How could God punish the serpent if Satan possessed it?

[Jason0047]

Atheists and or skeptics of the Bible have made the claim that it was wrong or unjust of God to punish the physical creature known as the serpent because it was merely possessed and influenced by Satan. For they say that the serpent was just a host and that it was innocent to the devil possessing it. So God was unfair to punish this creature to crawl upon it's belly because the serpent was just a mindless beast who was just acting on some uncontrollable instinct. Is this true? Well, if you believe in the Bible and you know that God is always fair, just, and good in His judgments, then you know that the Atheist and Skeptics claim here is not true. They are looking at the glass as it being half empty here because they do not want to believe in God and His Word.

The truth of the matter is that animals do on some basic level have a sense of awareness when it comes to right and wrong. When you snap a newspaper across the behind of your dog and raise your voice in disapproval of the little guy because he left a nice hot pile of steaming brown stuff on your new carpet, you will notice that your dog does have the capactity to be aware of his guilt in what he has done. For masters can train their dogs to not leave strategically placed steaming piles brown stuff upon their carpets like their unexpected painful land mines to step upon.

Take for example: When the Lord opened the donkey's mouth to speak to Balaam. What did the donkey say?

"What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?" (Numbers 22:28).

Here we see the mind of the animal. It was seeking to please it's master because it was wondering why Balaam had just smitten him three times. An animal that was mindless would not be able to express any kind of thoughts like this. But the Lord opened the mouth of the donkey to express it's thoughts. This lets us know that animals on a basic level do have an awareness when it comes to doing good or bad. For if you were to read the rest of the donkey's conversation in the Bible, you would see that the donkey was trying to convince it's master that it was faithful to him. The beast had concern for it's master.

In the New Testament, when the demons were cast into the pigs, these beasts then chose to kill themselves by them all running of the cliff. The pigs could have made a differrent choice then run off the cliff. The point is that they acted with a particular thought in mind. This suggests that the creature known as the "serpent" (In Genesis 3) made a free will choice to willingly cooperate with the devil (When such a beast could have resisted such possession like the pigs had done). However, seeing that the serpent did not act suicidal like the pigs in Genesis 3, we can safely assume that this "serpent" was allowing itself to be influenced by the devil. Therefore, because this beast allowed for such a thing to happen, it was also guilty before God and received punished, too.

 

[Jason0047]

Granted, I do not believe animals will face any kind of "Animal Judgment." That would be silly. What I am suggesting here is that animals do have thoughts and that they do have on some basic level a sense of free will to do good or bad (even though it is not exactly like the free will of humans). Animals are more instinctive and reactive to their masters and their environments, and they are not as intelligent as humans (because they are only seeking to meet the basic needs like food, sleep, playing, procreating, and in some cases depending on the animal they will seek out loyalty to a particular master). So they are not going to be held accountable for doing any kind of right or wrong in an afterlife.

 

[purgedconscience]

The truth of the matter is that animals do on some basic level have a sense of awareness when it comes to right and wrong. When you snap a newspaper across the behind of your dog and raise your voice in disapproval of the little guy because he left a nice hot pile of steaming brown stuff on your new carpet, you will notice that your dog does have the capactity to be aware of his guilt in what he has done. For masters can train their dogs to not leave strategically placed steaming piles brown stuff upon their carpets like their unexpected painful land mines to step upon.

All I can say is that I laughed my head off when I read this part of your post. Unexpected painful land mines? rofl!

 

[purgedconscience]

Btw, the serpent was cursed above all the other creatures, but all of the creatures were cursed. Paul explained why in his epistle to the Romans:

Romans chapter 8 verses 19 thru 22

For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

When Adam sinned, everything that had been placed under his dominion was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Adam's transgression. Again, according to the Genesis account, the serpent was cursed above other creatures, but all creatures were cursed and others quite possibly underwent physical changes as well:

Genesis chapter 3 verses 14 and 15

And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

 

[Jason0047]

All I can say is that I laughed my head off when I read this part of your post. Unexpected painful land mines? rofl!

When I lived with room mates back in the day, our downstairs neighbors had two red eyed blood hounds. They had the nasty habit of pooping perfectly where you would step right out of your car in the gravel drive way in the back of the house. They also layed their loads of fun on the small litttle walk way area (in the back entrance), too. So if one was in a hurry for work and was not looking.... one could easily step into one of these horrible land mines of death.

 

[Is]

Atheists and skeptics? That's who I take my advice from. NOT!

 

[purgedconscience]

When I lived with room mates back in the day, our downstairs neighbors had two red eyed blood hounds. They had the nasty habit of pooping perfectly where you would step right out of your car in the gravel drive way in the back of the house. They also layed their loads of fun on the small litttle walk way area (in the back entrance), too. So if one was in a hurry for work and was not looking.... one could easily step into one of these horrible land mines of death.

Please, stop! As sober as I normally am, I have a very silly sense of humor and I have tears running down my cheeks as I'm reading this. Have mercy on me and don't mention the land mines any more lest I bust a rib or something.

 

[Jason0047]

Btw, the serpent was cursed above all the other creatures, but all of the creatures were cursed. Paul explained why in his epistle to the Romans:

Romans chapter 8 verses 19 thru 22

For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

When Adam sinned, everything that had been placed under his dominion was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Adam's transgression. Again, according to the Genesis account, the serpent was cursed above other creatures, but all creatures were cursed and others quite possibly underwent physical changes as well:

Genesis chapter 3 verses 14 and 15

And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

I agree and thank you for bring that up. However, I have to say that when we get down to verse 15, it is then talking about the devil or Satan (and not the serpent anymore). For Genesis 3:15 is a Messianic prophecy as I am sure you are aware of. If you have not seen it, here is a really great short animated video that expresses this prophecy beautifully.

[VIDEO=youtube;3dEh25pduQ8]https://youtu.be/3dEh25pduQ8[/VIDEO]

 

[Jason0047]

Atheists and skeptics? That's who I take my advice from. NOT!

Yes, I merely answered the question because it may be a question that the Christian is confronted with (Who does need the right answers according to the Bible).

 

[Is]

Btw, the serpent was cursed above all the other creatures, but all of the creatures were cursed. Paul explained why in his epistle to the Romans:

Romans chapter 8 verses 19 thru 22

For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

When Adam sinned, everything that had been placed under his dominion was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Adam's transgression. Again, according to the Genesis account, the serpent was cursed above other creatures, but all creatures were cursed and others quite possibly underwent physical changes as well:

Genesis chapter 3 verses 14 and 15

And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

"Creature" in Romans 8:19-21 is the same word as "creation" 8:22, and, refers to those who have been brought into God's spiritual family. Making the point that all the creatures were cursed isn't valid to the passage.

 

[Jason0047]

Please, stop! As sober as I normally am, I have a very silly sense of humor and I have tears running down my cheeks as I'm reading this. Have mercy on me and don't mention the land mines any more lest I bust a rib or something.

*Smiles* I am glad I was able to make you laugh, my friend. Laughter is sometimes an expression of a cheerful heart; And a cheerful heart is like good medicine indeed (Proverbs 17:22).

 

[purgedconscience]

"Creature" in Romans 8:19-21 is the same word as "creation" 8:22, and, refers to those who have been brought into God's spiritual family. Making the point that all the creatures were cursed isn't valid to the passage.

I disagree. Although I do agree that creature refers to creation, the animal kingdom is definitely a part of said creation and it will be liberated at Christ's return. After all, the wolf will lie down with the lamb, etc.

 

[purgedconscience]

I agree and thank you for bring that up. However, I have to say that when we get down to verse 15, it is then talking about the devil or Satan (and not the serpent anymore). For Genesis 3:15 is a Messianic prophecy as I am sure you are aware of. If you have not seen it, here is a really great short animated video that expresses this prophecy beautifully.

[VIDEO=youtube;3dEh25pduQ8]https://youtu.be/3dEh25pduQ8[/VIDEO]

Yes, I'm aware of the prophecy and I just finished watching the video. I think that they should have depicted the serpent with legs when he was tempting Eve or else part of the curse makes no sense. Sorry, I just notice little things like that.

 

[Jason0047]

The Serpent – We do not yet know anything of Satan. All we know about evil at this point is the serpent. What do we learn about him from chapter three?
1. He is a member of the natural world, not a supernatural creature.
2. He is a citizen of the animal domain. He is described as a beast of the field. "Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made."
3. He is the craftiest of beasts. The word crafty suggests skills in evil scheming. He is a sly trixter who is able to deceive others. This seems to be his natural character. This does not place him on an intellectual level with man for he appears to be strictly dyadic in his power of reason. Beasts of the field is the standard of comparison that defines his intellect.
4. He possesses the capacity for speech and reason.
5. He seems to have been a willing participant in the deception so, what are the possibilities.

a. Could he simply have been possessed by Satan? Possibly.
b. Was he himself also tempted? This seems more plausible. For temptation to have any power, there must be the illusion of satisfying some desire. If so, what could he have hoped to gain by the fall of man?

* Seizure of preeminence? Of all natural beings, only man is higher than he.
* Question: Did God create the serpent with a diminished view of reality; an epistemology that was rooted solely in the five senses?

There are several reasons why the creature known as the serpent was possessed by the fallen angel known as the devil.

#1. Genesis 3:15 is a Messianic prophecy that could only be fulfilled by the devil and not some kind of physical serpent like species. For Genesis 3:15 was a future decree of punishment that was going to exclusively come upon the devil. Also, the physical serpent creature itself is also punished by the fact that it will crawl upon it's belly now. So both the serpent and the devil are proclaimed to have some kind of punishment set forth upon them in Genesis chapter 3.

#2. In Ezekiel 28:13, the anointed fallen cherub (Who is the devil) was said to be in the Garden of Eden.

#3 In John 8, On one occasion Jesus said to some Pharisees who were trying to kill him,

‘You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.’ (John 8:44).​

To what event, involving lying and murder, from the beginning, could Jesus have been referring?
The temptation of Eve certainly qualifies as being in the beginning, as it is the first recorded event involving Eve after her creation. The serpent lied to Eve when he said, ‘You shall not surely die,’ and as this is the first lie recorded in Scripture, the title ‘father of it ’ [‘it’ = lies or lying] would seem to be a very apt description of the person doing the lying on this occasion.

Eighteenth century Bible commentator Matthew Henry comments on the passage,

‘He [Satan] is the great promoter of falsehood of every kind. He is a liar, all his temptations are carried on by his calling evil good, and good evil, and promising freedom in sin.’[SUP]1[/SUP]​

Finally, the serpent’s efforts resulted in the penalty of death falling not only on Adam and Eve, but on the whole human race. Jesus’ term of ‘murderer’ therefore certainly applies to whoever tempted Eve.

The work of the serpent is thus the enactment of everything that Jesus ascribed to ‘the devil ’ in John 8:44.

#4. In Revelation 12:9, the devil is referred to as... "that old serpent." Here is the verse: ~ "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

#5. The devil entered Judas and many demons had entered into a bunch of pigs once. So the devil and his minions can possess both humans and animals. This lets us know that this is how they operate sometimes. So it makes logical sense that the devil's tactics have not changed since the very beginning back in the Garden.

Anyways, I hope this helps you to understand where I am coming from on this point.
May God bless you.
And please be well.


Source used for #3 on my list:
Who was the serpent? - creation.com

 

[purgedconscience]

Where did oldhermit's quote come from? Another thread?

 

[Jason0047]

Where did oldhermit's quote come from? Another thread?

Yes, it was his post (from another recent thread) that made come up with this thread after doing some research on it.

You can check out his original post from the other thread here.

 

[Is]

I disagree. Although I do agree that creature refers to creation, the animal kingdom is definitely a part of said creation and it will be liberated at Christ's return. After all, the wolf will lie down with the lamb, etc.

Please go back and read 8:16 "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God".

Your exegesis isn't hitting the mark.

 

[Jason0047]

Please go back and read 8:16 "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God".

Your exegesis isn't hitting the mark.

The creature is clearly talking about animals. How so? Just read the passage. It says,

"For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God."

Did you catch that? It says the earnest expectation of the creature waits.... for the manifestation of the sons of God. That would not make any sense if man was eagerly waiting for the manifestion of the sons of God. The wicked would not be eagerly awaiting for such a thing, and the saints (who were men) ARE the sons of God. So it would not make sense to say that the saints are both the creature and the sons of God. For it is talking about two different entities here. Creature and sons of God. You can't smash them together and say they are the same thing when they are not. The sentence would not make any sense if you did that.

The sons of God are not waiting to be manifestion of another group known as the sons of God.

 

[purgedconscience]

Please go back and read 8:16 "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God".

Your exegesis isn't hitting the mark.

Actually, my exegesis is spot on:

Romans chapter 8 verses 16 thru 23

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Paul wrote of the earnest expectation of the creature or of how all of creation waits for the manifestation of the sons of God. Why? Because when the sons of God are fully manifested at Christ's return with their glorified bodies which are mentioned in the fuller text, then all of creation will be delivered from the bondage of corruption and into the same glorious liberty of the children of God. Surely you realize that the animal kingdom is part of all of creation, don't you? Surely you've read about the wolf lying down with the lamb and the sucking child playing on the hole of an asp, haven't you?

Isaiah chapter 11 verses 6 thru 10

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

My exegesis is just fine, thank you.

 

[Jason0047]

Yes, I'm aware of the prophecy and I just finished watching the video. I think that they should have depicted the serpent with legs when he was tempting Eve or else part of the curse makes no sense. Sorry, I just notice little things like that.

Well, for me, the jury is still out on whether the serpent was a winged serpent or it was a serpent with legs and or arms to stand. I have yet to do the study on this one to see whether the Bible speaks on such a thing. Anyways, the cartoon is metaphorical and not meant to be exact. For there is no way Jesus and David and the others actually looked like they did in the video. It is merely a symbolic representation so as to tell the story of God's Word.