as well in Joshua 24:15 and Romans 6:16 just to name a few.)


4. One cannot know if they are saved.

(Refuted in the bible by 1 John chapters 2 through 4.)


5. God commands impossibilities.

(Refuted in the bible by Romans 13:9-11 and 1 John 5:3.)


6. The supreme authority of the Roman church.

(Also refuted by the bible in John 16:13 and James 1:6.)


7. Purgatory.
8. Prayers for the dead.

(No biblical evidence to support any of these two teachings.)


9. The damnation of unbaptized infants and adults.

(Absolute not biblical as the bible speaks on the age of innocence for kids, but as for adults who knew His command and refuse to do it well I will just leave that to the Lord.)

10. Sex is sinful because depravity is inherited.

(Sex is not sinful when it is done in a marriage between the husband and wife.)

 

[Willie-T]

Well, I guess I was wrong... looks like you don't intend to try and understand much of anything.

 

[ember]

Originally Posted by KennethC

The thing is BenFTW is that you must realize is not all who believe in the doctrines of eternal security or osas look at it the same way you do. I have seen others on here who have from those doctrines said that they can live however they want, twist scriptures about eternal life into not speaking on eternal life, and say obedience to the gospel word is not necessary.

I have never seen this...I honestly have never seen any post that indicates the writer believes they can live like Bacchus on holidays while thumbing their nose at those who believe that is not appropriate for a Christian

I have seen where this claim is made by others, but have not seen the evidence

Would you provide said evidence?

Like a picture, that could be worth a whole lotta words

 

[psalm6819]

I have found that beholding Jesus, by studying the scripture is the most effective way to conform to His image, as more of the perfection of His character is displayed, the more I recognize His holiness and His lovingkindness. I want to submit to Him not break His heart by doing things that damage others and myself. His grace reassures me that He is faithful.

 

[crossnote]

How many ways can this subject be discussed?
Or i guess how many threads does it take to prove the same point?

A blast from the past...

How many ways can this topic be discussed,
Before it is forever banned?
The answer my friend is blowin in the wind
The answer is blowin in the wind.

 

[crossnote]

Here was another question that the accusers accused Paul of...

Romans 3:8 (KJV) And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

So, nothing new under the sun when you preach a Gospel of grace.

 

[Jason0047]

Dear BenFTW:

Please do not take this the wrong way, but did you not just say in another thread that one can not forgive and yet still be saved? Is that not having a license to sin? Do you know that sin is transgression of the Law? (1 John 3:4), and that the words by our Lord Jesus Christ for us to forgive is a direct command (law) from him?

I am confused as to what you are saying. Please help me to understand where you are coming from. I just do not see your doctrine as one that promotes holiness and goodness. Especially if you say you can be forgiven without forgiving others.

I say this not to wound you but I say this in love.

Anyways, may God's love shine upon you.
And please be well.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


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