Departure From Oblivion!
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That is amazing! Guess what I am just finishing concerning my Bible reading at this point. Job! I have yet to read chapters 39 to 42. 3 more days and I'll be finished. That is so cool. Let me know what you have discovered in that book so far, and I will share my thoughts also. This is really neat! (For a lack of a better term)
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One of the biggest problems professing Christians have is reconciling this holistic understanding of the law with Paul's statements regarding the guaranteed death effect of the law in contrast to the life that comes by the Spirit.
First of all, we know scripture says obedience to the Torah gives life and well-being. In Leviticus 18:5, Adonai declares, “So you shall keep My statutes and My judgments, by which a man may live if he does them; I am the LORD.” Similar statements are found in Ezekiel 20:11, 13 and Nehemiah 9:29. And the beloved book of Psalms begins with thankfulness to the life-giving nature of the law (Psalm 1:1-6), and I had never thought about it but Psalm 119, the longest psalm, is devoted entirely to the positive nature of the law. References to the relationship between keeping the law and well-being are common: vv. 17, 40, 77, 93, 97, 116, 144, 156, 159, 175. Habakkuk 2:4 states the basic Old Testament perspective: "Look at the proud: he is inwardly not upright; but the righteous will attain life through trusting faithfulness.” Simply paraphrased in context, it is best interpreted, 'As for the proud one, his person is not right on the inside; but the righteous in his faithfulness shall live' which, completely debunks the usual ‘righteousness by means of the works of the law’ argument. It is the faith, the ethical character that comes from a righteous faithful heart that justifies us. And that is no different than the ‘saved by faith, not works’ people love to quote, as if it is different than what is said in Habakkuk 2:4 and several other places in scripture. The unchanging fact is that the outward actions reflect the inner spirit of the person, on the basis of which a judgment concerning the spiritual status of the person may be made.
The other frequent ammunition used to shoot down the relevance of the law today is that Christians imagine that the law written on their hearts is different from the law revealed under the old covenant. As Daniel I. Block, D.Phil.; BA; MA: and B.Ed. said so well, "Jesus said, 'If you love me you will keep my commandments' (John 14:15), and 'Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him' (14:21). In lifting these statements right out of Deuteronomy Jesus identifies himself with [Adonai] in the Old Testament. Furthermore, his use of the plural ['my commandments'] presupposes a specific body of laws with which the disciples are familiar. Here Jesus does not say generically and vaguely, 'If you love me you will do as I say,' as if this refers to marching orders for the future."
So, Paul does not correct Moses, the inwardly righteous will gain eternal life through his/her faith which causes them to do works pleasing to Adonai, and the law written on the hearts of Christians today is no different that the law written down by Moses as God instructed. A works based salvation does not exist. However, genuine salvation will result in a life that conforms to the will of God.
First of all, we know scripture says obedience to the Torah gives life and well-being. In Leviticus 18:5, Adonai declares, “So you shall keep My statutes and My judgments, by which a man may live if he does them; I am the LORD.” Similar statements are found in Ezekiel 20:11, 13 and Nehemiah 9:29. And the beloved book of Psalms begins with thankfulness to the life-giving nature of the law (Psalm 1:1-6), and I had never thought about it but Psalm 119, the longest psalm, is devoted entirely to the positive nature of the law. References to the relationship between keeping the law and well-being are common: vv. 17, 40, 77, 93, 97, 116, 144, 156, 159, 175. Habakkuk 2:4 states the basic Old Testament perspective: "Look at the proud: he is inwardly not upright; but the righteous will attain life through trusting faithfulness.” Simply paraphrased in context, it is best interpreted, 'As for the proud one, his person is not right on the inside; but the righteous in his faithfulness shall live' which, completely debunks the usual ‘righteousness by means of the works of the law’ argument. It is the faith, the ethical character that comes from a righteous faithful heart that justifies us. And that is no different than the ‘saved by faith, not works’ people love to quote, as if it is different than what is said in Habakkuk 2:4 and several other places in scripture. The unchanging fact is that the outward actions reflect the inner spirit of the person, on the basis of which a judgment concerning the spiritual status of the person may be made.
The other frequent ammunition used to shoot down the relevance of the law today is that Christians imagine that the law written on their hearts is different from the law revealed under the old covenant. As Daniel I. Block, D.Phil.; BA; MA: and B.Ed. said so well, "Jesus said, 'If you love me you will keep my commandments' (John 14:15), and 'Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him' (14:21). In lifting these statements right out of Deuteronomy Jesus identifies himself with [Adonai] in the Old Testament. Furthermore, his use of the plural ['my commandments'] presupposes a specific body of laws with which the disciples are familiar. Here Jesus does not say generically and vaguely, 'If you love me you will do as I say,' as if this refers to marching orders for the future."
So, Paul does not correct Moses, the inwardly righteous will gain eternal life through his/her faith which causes them to do works pleasing to Adonai, and the law written on the hearts of Christians today is no different that the law written down by Moses as God instructed. A works based salvation does not exist. However, genuine salvation will result in a life that conforms to the will of God.
B
Jaimie, I still haven't forgotten you...and while I am certain the world has not stopped spinning for my lack of full response to you. I did say I would and so now I am here to hand off that chore to whoever will step in...or table the matter because I have some obligations to meet and my mind is NOT where we left off <back there, previous post, can't even really remember the content right now>.
I apologize and intended not to offend... perhaps I was out of order in assuming the burden... I DO have some currently pressing "orders" ... so I will not be around very much for a few days anyway. Blessings to all... carry on... I will catch-up
I apologize and intended not to offend... perhaps I was out of order in assuming the burden... I DO have some currently pressing "orders" ... so I will not be around very much for a few days anyway. Blessings to all... carry on... I will catch-up
Matthew 22:36-40 (NIV)
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. ’This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
True, Jesus was not vague
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. ’This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
True, Jesus was not vague
Matthew 22:36-40 (NIV)
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. ’This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
True, Jesus was not vague
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. ’This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
True, Jesus was not vague
and Leviticus 19:11-18 especially verse 18, "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord."
We cannot forget what's still hangin'.
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Matthew 22:36-40 (NIV)
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. ’This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
True, Jesus was not vague
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. ’This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
True, Jesus was not vague
I am thankful for the few people I have found in here that are serious about having the mind of Christ.
That scripture you cited is in relation to Genesis 34.
Reuben was the firstborn and he was guilty of incest.
Levi and Simeon deceived Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite, saying they had to be circumcised so that Shechem could marry their sister Dinah, they killed them all right after they were circumcised because they couldn't fight back. They were expelled from the birthright for that travesty.
Ephraim is the one who eventually received the birthright.
All that didn't make the Levite tribe bad. Besides Moses was the Levite that God picked first. In order to know about the scattering of the "House of Ephraim" one must understand that Ephraim and Dan are not in the 144,000 in Revelation. Levi and Joseph are. Then see the foundational stones in Revelation also. By this you will be able to piece together the prophecy and the reasons why Levi was replaced by Judah, being the priesthood after the order of Melchizedek.
Judah is in the front.
Ephraim is in the back
Reuben was the firstborn and he was guilty of incest.
Levi and Simeon deceived Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite, saying they had to be circumcised so that Shechem could marry their sister Dinah, they killed them all right after they were circumcised because they couldn't fight back. They were expelled from the birthright for that travesty.
Ephraim is the one who eventually received the birthright.
All that didn't make the Levite tribe bad. Besides Moses was the Levite that God picked first. In order to know about the scattering of the "House of Ephraim" one must understand that Ephraim and Dan are not in the 144,000 in Revelation. Levi and Joseph are. Then see the foundational stones in Revelation also. By this you will be able to piece together the prophecy and the reasons why Levi was replaced by Judah, being the priesthood after the order of Melchizedek.
Judah is in the front.
Ephraim is in the back
I thought I would add something to this thread, even though it has been inactive for quite a while after having been successfully derailed. The fact remains, as the OP stated:
The Pharisees were ‘blind’ to the ‘weightier matters’ of the Law because they were so consumed with their own reputations or how they appeared to other people. (Matthew 23:24)
We have the same thing today with a slightly different wrinkle. Professing Christians, including ‘pillars’ of the local churches, are far more concerned with how other people see them. They ‘absorb’ the rhetoric they hear from preachers and pastors, latching on to clichés and explanations of scripture, without searching the scriptures to see if what they are being taught is right or not. (Acts 17:10-11)
One of the biggest and most problematic examples of this is the ‘works vs grace’ controversy. This controversy should never exist. It is definitely true that we are not saved by works, nor justified by works. “Nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.” (Galatians 2:16)
It is also true what James says, “You see that a person is declared righteous because of actions and not because of faith alone.” (James 2:24)
We can look up in lexicons, dictionaries, concordances, and any other manner of reference book, the etymology of the simple word, “works” and it will make us none the wiser with God’s wisdom to “accurately handle” this example. This is why we are told by Paul, “being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.” We need the Holy Spirit in us to properly understand the scriptures. What is so often overlooked is the fact that the Holy Spirit is not going to write on our hearts anything that does not match perfectly with whatever else God has said…because God does not change. (Malachi 3:6)
Sometimes the simplest things are overlooked…just because they are so simple. The ‘works’ that do not justify us, are those written in the Old Testament with all the little things the Pharisees added, that they thought made them look oh-so-sanctified to the public. But since that was the only reason those works were done, the Pharisees were failures. The ‘works’ that James speaks of, are those things we do because the Holy Spirit has spoken to our hearts - those things we do because of the faith we have in Christ. So when the arguments crop up and a certain group of people are totally anti-works, it is obvious that the study and prayerful discernment has not allowed the Holy Spirit to give accurate understanding of the subject.
Problems like this are why we are told in 2 Timothy 2:15 “Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.” And this scripture is even a point of inaccurate teaching – for generations it was taught as “rightly dividing” which reinforced the separating of scripture into sections or classifications as well as what is no longer applicable and what is.
The Pharisees were ‘blind’ to the ‘weightier matters’ of the Law because they were so consumed with their own reputations or how they appeared to other people. (Matthew 23:24)
We have the same thing today with a slightly different wrinkle. Professing Christians, including ‘pillars’ of the local churches, are far more concerned with how other people see them. They ‘absorb’ the rhetoric they hear from preachers and pastors, latching on to clichés and explanations of scripture, without searching the scriptures to see if what they are being taught is right or not. (Acts 17:10-11)
One of the biggest and most problematic examples of this is the ‘works vs grace’ controversy. This controversy should never exist. It is definitely true that we are not saved by works, nor justified by works. “Nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.” (Galatians 2:16)
It is also true what James says, “You see that a person is declared righteous because of actions and not because of faith alone.” (James 2:24)
We can look up in lexicons, dictionaries, concordances, and any other manner of reference book, the etymology of the simple word, “works” and it will make us none the wiser with God’s wisdom to “accurately handle” this example. This is why we are told by Paul, “being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.” We need the Holy Spirit in us to properly understand the scriptures. What is so often overlooked is the fact that the Holy Spirit is not going to write on our hearts anything that does not match perfectly with whatever else God has said…because God does not change. (Malachi 3:6)
Sometimes the simplest things are overlooked…just because they are so simple. The ‘works’ that do not justify us, are those written in the Old Testament with all the little things the Pharisees added, that they thought made them look oh-so-sanctified to the public. But since that was the only reason those works were done, the Pharisees were failures. The ‘works’ that James speaks of, are those things we do because the Holy Spirit has spoken to our hearts - those things we do because of the faith we have in Christ. So when the arguments crop up and a certain group of people are totally anti-works, it is obvious that the study and prayerful discernment has not allowed the Holy Spirit to give accurate understanding of the subject.
Problems like this are why we are told in 2 Timothy 2:15 “Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.” And this scripture is even a point of inaccurate teaching – for generations it was taught as “rightly dividing” which reinforced the separating of scripture into sections or classifications as well as what is no longer applicable and what is.
And who said anything about being put 'under the law?'
There would be much more agreement and polite discussion if people would refrain from accusing others of wanting to be "under the law" because it has been explained over and over again that the phrase is not at all what anyone on the forum that I have ever seen is proposing.
The law is for the lawless. 1 Timothy 1:9-11
9 We are aware that Torah is not for a person who is righteous, but for those who are heedless of Torah and rebellious, ungodly and sinful, wicked and worldly, for people who kill their fathers and mothers, for murderers,
10 the sexually immoral - both heterosexual and homosexual - slave dealers, liars, perjurers, and anyone who acts contrary to the sound teaching
11 that accords with the Good News of the glorious and blessed God.
We who are believers truly saved by faith are not the lawless. We are the spiritual temple and our reasonable service, our logical "Temple worship" as Romans 12:1 says.
That same old tune is getting REALLY old!
There would be much more agreement and polite discussion if people would refrain from accusing others of wanting to be "under the law" because it has been explained over and over again that the phrase is not at all what anyone on the forum that I have ever seen is proposing.
The law is for the lawless. 1 Timothy 1:9-11
9 We are aware that Torah is not for a person who is righteous, but for those who are heedless of Torah and rebellious, ungodly and sinful, wicked and worldly, for people who kill their fathers and mothers, for murderers,
10 the sexually immoral - both heterosexual and homosexual - slave dealers, liars, perjurers, and anyone who acts contrary to the sound teaching
11 that accords with the Good News of the glorious and blessed God.
We who are believers truly saved by faith are not the lawless. We are the spiritual temple and our reasonable service, our logical "Temple worship" as Romans 12:1 says.
That same old tune is getting REALLY old!
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