If every member is ministering, who gets the paycheck?

[Yet]

The NT gives us a beautiful picture of the open meeting assembly. Paul lays the ground work in 1Cor. 12 and 14, Ephesians 4, and Romans 12 for the MO of the body of Christ. No one telling another 'we have no need of you' like exists today.

In the first century, they 'discerned the body of Christ' aright! It was Jesus operating through all the folks!

So if every member is a functioning vessel, who gets the salary? Please take note when you read those chapters that the executive 'pastor' is missing. Maybe he went on a much needed vacation! That could be true if he was mentioned anywhere else in the word. He is not!

Epehesians 4 is speaking clearly of the empowering Christ and His spiritual gifts He's given unto all men. Look at the Greek, and those functions are singular. But does that mean that there is only one apostle, one prophet, one evangelist, one teacher, one poimen/shepherd, pastor? Of course not. It's pointing to the Holy Spirit that imparts those functions to different individuals at different moments in the context of the participatory meeting. Some maintain said functions for certain tasks such as evangelism, etc..

In light of the scriptures that describe the assembly of the saints and their open spiritual functions, '2 or 3 at a time, everything done decently and in order', I submit that most Christians, out of ignorance of the word, are indeed 'forsaking the assembling of themselves together', not forsaking getting together but forsaking the way we are to get together. How we function once we are together.

Right is is right and wrong is wrong and the 'body of Christ' has been lulled to sleep by wrong and we think it's 'having church'.

I have rattled on....you know me by now. The main question to you is this. If every member of the body of Christ is to minister in turn, who gets the pay check? Don't lay tradition on me. Lay scripture on me. The Greek for honor means honor, not money. So don't go there please!

 

[Willie-T]

The NT gives us a beautiful picture of the open meeting assembly. Paul lays the ground work in 1Cor. 12 and 14, Ephesians 4, and Romans 12 for the MO of the body of Christ. No one telling another 'we have no need of you' like exists today.

In the first century, they 'discerned the body of Christ' aright! It was Jesus operating through all the folks!

So if every member is a functioning vessel, who gets the salary? Please take note when you read those chapters that the executive 'pastor' is missing. Maybe he went on a much needed vacation! That could be true if he was mentioned anywhere else in the word. He is not!

Epehesians 4 is speaking clearly of the empowering Christ and His spiritual gifts He's given unto all men. Look at the Greek, and those functions are singular. But does that mean that there is only one apostle, one prophet, one evangelist, one teacher, one poimen/shepherd, pastor? Of course not. It's pointing to the Holy Spirit that imparts those functions to different individuals at different moments in the context of the participatory meeting. Some maintain said functions for certain tasks such as evangelism, etc..

In light of the scriptures that describe the assembly of the saints and their open spiritual functions, '2 or 3 at a time, everything done decently and in order', I submit that most Christians, out of ignorance of the word, are indeed 'forsaking the assembling of themselves together', not forsaking getting together but forsaking the way we are to get together. How we function once we are together.

Right is is right and wrong is wrong and the 'body of Christ' has been lulled to sleep by wrong and we think it's 'having church'.

I have rattled on....you know me by now. The main question to you is this. If every member of the body of Christ is to minister in turn, who gets the pay check? Don't lay tradition on me. Lay scripture on me. The Greek for honor means honor, not money. So don't go there please!

You are seriously hung-up on money. Wow! So your video flopped, and you didn't make the money you were expecting. Don't be so jealous that other people DO produce something people are willing to pay to support.

 

[purgedconscience]

Don't lay tradition on me. Lay scripture on me. The Greek for honor means honor, not money. So don't go there please!

Excuse me, but I will go there:

I Timothy chapter 5 verses 17 and 18

Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Paul defined exactly what he meant by honor and those who labor when he said for or because the scripture saith. In other words, in light of the fact that God has said that you shall not muzzle the ox that treads out the corn or that you should not withhold from taking care of God's ministers and in light of the fact that the laborer is worthy of his reward or hire as Jesus Himself taught, we ought to help support God's ministers whether you like it or not.

By the way, speaking of elders, who taught that we should have them? Oh yeah, that's right, it was the beloved Apostle Paul whose words you selectively quote:

Titus chapter 1 verse 5

For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

Paul not only appointed elders, but he also wrote the pastoral epistles of I Timothy, II Timothy and Titus. What do you do with the instructions contained within the same in relation to how the church of God ought to operate? You know, things like the following:

I Timothy chapter 3 verses 1 thru 15

This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Why did Paul bother giving such detailed instructions on the qualifications for bishops and deacons if any schmuck could just walk in the church doors and take such an office upon himself as you seem to be claiming? Paul gave such instructions so that Timothy and others might know how they ought to behave themselves in the house of God which is the pillar and ground of the truth.

 

[purgedconscience]

By the way, since you've also previously railed against the tithe, are you yet ready to answer the question that I posed to you some time back which you've conveniently dodged until now?

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/115316-tired-being-alone-3.html#post2117529

.....so I'm gonna backslide. I'm gonna start tithing to the local hireling and sit quietly in the pew. I promise I'll make that awesome man my focal point of adoration.
Im gonna start making sure the poor and the widows are coughing up their tithes. If they are hurting financially, well, sucks to be them.

Heb. 7:8

And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

Who is the he that lives and receives tithes and how does he receive them?

 

[purgedconscience]

Crickets...

 

[Yet]

By the way, since you've also previously railed against the tithe, are you yet ready to answer the question that I posed to you some time back which you've conveniently dodged until now?

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/115316-tired-being-alone-3.html#post2117529

i dodge questions that I nave answered already hundreds of times. What's the point? Go read all my posts.

 

[Yet]

The word office is bogus. Function is the word. Paul said he magnified his office....wrong English word. It's 'service'.

 

[Tintin]

You are seriously hung-up on money. Wow! So your video flopped, and you didn't make the money you were expecting. Don't be so jealous that other people DO produce something people are willing to pay to support.

Wow. Is that really what's fueled his rantings for many, many months now? Depressing.

 

[purgedconscience]

Go read all my posts.

I'll pass. Why not just provide me a link to a post of yours where you've allegedly answered this question before? In any case, God's church has God ordained structure within it whether you or anybody else likes it or not. That said, I fully recognize that there are many hirelings in the pulpits these days, but that's due to them being appointed by men simply because they've been to seminary or something as opposed to having actually been called to such positions by God. It's also due to the abysmal lack of discernment throughout much of professing Christendom and a general lack of knowledge of both God and His Word...in my estimation which is based upon my own observations.

 

[posthuman]

if everyone truly ministers, the "paycheck" does not consist of money.

 

[Willie-T]

Wow. Is that really what's fueled his rantings for many, many months now? Depressing.

Yes, I honestly believe so. The video came out about 4 or 5 years ago. It's really not a bad effort. I enjoyed it. But, I think he made the mistake of somehow tying its success (or lack of) with his own personal worth. (his wife was in the starring role)

It hasn't taken off yet, and I know it has to hurt to see gobs of money going to finance lavish lifestyles of people he considers charlatans, while his sincere effort just sits.

But, it's a tough world, and we have to try to avoid looking back and getting bitter over things that didn't go our way.

 

[Tintin]

Yes, I honestly believe so. The video came out about 4 or 5 years ago. It's really not a bad effort. I enjoyed it. But, I think he made the mistake of somehow tying its success (or lack of) with his own personal worth. (his wife was in the starring role)

It hasn't taken off yet, and I know it has to hurt to see gobs of money going to finance lavish lifestyles of people he considers charlatans, while his sincere effort just sits.

But, it's a tough world, and we have to try to avoid looking back and getting bitter over things that didn't go our way.

Thanks, brother. I don't know how you made the connection, but it brings some context and clarity to what's been going on for well over a year now (sorry, not months). Thanks.

 

[Yet]

By the way, since you've also previously railed against the tithe, are you yet ready to answer the question that I posed to you some time back which you've conveniently dodged until now?

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/115316-tired-being-alone-3.html#post2117529

The Levites did recieve tithes. Verse 11 if therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood....what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedecc......verse 12 for the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
verse 18. For there is verily a dis annulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
So now we are all the priesthood. Do we pay ourselves tithes? Of course not.
No one is to 'lord it over His heritage' yet you believe a self appointed pastor patterned after the world's idea of authority should reign above in a special upper office. This is not scriptural. Jesus said in Matt 20...'the gentile world has upper ruling castes of authority but it shall not be so among you'. You say Jesus was just kidding....right?
The problem is that most of the 'church' does not know the difference between the world's authority and Gods within the context of the body of Christ. His Authority is in each one of us and we are to yield to that authority so much as that true authority is indeed actually within us. This authority is only granted to those who have humbled themselves, not exalted themselves as you suggest. Humility and self loathing is the precondition for the fullness of Christ to be manifest in a believer. Not rising above others and appointing yourself as more important than others like is done way to much in organized religion. Welcome to Pharisee land!
Men putting religious titles in front of their special names only adds to their arrogance. Matt. 23 Jesus condemns this heresy for that very reason. But according to the likes of you, Jesus is still in the joking mood....right?
Bishop, evangelist, pastor, prophet, teacher, episcopal. These are not offices. They are functions. Spiritual functions for the building up of the body of believers , now see if you can digest this part, for the ministry of the saints......in open meetings.
Few see it....most don't, all because of the pride of much learning but sad to say, never coming to the knowledge of the truth. That's a given. That's why you buck. That's why the 'church' is in a state of anemia. Patterned after pagan worldliness!

Willie said I'm hung up on money. Not true. The church is. I'm hung up on the widows being devoured, the poor being robbed...aren't you willie? If not , why not? I'm talking to a wall! That's my error!

 

[Willie-T]

Thanks, brother. I don't know how you made the connection, but it brings some context and clarity to what's been going on for well over a year now (sorry, not months). Thanks.

I was involved in video ministry some time ago, and reviewed hundreds of productions. His found its way to my hands. Other than that, no association.

 

[purgedconscience]

if everyone truly ministers, the "paycheck" does not consist of money.

Yes and no.

Paul's joy or crown of rejoicing or his paycheck, so to speak, was the presence of the saved saints to whom he ministered at the Lord's appearing, I Thessalonians chapter 2 verse 19, but, at the same time, he was often refreshed by the saints by monetary contributions and the like. As both Jesus and Paul taught, the laborer is worthy of his hire. In other words, those who sow unto us spiritual things ought to reap some natural things from us in the process even as God ordained it:

I Corinthians chapter 9 verses 6 thru 15

Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.

 

[phil112]

..........................So if every member is a functioning vessel, who gets the salary? ....................

Almost didn't click on this topic. Incredible that the question is even asked.
What preachers in those days received was what it took to live - a place to sleep and a meal.
That is all it is about. Nowhere does the bible say, or even hint, that the congregation should give enough for the pastor to live opulently.
People are all kinds of hung up on "salary".
Nowhere does the bible say, or even hint, that a pastor receive a salary. These people that think it's okay for the preacher to live in a mansion and drive a Mercedes on his pastors "salary" are ridiculous.
Every day/night I thank God for a roof to keep rain off me while I sleep and for the meal that comforts my stomach.
My true needs and my true desire, is to be with Him in heaven. That is my focus and that is what is important.

People that continuously harp, constantly think, about money are in danger of, or are, serving the wrong god.

 

[Yet]

Almost didn't click on this topic. Incredible that the question is even asked.
What preachers in those days received was what it took to live - a place to sleep and a meal.
That is all it is about. Nowhere does the bible say, or even hint, that the congregation should give enough for the pastor to live opulently.
People are all kinds of hung up on "salary".
Nowhere does the bible say, or even hint, that a pastor receive a salary. These people that think it's okay for the preacher to live in a mansion and drive a Mercedes on his pastors "salary" are ridiculous.
Every day/night I thank God for a roof to keep rain off me while I sleep and for the meal that comforts my stomach.
My true needs and my true desire, is to be with Him in heaven. That is my focus and that is what is important.

People that continuously harp, constantly think, about money are in danger of, or are, serving the wrong god.

Phil, have you no idea the difference between the itenerent preacher and the local body elders? I grow weary!

Yes our movie is a flop and rejected. Just like the apostles were all flops and rejected, not to mention the Savior. And prophets. Paul rejected by some churches he started.yep, a flop.

 

[purgedconscience]

The Levites did recieve tithes. Verse 11 if therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood....what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedecc......verse 12 for the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
verse 18. For there is verily a dis annulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
So now we are all the priesthood. Do we pay ourselves tithes? Of course not.
No one is to 'lord it over His heritage' yet you believe a self appointed pastor patterned after the world's idea of authority should reign above in a special upper office. This is not scriptural. Jesus said in Matt 20...'the gentile world has upper ruling castes of authority but it shall not be so among you'. You say Jesus was just kidding....right?
The problem is that most of the 'church' does not know the difference between the world's authority and Gods within the context of the body of Christ. His Authority is in each one of us and we are to yield to that authority so much as that true authority is indeed actually within us. This authority is only granted to those who have humbled themselves, not exalted themselves as you suggest. Humility and self loathing is the precondition for the fullness of Christ to be manifest in a believer. Not rising above others and appointing yourself as more important than others like is done way to much in organized religion. Welcome to Pharisee land!
Men putting religious titles in front of their special names only adds to their arrogance. Matt. 23 Jesus condemns this heresy for that very reason. But according to the likes of you, Jesus is still in the joking mood....right?
Bishop, evangelist, pastor, prophet, teacher, episcopal. These are not offices. They are functions. Spiritual functions for the building up of the body of believers , now see if you can digest this part, for the ministry of the saints......in open meetings.
Few see it....most don't, all because of the pride of much learning but sad to say, never coming to the knowledge of the truth. That's a given. That's why you buck. That's why the 'church' is in a state of anemia. Patterned after pagan worldliness!

All of that posturing and you never actually addressed my question. Let's try this again:

Hebrews chapter 7 verse 8

And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

We know that the Levitical priests are the men that die who received tithes, but Who is the He that lives Who receives them now and how does He receive them?

Come on. Be honest. It won't hurt.

 

[Tintin]

People crap on about grossly wealthy pastors, but I've only ever met pastors who have rather humble homes and lives. Some are lower-middle class, at the very most. Maybe it's more of an American thing.

 

[ember]

this glorious painting of the New Testament church is not signed by the Holy Spirit

so much of the NT was written to CORRECT error and what Paul writes in Corinthians? Have you read those books?

Let's see now, one man was sleeping with his dad's wife...Paul went so far as to say even unbelievers would not do that; nobody was stepping up to ask them to either repent or leave, the congregants were boasting about their Christianity, women were out of place and needed to be told how to behave, the men were obviously letting the women run amuck (while secretly resenting them as goes on so often today), they also appeared to be unclear on the idol issues and suffered guilty consciences as a result and were quick to point fingers at others and used their own perceived liberty at the cost of other's liberty in Christ, and let's not forget the ones that got drunk and ate all the food at their 'love feasts'...gluttony!

Personally, I bet you would have left that church after arguing with the leadership.

Lets' not discuss the letter to the churches in Galatia because Paul asked them who had bewitched them. Again, not a great example as they had slipped into trusting their flesh for salvation instead of continuing on in the Spirit.

EVERYONE is not fit to minister, wouldn't you say? I mean, after considering the reality of the NT churches...the arguements among the Apostles...the disagreement between Paul and Barnabas and Paul and Mark and Paul and Peter and Paul and...well probably just about everyone it seems......

I guess some might not have wanted Paul in their church, trouble maker that he was with riots in most places and the Jews forever after him and stirring up problems...yeah quite the guy.

Spiritual gifts are great but there are too far between who actually 'use' them for their intended purpose, which is NOT self glorification. Seems there was significant abuse in the NT churches too...fake prophets, fear mongers, thieves...yuh know, the more I look into it, there really is no difference ... only great instructions which the majority seem to put in their top drawer and forget about.

The main question to you is this. If every member of the body of Christ is to minister in turn, who gets the pay check? Don't lay tradition on me. Lay scripture on me. The Greek for honor means honor, not money. So don't go there please!

EVERY member of the body of Christ is NOT FIT to minister! A full time pastor who is called of God and fulfills his obligations to his congregation, is well deserving of his 'paycheck'

I do hope the above was not too traditional for you.

Sorry to say, you appear to be rather myopic in your struggles and you are doing far too much navel gazing