Departure From Oblivion!

[KennethC]

so let me get into this discussion, I've never debated the law before so if I may......you can squish me at any time.

So ....if I choose to follow the law it cannot save me yet if I break the law I must repent and sacrifice according to the law to establish the right relationship between me and God to continue in a law that won't save me.....correct?

You are right on the first part that the law cannot save you, nor can it justify, sanctify, or glorify you before God.

The second part though about breaking the law (sin) is transgressing the perfect law of liberty (Christ), which is the 10 Commandments and any other command given by the Lord (Romans 13:9-11) in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Those are the sins that must be repented and confessed of in the faith to be forgiven of them and thus the outcome for continuous disobedience (deliberate sinning) to them is not death in the flesh (curse of the Mosaic law) but the 2nd death in the lake of fire.

Only faith in Christ can save (Ephesians 2:8) one under grace, not by works of the law !!!

 

[just-me]

so let me get into this discussion, I've never debated the law before so if I may......you can squish me at any time.

So ....if I choose to follow the law it cannot save me yet if I break the law I must repent and sacrifice according to the law to establish the right relationship between me and God to continue in a law that won't save me.....correct?

Yes the law cannot save no matter how one slices it. Our sacrifice is in Christ, and then we must take into account what it means to "present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."

The law MUST be seen and observed in the New Covenant with Christ, as totally spiritual in my opinion.

Where much controversy comes in to this equation, is that the law is supposed to continue to convict our flesh if the flesh is not in subjection to it by the Spirit of God. We are in a constant battle with the flesh especially when we begin to live a Christian life. That's when Satan really attacks. Galatians 5:17 Many want to think that the battle stops as soon as we are "born again." IMO this is backwards thinking. Purposefully disobeying is being under the law, opposite of abiding by God's words for us. Hebrews 10:16

Also, the law is a substantial part of showing us the character (name) of God Almighty. Desiring to be in the will of God is wanting to be obedient Him. 1 Samuel 15:22

 

[KennethC]

Now we are headed in the right direction. If we celebrate Easter, we are remembering Passover and the feast of Unleavened bread, the feast of tabernacles will be observed during the millennial period, and all it entails concerning the other feasts, but I'll save that for another time.

I agree that the sacrificial laws were fulfilled in Christ. Now the physical Levitical temple animal sacrifices and all those ordinances that pertain are now completed in Christ as a perpetual sacrifice for sin.

Being under the law is condemnation. If we are in Christ we are free from what? Answer: The law of sin and death. That doesn't mean the law vanished, it means our sins vanished in Christ's sacrifice for those who believe, being eliminated by the law.

Now with tongue in cheek, hoping that we don't go back to the same redundant ridiculous rhetoric as before, what has vanished away? Hebrews 8:13

The law is a substantial part of God's word. Jesus fulfilled the sacrificial. That is complete in Christ, but by recognizing the spiritual context of sacrifice on the Old Testament (testimony of God through Levi) we can glorify Christ by that recognition because we are not held liable if we truly believe it is all real. Now it's our turn to reciprocate. Romans 12:1

This is done by recognizing Exodus 20 thru 23 for starters. Those chapters have little if anything to do with the Levitical priesthood or the building of the physical temple even though......

1 Corinthians 3:16-17
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

It's all spiritual because the law is spiritual (Paul said so [Romans 7:14 Acts 24:14 ]) and "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24)

[h=1]Romans 4:13-15[/h][h=3]The Promise Granted Through Faith[/h]13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect,

15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

 

[just-me]

What does these words mean to you:

"These were shadows of the things to come"

There is no shadow without light and substance.

When we see a shadow we know the other 2 are present and we turn and look for the real thing if we care about why the shadow is being cast.

 

[just-me]

In response to spiritual laws I would agree with you on that aspect, but those spiritual laws are not the written ordinances of the Mosaic laws. The 10 Commandments are in those spiritual laws as I can show you multiple places they are upheld in the NT. However the rest of the written ordinances I can show you in scripture where they are not kept, changed, or completely done away except for those who still transgress those ways as they are still under the law.

There is a spiritual truth to the eye for and eye, and tooth for tooth thing. It has everything to do with exacting equity. It's a cultural thing actually. One must study the ramifications of slapping.

 

[KennethC]

There is a spiritual truth to the eye for and eye, and tooth for tooth thing. It has everything to do with exacting equity. It's a cultural thing actually. One must study the ramifications of slapping.

The spiritual truth to the eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth the Lord gives us shortly after mentioning this, and He says He requires mercy not sacrifice !!!

 

[just-me]

Romans 4:13-15

The Promise Granted Through Faith

13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect,

15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

Correct! It is by God's grace that He gave the law so we would escape God's wrath, if desired. Galatians 3:19 Christians will not suffer the wrath of God on judgment day, but His does chasten His own.

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (Romans 2:12) I'm sure Paul wasn't scared of suffering the wrath of God even though he worshiped by believing all things that were written in the law. Acts 24:14

 

[KennethC]

There is no shadow without light and substance.

When we see a shadow we know the other 2 are present and we turn and look for the real thing if we care about why the shadow is being cast.

The shadow of things to come means they are only representative of things to take place by the hands of the Lord to fulfill, as He has already fulfilled for the most part a good portion of those shadows.

From here He says:

Luke 9:62
And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

 

[KennethC]

Correct! It is by God's grace that He gave the law so we would escape God's wrath, if desired. Galatians 3:19 Christians will not suffer the wrath of God on judgment day, but His does chasten His own.

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (Romans 2:12) I'm sure Paul wasn't scared of suffering the wrath of God even though he worshiped by believing all things that were written in the law. Acts 24:14

We do not escape God's wrath by the law, we escape God's wrath by grace through faith in Jesus !!!

 

[just-me]

The spiritual truth to the eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth the Lord gives us shortly after mentioning this, and He says He requires mercy not sacrifice !!!

That's exactly what it's all about concerning abuse. The slapper loses his hired servant, and also any investment concerning abusive actions. Turning the other cheek puts the slapper, and the one being slapped, on the same plane.

Acts 10:34

Exodus 21:26-27[SUP]
26 [/SUP]And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.

Actually the "10 Commandments" are a man made phrase. In the Hebrew it is classified as the 10 sayings or 10 words and includes chapters 20 thru 23.

The English phrase “the ten commandments” came into use in the Middle Ages, probably in the late 1200s. But, for instance Wycliffe and Coverdale did not use it in their translations (1395 and 1535).

 

[just-me]

We do not escape God's wrath by the law, we escape God's wrath by grace through faith in Jesus !!!

Yes, we turn to Christ for forgiveness of any infractions that the law eliminates in us, because Jesus Christ is our escape from God's wrath.

 

[just-me]

The shadow of things to come means they are only representative of things to take place by the hands of the Lord to fulfill, as He has already fulfilled for the most part a good portion of those shadows.

From here He says:

Luke 9:62
And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

That there is the fulfillment of the priesthood and of the temple sacrifice. AMEN!! Turning back to our old carnal fleshly man causes one not fit for the Kingdom of God. If we are truly in His will we will want to mature in Him.
Matthew 11:29
It's in my signature. Hebrews 6:1-6

 

[KennethC]

That's exactly what it's all about concerning abuse. The slapper loses his hired servant, and also any investment concerning abusive actions. Turning the other cheek puts the slapper, and the one being slapped, on the same plane.

Acts 10:34

Exodus 21:26-27[SUP]
26 [/SUP]And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.

Actually the "10 Commandments" are a man made phrase. In the Hebrew it is classified as the 10 sayings or 10 words and includes chapters 20 thru 23.

The English phrase “the ten commandments” came into use in the Middle Ages, probably in the late 1200s. But, for instance Wycliffe and Coverdale did not use it in their translations (1395 and 1535).

What Jesus was saying was to eliminate retaliation, when slapped instead of slapping them back turn the other cheek to them.
Show mercy instead !!!

 

[KennethC]

That there is the fulfillment of the priesthood and of the temple sacrifice. AMEN!! Turning back to our old carnal fleshly man causes one not fit for the Kingdom of God. If we are truly in His will we will want to mature in Him.
Matthew 11:29
It's in my signature. Hebrews 6:1-6

That is not all what that verse in Luke 9:62 is referring to, and it says nothing of the priesthood there.

Jesus gives examples of two men who said they would follow Him, but they both said they had to go do other things first;

1) First man said he had to go bury his father...........

2) Second man said he had to go say goodbye to those at his house........

For our focus is to be on our future salvation through Him, not focus on things of the past !!!

 

[just-me]

The shadow of things to come means they are only representative of things to take place by the hands of the Lord to fulfill, as He has already fulfilled for the most part a good portion of those shadows.

From here He says:

Luke 9:62
And Jesus said unto him,No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Obviously I was addressing the shadow in my first sentence not the plough. Then I was addressing the plough in my second sentence and not the shadow. LOL

That there is the fulfillment of the priesthood and of the temple sacrifice. AMEN!! Turning back to our old carnal fleshly man causes one not fit for the Kingdom of God. If we are truly in His will we will want to mature in Him.
Matthew 11:29
It's in my signature. Hebrews 6:1-6

That is not all what that verse in Luke 9:62 is referring to, and it says nothing of the priesthood there.

Jesus gives examples of two men who said they would follow Him, but they both said they had to go do other things first;

1) First man said he had to go bury his father...........

2) Second man said he had to go say goodbye to those at his house........

For our focus is to be on our future salvation through Him, not focus on things of the past !!!

So turning away from Jesus is not what Luke 9:62 is referring to? Let's go back and put this all together in the conversation that was being addressed for all to read and be edified. Obviously you believe the shadow and the plough (plow) are the same.

 

[just-me]

What Jesus was saying was to eliminate retaliation, when slapped instead of slapping them back turn the other cheek to them.
Show mercy instead !!!

Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. (Romans 12:19)

So now I will quote some law in relation to what Paul wrote to the Romans by quoting the law. Ready?

Deuteronomy 32:41-46
[SUP]41 [/SUP]If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.
[SUP]42 [/SUP]I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.
[SUP]43 [/SUP]Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]And Moses came and spake all the words of this song in the ears of the people, he, and Hoshea the son of Nun.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]And Moses made an end of speaking all these words to all Israel:
[SUP]46 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Set your hearts unto all the words which I testify among you this day, which ye shall command your children to observe to do, all the words of this law.

 

[Shoshanah]

The correct understanding of the Torah establishes the fact that there really is no conflict between law and grace because the law is the standard God has shown to us for how to live a life approved by God. That never changes because God never changes (Malachi 3:6). He would not change what He requires of man between what we call the Old Testament and the New Testament. Consequently, there is no need to ‘correct’ the old revelations God gave as they are not defective. Paul is NOT ‘correcting’ Moses, although many today would have us think so. The New Testament is in some areas more descriptive and detailed, but it is never more, or less, true than the Old Testament. The mistake being made is to say Paul is “correcting” what Moses said. Rather Paul was teaching against an incorrect approach to law, NOT the law itself. He was telling the people who were under the misconception that the law would gain them salvation that they were looking at it wrong. Following the law as given to Moses without one’s heart being the motivation for the “works” of the law leads to death.

 

[just-me]

What Jesus was saying was to eliminate retaliation, when slapped instead of slapping them back turn the other cheek to them.
Show mercy instead !!!

There is nothing in the law that says to slap the slapper back in retaliation. LOL


[video=youtube;GVFO4i8wkUs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVFO4i8wkUs[/video]

 

[just-me]

So you are convinced that we only need to live by just part of God's word then?

Again the scripture man should not live by bread alone but every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God does not mean we are to continue to obey everything in the bible.

We rightly divide the word and apply it what its purpose served, and the Mosaic laws served their purpose to us by showing us our transgressions and need for a Savior to bring us to Christ.

Once you come to Christ in the faith you are now lead by the Spirit and are no longer under the bondage of the law to keep its ordinances or die.

The only people that the law is still in effect for are those who have not come to Christ yet, as what they say they say to those who are under it.

Are you under grace or are you under the law ???

You can not serve and be under both of them, as the law brought forth death but the Lord through faith through grace brought life !!!

I'll keep asking you this question so we can stop the ridiculousness please. It's not hard. I'm talking about what God said, not Biblical history.

the following a a quote from this thread
The Great Deception and falling away!

They do not escape my vocabulary, only that I take them in proper context as applied with what Apostle John said also in his 1st epistle. Has and having eternal life is a present now mental assurance of knowing we will receive it at the day of redemption because of the Holy Spirit who is in us, and given to us by God to those of us who obey.

Once again a scripture can not be taken out and made to stand alone, for that will always be taken out of context when one does that.

We have to live by every word that precedes from the mouth of God, which means everything has to be taken into account to get proper exegesis, and not be separated from the rest to stand alone.

That is amazing that you would say that after talking to you for 2 days about that very same thing. Every word is where it's at. AMEN!

 

[BarlyGurl]

you can lead a horse to water...
AND then force him to CHOKE ON IT or DROWN.... and hope he realizes you were doing him a favor once his senses return... having been so dehydrated not realizing he needed to drink at all. <shaking my head>

I sure hope this works out... Help us LORD!!!