why cessationism is wrong: good article

ember · Aug 24, 2015

saw a docu on Jonestown a couple of weeks ago

his motto could have been 'nobodies gettin out alive'...people were terrified and wanting to leave because they sensed what was coming...in fact, he apparently basically told them if they tried to leave he would kill them

he even had congressman Leo Ryan murdered as he was trying to leave

I know you like history...here's a synopis of the events

ember · Aug 24, 2015

Re: Why this thread is wrong:

PeacefulWarrior said:

oh the irony

y'all are just full of warm cuddly feelings aren't cha!

PeacefulWarrior · Aug 24, 2015

Re: Why this thread is wrong:

ember said:

I just do not understand you.

I do not understand why you continue to laugh about matters that are not laughable.
I do not understand why you say "don't do this" and then do it yourself.
I do not understand why you condemn others for perceived offenses -- yet you do the same, yourself.

Ultimately, I do not understand why you refused to discuss the subject-matter and only focus on misconceptions and unwarranted grievances.

In short, I do not understand why you are not sincere towards others who are being sincere towards you.

notuptome · Aug 24, 2015

ember said:

That's why they ended. If you attempt to make them part of the modern church you open the door for the great deception. There are no new prophets and no new apostles.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Galatians2-20 · Aug 24, 2015

notuptome said:

You seem to know very little about the missions field. People operate in the gifting of an apostle and prophet all of the time in areas where the gospel is just being heard for the first time. The role of the Apostle is to plant churches and raise up pastors & teachers. The role of the prophet and evangelist often times works in unison with one another to bring correction and accountability. Keep in mind I am refering to operating in the gift of apostle & prophet. Not recocognizing them as an office or title.

I'm very suprised how easy it is for people to dismiss things that they know practically nothing about.

ember · Aug 24, 2015

Re: Why this thread is wrong:

PeacefulWarrior said:

well let me be frank...that's not my name...sincere then

1. I have a sense of humor...you are obviously looking for someone to have a quarrel with...that would not be me...you do not get to take away my joy in the Lord, you do not get to falsely accuse and twist what I or others say here

2. the only one laughing here is the devil...I put a smiley and made what I thought to be a slightly sarcastic but funny comment (since your behavior is actually the opposite of what I said) for a little lightness trying to diffuse your barbs

3. you accused me in the other thread much like you have accused convalleria in this thread...there was only one person in that other thread attacking, calling names and just generally being or trying to be superior in an abusive manner (not you)...you don't see it that way but everyone else does

4. listen up...YOU are actually the only one condemming anyone..at this point, I am pretty much concluding that things are not going as you planned and you are thrashing about with yourself and not knowing how to deal with that, you have brought your internal conflict here...well, not buying it and I don't think anyone else will either

what is there to discuss? how you would further like to bash the gifts or call us liars when we give examples of praying in the spirit and how God answered?

you called Ricky a liar in the other thread and said his testimony came from a vampire movie...seriously...dude...get a grip and you wonder why people are on edge when you show up?

and you end the above post with an accusation calling me insincere....this is not how you get along with people mr warrior...I could dig in on you because you have revealed plenty in your pious posts, but that would be easy to do...hoping you swallow hard, admit where you are wrong, change your tude and speak plainly and without accusation

I don't dislike you or wish you would disappear...but why is anyone going to talk to someone who basically just wants to have a word match and in order to win, twists what the other one says

I've been on forums for years now...Christian ones...and I've 'seen' all kinds...the way you approach your posts, no one...I repeat NO ONE is going to take up a convo with you...unless you begin to understand that you are on equal footing with everyone here

Good on yah for exchanging pms with someone who bent your ear...

anyhow, it's up to you...not going to reply again...just please refer to this post and understand I am not double minded

ember · Aug 24, 2015

notuptome said:

PeacefulWarrior · Aug 24, 2015

ladylynn said:

The Lord confirmed the preaching of His Word with miracles. If Jesus and the first century Christians needed the Word confirmed with the miraculous (Heb. 2:4), then we do too. There is no scripture that says these miraculous signs have passed away.

Some people have interpreted "that which is perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13:10, as being the complete Bible. This has led them to believe that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased. Although God's Word is perfect (Ps. 19:7), it is not the "perfect thing" that is referred to here. 1 Corinthians 13:8 does say that tongues shall cease, but it will not happen until "that which is perfect is come."

In 1 Corinthians 13:12, Paul says, "when that which is perfect is come, we shall see face to face." This speaks of seeing the Lord face to face, instead of vaguely, as through a dark glass, as it is now. Some might argue that this is speaking in a symbolic sense, instead of literally face to face. But the next comparison in this verse says that then, "when that which is perfect is come," we shall know all things even as we are also known. There is no other way to interpret this, except as a description of when we will stand before the Lord, after this life. Then we will be face to face, and know all things even as also we are known.

Verse eight says that at the time prophecies fail and tongues cease, knowledge will vanish away. This is talking about the next life, or the new heavens and earth, because one of the signs of the end times is that knowledge shall increase (Dan. 12:4).

So the "that which is perfect" that Paul speaks of, cannot be the Bible. It has to be either our glorified body, or Jesus at His second coming. Either way, these verses establish that until "that which is perfect is come," tongues and prophecy will remain. They are still valid gifts, and even today, it is God's will to accompany the preaching of His Word with miracles.

I whole heartedly agree with this devotional article.

Source here. One Year With Jesus - December 31 - Andrew Wommack Ministries (I think.)

PeacefulWarrior · Aug 24, 2015

Galatians2-20 said:

You seem to know very little about the missions field. People operate in the gifting of an apostle and prophet all of the time in areas where the gospel is just being heard for the first time. The role of the Apostle is to plant churches and raise up pastors & teachers. The role of the prophet and evangelist often times works in unison with one another to bring correction and accountability. Keep in mind I am refering to operating in the gift of apostle & prophet. Not recocognizing them as an office or title.

I'm very suprised how easy it is for people to dismiss things that they know practically nothing about.

I think I agree with what Galatians2-20 has to say here,
looking forward to Roger's response.

theGeneral · Aug 24, 2015

I have been following this thread and the other "comfort" thread. When I first arrived at Christian Chat, the subject of speaking in tongues was appealing to me, because it was something I didn't fully know what I believed in yet--mainly because I have never been exposed to anyone speaking in tongues. I started researching the bible on this topic for several days. I read the scriptures, prayed about it, as well as followed this thread and read the opinions of others on this Christian chat--What I concluded was this:
1 Corinthians 13:1-8 "13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away."

LOVE never fails, so much to that even if you do have these gifts, if you do not have love it is worth nothing. LOVE NEVER FAILS! Verse 13 even goes on to say that "the greatest of these is love"
Now I, being one that is fairly new to the faith, and was confused on the topic of cessationism and if the gift of tongues was still used in our day and age---reading the scripture in Corinthians I know that the greatest gift we can give is Love. I have noticed that some of the ones on these forums that do not agree with Cessationism, when challenged on the subject did not react with love--Jesus' words found in Mark 12:30-31 say this 30" Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.”
Even if you think that someone was offensive or rude to you (and I have read all of these posts on both this forum and the "comfort") why would you not respond with love? Or in a loving manner? I have noticed a few on here have been respectful in posting their opinions, but whenever it differed from what convellaria and ember believed in these posters were attacked. Where is the love? Is there love in attacking someone because they believe differently? Or, perhaps, if you knew that someone new to the faith and learning still was viewing everything that came out of your computer on to this thread do you think that you would be a good witness to your belief?
1 peter 3:15 "But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect"
Ephesians 4:29 "Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear."
What I have gathered all in all, is that if our greatest commandment to follow is love of God and love our neighbor as ourselves.....and then reitterated in 1 Corinthians chapter 13 as being the greatest of all........I must say thats some of those claiming to have or believe in the gift of tongues still being used today have given me a pretty bad example of how to lovingly speak to those with differing beliefs. Wouldn't God choose those who show love to be the ones to bear witness to him and the truth?
My choice is to love. I hope that helps out everyone to remember to use love in their interactions with their christian "neighbors"

convallaria · Aug 25, 2015

theGeneral said:

Hi TheGeneral,

[FONT=&quot]Good post, many important things in here need to be addressed, so thank you!

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]There is a good reason that the love chapter follows the gifts of the Spirit chapter. We do nothing to deserve these things that God gives us freely, such as the gift of tongues and all the others listed in chapter 12: we do nothing because we CAN do nothing, we are powerless to produce something spiritual out of the flesh.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Now once we have received those gifts of the Holy Spirit promised us, we have the tools to understand what the love of God consists of, and to know without any doubt that the love of God is not something we actually move in naturally within our own flesh, even if we think we do.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The love of humans by comparison has hidden agendas and motives, and while seeming to be all well and good will often, under the eye of the Spirit, be manifested as just one more selfish attribute, that we use to persuade people of our Christian authenticity.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It is an important stage of our development to receive that personal revelation.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]By contrast, then, the love of God sees with the EYE of God the spiritual (and thus eternal) danger that many are in with their invented doctrines. The love of God seeks the good of others through telling them the truth that will set them free, even if it must offend them for a season. The love of God is ready to forgive, easy to be entreated, watching and hoping at every moment for some little sign that one beloved of God will come into line with His Spirit and His living word, in doctrine, in walk, in ministry, in life.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]As Jesus said, Matthew 11:6, and Luke 7:23:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.”

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The love of God sorrows at the unbelief and rebellion of so many that will lead them to a lost eternity. The love of God is able to give a word of correction in the confidence of His peace while doing so, because we know it must be done.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]These are things that are wrought in patience and through the tribulation that we endure as God’s children, as follows:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Romans 5 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
4 And patience, experience; [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
and experience, hope[/FONT][FONT=&quot]:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
5 And hope maketh not ashamed;[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
At each stage of your development in the Lord He will ask you, do you truly want to follow Me? If you know that you do when tribulation begins, and then continues as above, then you will see that you are in this process with the Lord that cannot fail, tribulation working patience as promised.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
And here it becomes a cascade of promises, that as you desire patience because the Lord wants you to possess it, it is given you progressively through the very thing as a human you would think would create the opposite.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
But this is the working of God by His Spirit; and not the working of man.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
So patience (having her perfect work) will then work experience, and experience will work hope, and hope maketh not ashamed…[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
Why?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
Because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
Settle for nothing less. We cannot have that amazing and powerful love of Jesus any other way.[/FONT]

PeacefulWarrior · Aug 25, 2015

convallaria said:

Mark 12:31 New International Version (NIV)

31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[a] There is no commandment greater than these.”

It is important to not deceive yourself by believing outrageous things.

theGeneral · Aug 25, 2015

First of all, let me say, Thank you for the respectful response, that was the whole point I was trying to make by using love, and I appreciate you respecting me by responding to me in a respectful way.

As you mentioned Paul showed us the gifts in verse 12 verse 31 he says to eagerly desire the greater gifts......he then goes on to say "and yet I will show you the most excellent way" then chapter 13 begins to talk about love being the greatest of the gifts. And he says in chapter 13:1-3 13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.2 If I have the gift of prophecyand can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing."

Paul was rebuking the church in the book of Corinthians because there were divisions, the members of the church were branching off and becoming loyal to different leaders, and for their abuse of the spiritual gifts. Paul was encouraging them to become UNITED because of their devotion to Christ.
The Book of 1 Corinthians could have been written to the church today and I believe it best to heed Paul’s warnings and apply them to ourselves. 1 Corinthians brings our focus back to where it should be—on Christ. GENUINE CHRISTIAN LOVE is the answer to many problems. A proper understanding of the resurrection of Christ, as revealed in chapter 15, is the cure for what divides and defeats us. 1 Corinthians 15:56 "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

We may not be perfect, but we can become Christ-like!!! 1 Peter 2:21 " For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps."

The point I was trying to make in my first post was that Love is what we need to show to each others as fellow christians, whether or not the person may believe EXACTLY the same way we do, We are all on our journey with Christ, we all strive to learn and know all of the truths in the bible---the fact still remains that we need to be united with eachother as admonished by Christ and reiterated by Paul in the book of 1 Corinthians, and we are taught to Love like God loves us, we need to be the ones to set the example of love as Christ does, and choose kind words when we feel we are in disagreement with something.

My questions in my original post, still, I feel are mostly unanswered and maybe even not acknowleged, here they are again:

With love, theGeneral

theGeneral · Aug 25, 2015

I must also say that I am sorry for my change of font size and what not, I am new to Christian Chat and apparently I do not know how to keep everything the same font and size, I tried to fix it so that my message was a little more clear, but it said my 5 minutes of editing time had elapsed lol, please excuse my messy looking post, I am still learning the ropes

PeacefulWarrior · Aug 25, 2015

theGeneral said:

Good luck, theGeneral.

I have concluded that these two will continue to dodge this line of questioning -- they attempt to justify their offensive and destructive behavior with the defense that their words are "from God" and so, "of course" they will be offensive...to the unbeliever. But it is a gross misrepresentation of God's Word, to ignore one of the greatest commandments: Love your neighbor, as yourself. Even "tough love" folks will support their arguments with scripture, logic, and facts.

These two have ignored my previous post which shared my stance on this issue, and they lumped me in with the Cessationist crowd. Why? Because they assumed by my "liking" some others' posts -- that I was agreeing with them. I clarified this in a previous post as well, but that went ignored too.

Ultimately, communication with these two is one way -- their way, or the highway.

Godspeed,
PW

PeacefulWarrior · Aug 25, 2015

Convallaria and Ember,

I wanted you two to know that I am leaving CC largely due to my experiences in interacting with you two.

You refuse to discuss with others who discuss from a biblical standpoint, only because you perceive something offensive in their words. Rather than discuss this topic, you only focus on the fact that you were offended. Even when these people clarified their words (your perceived offenses), in response, you ignored their statements and returned the perceived offense with offensive words yourself -- so you essentially are displaying the same behavior to which you object.

Furthermore, you assume too much about me and have obviously ignored much of what I have been trying to communicate. I have been respectful, I have been thorough -- but it doesn't matter how much I attempt to clarify, when my words go ignored or continue to become twisted by you.

Goodbye Convallaria and Ember. Goodbye CC!

theGeneral · Aug 25, 2015

I have noticed that too, unfortunately, but don't be discouraged! People like us can just continue to show love anyways!
Romans 12:21 "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."
I know your intentions are good, God knows your intentions, and what is in your heart. Just keep being you! You inspire me in so many good ways

peacefulbeliever · Aug 25, 2015

PeacefulWarrior said:

PeacefulWarrior . . . I hope that you do not leave because of disagreement with two people! I have disagreed with some but we are all human and we have our faults and our misunderstandings. I wish it weren't so but that's the way we humans are!

I believe in tongues and that they have not ceased BUT I disagree with the term "gift of tongues" and even the "gift of love" . . . go to Biblegateway - key in "gift of tongues" the term is not there . . I even went and keyed in "gift of love" the term is not there. Oh, there are verses with THOSE words but not the "phrase". I don't agree with calling these things: word of wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, gifts of healing, working of miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, tongues and interpretation of tongues - gifts . . . scripture calls them "the manifestation of the Spirit" . . . If that is what God calls them then that is what they are! I do get aggravated (or annoyed) when people use these terms BUT I do not let that keep me away nor keep me from discussing issues that I do enjoy discussing. If people get upset because they don't like what I say or what I believe . . . let them! I can't make anyone like me or like the stance I take! I only press on . . . .

I'm sure that there are other threads that you can enjoy . . . will everyone agree with you? . . . NOPE . . . that's just the way it is . . . .

ember · Aug 25, 2015

theGeneral said:

Love is not the answer to what has transpired with peaceful warrior's posts....he has been disruptive, accusatory and actually very passive aggressive in his posts.

No offence, but I see you have 5 posts, yet you write you are inspired by him.

Please, let's not hide behind so called love. Let's take the whole of scripture's counsel and not mistake alligator tears for hurt feelings.

Immaturity and swinging at others is not love. Harrassing other believers and then accusing them of being the reason you leave is not love. That is passive aggression and immaturity.

ember · Aug 25, 2015

why would you quote Romans 12:21 when referring to other believers?

are you convinced we are evil in some way and your 'good' must somehow overcome us?

I'm shaking my head here, because this is just nonsense IMO

why cessationism is wrong: good article

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