Departure From Oblivion!

[Shoshanah]

The entire Bible is the Word of God and, according to His own Words, important for all of us to live by. (Deuteronomy 8:3, Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4) There is serious departure from God’s instructions today and very lame excuses given by people for that departure, such as it's a bunch of boring rituals made obsolete by Christ's sacrifice on the cross and way too negative with all of the “thou shalt nots” in it. It is obvious by such a foolish statement that they do not even know the law.

For a long time I have wished that someone that Christians consider reputable would teach the importance of the entire Bible rather than the separation of the Old Testament from the New Testament, as being all that matters now. A scholar would be listened to much more so than an ordinary person, theoretically anyway, and because of that, could do so much to help 21[SUP]st[/SUP] century Christians understand more fully how the Bible is one big story, all parts intertwined with all of the other parts. (See 2 Peter 1:20). And now it is happening! A very reputable professor at Wheaton College is doing just that and I am so excited about it.

Could this be the “revival” I have heard so many say will happen just before the Lion of Judah returns?

Orthodox Messianic Judaism: Stop the Press! Mainline Christian Scholars Beginning to Promote the Torah of Moses
Daniel Block | Theopedia

 

[KennethC]

I like what you have to say here because yes it is a bad philosophy going around today teaching people that what our Lord Jesus said in the gospel books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are not for us.

I dealt with a couple of them just the other day on here who tried to state that the cross changed everything, and tried to treat me as stupid by saying don't you know there was a change from the OT to the NT. I responded back to them of course there was changes as anybody who studies the word will know this, however what the Lord taught was not OT teachings.

They were instructions for all believers under the new covenant, and I tried to show them all the places where the epistles from the Apostles expounded and confirmed everything the Lord said.

As for the law we also must be careful in these discussions because some believe there is only one set of laws.
There are actually two and that is the written ordinances of the Mosaic laws (613) and the perfect law of liberty (Christs teachings and commands).

I have also seen this statement by many on here and others I have talked to, " Jesus fulfilled the law on the cross."

But is that what Jesus really said or did? No, He said by following the two commandments of; Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and Love your neighbor as yourself hangs all the law and the prophets and fulfills it.

Apostle Paul also states the same thing in Romans 13:9-11.

It surprises me the blatant twisting or ignoring of scripture now days to make a doctrine fit, as they pretty much make the narrow path through the Lord unto eternal life into a broad road. Lord Jesus though says the broad way leads to destruction.

 

[Magenta]

Many of the teachers I have listened to are scholarly in some fashion, and I am very grateful that they share their decades of distilled study and experience of the revealed written Word of God with us. I have listened to a number of teachers over the years of being Christian; I do especially appreciate those who expound upon the connections between the older and the newer covenants, as it is all very illuminating. You may be interested especially in Dr. Gary Hedrick here:

http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/messianic-perspectives/

 

[Shoshanah]

Many of the teachers I have listened to are scholarly in some fashion, and I am very grateful that they share their decades of distilled study and experience of the revealed written Word of God with us. I have listened to a number of teachers over the years of being Christian; I do especially appreciate those who expound upon the connections between the older and the newer covenants, as it is all very illuminating. You may be interested especially in Dr. Gary Hedrick here:


http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/messianic-perspectives/

Thank you. I will check that out.

 

[Shoshanah]

I like what you have to say here because yes it is a bad philosophy going around today teaching people that what our Lord Jesus said in the gospel books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are not for us.

I dealt with a couple of them just the other day on here who tried to state that the cross changed everything, and tried to treat me as stupid by saying don't you know there was a change from the OT to the NT. I responded back to them of course there was changes as anybody who studies the word will know this, however what the Lord taught was not OT teachings.

They were instructions for all believers under the new covenant, and I tried to show them all the places where the epistles from the Apostles expounded and confirmed everything the Lord said.

As for the law we also must be careful in these discussions because some believe there is only one set of laws.
There are actually two and that is the written ordinances of the Mosaic laws (613) and the perfect law of liberty (Christs teachings and commands).

I have also seen this statement by many on here and others I have talked to, " Jesus fulfilled the law on the cross."

But is that what Jesus really said or did? No, He said by following the two commandments of; Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and Love your neighbor as yourself hangs all the law and the prophets and fulfills it.

Apostle Paul also states the same thing in Romans 13:9-11.

It surprises me the blatant twisting or ignoring of scripture now days to make a doctrine fit, as they pretty much make the narrow path through the Lord unto eternal life into a broad road. Lord Jesus though says the broad way leads to destruction.

I have noticed that many people don't really know that they are mistaken because they have not researched what they have been taught. Therefore, they think they are 'right" and how dare anyone suggest otherwise.

I don't usually think of "There are actually two and that is the written ordinances of the Mosaic laws (613) and the perfect law of liberty (Christs teachings and commands)" this way. I believe the law as given to Moses is inextricably intertwined and essentially the same as "the perfect law of liberty" because Yeshua did not, could not, would not teach anything different from what His Father, Yahweh, instructed. But, since 2 Peter 1:20 says what it does, it seems we should be able to come to an agreement on this subject. It may be we differ on no more than how we say what is essentially the same thing.

 

[FreeNChrist]

The entire Bible is the Word of God and, according to His own Words, important for all of us to live by. (Deuteronomy 8:3, Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4) There is serious departure from God’s instructions today and very lame excuses given by people for that departure, such as it's a bunch of boring rituals made obsolete by Christ's sacrifice on the cross and way too negative with all of the “thou shalt nots” in it. It is obvious by such a foolish statement that they do not even know the law.

For a long time I have wished that someone that Christians consider reputable would teach the importance of the entire Bible rather than the separation of the Old Testament from the New Testament, as being all that matters now. A scholar would be listened to much more so than an ordinary person, theoretically anyway, and because of that, could do so much to help 21[SUP]st[/SUP] century Christians understand more fully how the Bible is one big story, all parts intertwined with all of the other parts. (See 2 Peter 1:20). And now it is happening! A very reputable professor at Wheaton College is doing just that and I am so excited about it.

Could this be the “revival” I have heard so many say will happen just before the Lion of Judah returns?

A return to the Law would not be a revival, it would be a regression.

 

[just-me]

A return to the Law would not be a revival, it would be a regression.

What is departing from it then? Didn't Israel regress? It cannot save, but it sure can be beneficial before and after salvation. Doesn't the Torah show us the character (name) of God? and are we not instructed to not take His name in vain. Of course if we get rid of it we won't need to know it. And then that might have the repercussions of Him not knowing us. Think about that for a time.

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew 7:23

Could Jesus be our Savior if He wasn't exactly what His own Father wanted Him to be? The law is also a substantial part of Jesus' name for Jesus created all things. Colossians 1:10-17
[SUP]10 [/SUP]That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

One may question then; "Who actually gave the law to Israel via Moses?"

 

[Shoshanah]

A return to the Law would not be a revival, it would be a regression.

That is what I mean when I say people don't know the law. The "law" as given by God is a physical picture of what we as believers in Christ spiritually are - well, should be - living. I am not suggesting we go back to performing the physical rituals of the law as the Levites were instructed, but we are the temple now and God did not nullify or "delete" anything from His magnificent plan which has been in existence since before Adam and Eve sinned. That is a common reaction to the uneducated pertaining to the "law" though - I have often been accused of wanting to be back "under" the law and supposedly want to kill sheep for blood sacrifices. It just doesn't apply! But I think I will continue to post some sensible explanations to enlighten those who desire to truly learn and don't automatically dismiss what they don't know anything about as being worthless.

 

[KennethC]

I have noticed that many people don't really know that they are mistaken because they have not researched what they have been taught. Therefore, they think they are 'right" and how dare anyone suggest otherwise.

I don't usually think of "There are actually two and that is the written ordinances of the Mosaic laws (613) and the perfect law of liberty (Christs teachings and commands)" this way. I believe the law as given to Moses is inextricably intertwined and essentially the same as "the perfect law of liberty" because Yeshua did not, could not, would not teach anything different from what His Father, Yahweh, instructed. But, since 2 Peter 1:20 says what it does, it seems we should be able to come to an agreement on this subject. It may be we differ on no more than how we say what is essentially the same thing.

Here is the thing though that gets overlooked and that is that the 613 written ordinances of the Mosaic law is what is being discussed by the Apostles in Acts 15, and if new believers (especially Gentile) are to follow those ordinances.

Acts 15:10, 19, and 28 they came to the agreement that no we do not have to follow those ordinances, and in verses 20, 29 they gave the only few that still apply; things offered to idols, from blood, things strangled, and from sexual immorality.

This however is where people then get confused as well because then they use well what about the 10 Commandments ???

The 10 Commandments if you look at how the Jews applied them they were looked at as both written ordinances and also God's moral laws. The moral aspect still applies under the new covenant but the written ordinance form does not, meaning that if one breaks one of those commandments the punishment is no longer by the law but will be handle at judgment.

The written ordinance of the law brought death for sin because the flesh is weak, but the perfect law of liberty (salvation through Christ) brings eternal life.


The OT covenant Jews focused to much on the written ordinances of the Mosaic law, but the Lord showed us an easier way of instead of focusing on all those ordinances to obey. Instead walk in love, mercy, and forgiveness !!!

If what one teaches does not fall under those three standards for all people then they are not operating in the Spirit.

The Mosaic written ordinances taught an eye for eye, and a tooth for a tooth, and also part of that was blood for blood.
But Lord Jesus in the new covenant says no to this !!!

 

[KennethC]

A return to the Law would not be a revival, it would be a regression.

To the Mosaic written ordinances I would agree with you, but there is still a perfect law of liberty (Christ's teachings and commands) that is spoken of in the bible that believers in Him will uphold by the faith.

 

[Yet]

I like what you have to say here because yes it is a bad philosophy going around today teaching people that what our Lord Jesus said in the gospel books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are not for us.

I dealt with a couple of them just the other day on here who tried to state that the cross changed everything, and tried to treat me as stupid by saying don't you know there was a change from the OT to the NT. I responded back to them of course there was changes as anybody who studies the word will know this, however what the Lord taught was not OT teachings.

They were instructions for all believers under the new covenant, and I tried to show them all the places where the epistles from the Apostles expounded and confirmed everything the Lord said.

As for the law we also must be careful in these discussions because some believe there is only one set of laws.
There are actually two and that is the written ordinances of the Mosaic laws (613) and the perfect law of liberty (Christs teachings and commands).

I have also seen this statement by many on here and others I have talked to, " Jesus fulfilled the law on the cross."

But is that what Jesus really said or did? No, He said by following the two commandments of; Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and Love your neighbor as yourself hangs all the law and the prophets and fulfills it.

Apostle Paul also states the same thing in Romans 13:9-11.

It surprises me the blatant twisting or ignoring of scripture now days to make a doctrine fit, as they pretty much make the narrow path through the Lord unto eternal life into a broad road. Lord Jesus though says the broad way leads to destruction.

I was going to write something here but God just healed my heart. Got to go catch a dove and take to the priest for an offering. Bye!

 

[ember]

yeah...I don't know....I guess I have been studying on my own for so many years now, I am missing the dearth of interest in the OT? However, I would think you must absolutely need to have a good knowledge of the OT in order to truly appreciate/understand the NT

I have always gravitated to teachers that seem to expound on the whole Bible rather than fragments

I like what you have to say here because yes it is a bad philosophy going around today teaching people that what our Lord Jesus said in the gospel books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are not for us.

Kenneth...would you please point where this is being said? I don't mean tell me which people...I mean I am not sure how people would think Jesus words are OT? other than that the NT was not written yet, what would their theory on that be?

I'm not really of the OSAS camp...what I do not agree with, is that when or if you sin, you become somehow unsaved or that you can somehow live a sinless life...that is you stop sinning

anyway, I would appreciate knowing more about how people seem to think Jesus words do not apply

I must have grown up in a void somewhere because I keep hearing or reading teachings on this particular site that I have not come across before

thanks

 

[just-me]

I'm not very interested in too many threads, but this one looks as if it could be quit interesting.

 

[just-me]

I was going to write something here but God just healed my heart. Got to go catch a dove and take to the priest for an offering. Bye!

Does anybody know where I can find some hyssop and a lamb? I'm trying to prepare for passover. Thank God it's not until next year. I live in a subdivision so I need to prepare my neighbors to not turn me in for animal cruelty when the time comes.

 

[posthuman]

For a long time I have wished that someone that Christians consider reputable would teach the importance of the entire Bible rather than the separation of the Old Testament from the New Testament

you certainly don't have to find yourself among those being chastised in the epistle to the Galatians in order to be taught the whole scripture.

the Lord has 7,000 reserved who teach what you sound like you think no one is teaching.
the most widely played Christian radio broadcaster in the world, for example, has been taking untold millions of listeners in a host of languages through the entire bible in a 5-year-long study for almost 50 years straight:

mp3's --

http://www.ttb.org/contentpages/21793/e63bfac6-600d-436f-8231-5fcadefa77d6/5-YearSeriesinMP3.aspx
​

notes & outlines --

http://www.ttb.org/contentpages/21793/87fd5499-608a-4bf9-981a-131177aef300/Notesandamp;Outlines.aspx
​

come & ride the 'Bible Bus' with us!

do it. all the resources there are free.

 

[KennethC]

yeah...I don't know....I guess I have been studying on my own for so many years now, I am missing the dearth of interest in the OT? However, I would think you must absolutely need to have a good knowledge of the OT in order to truly appreciate/understand the NT

I have always gravitated to teachers that seem to expound on the whole Bible rather than fragments



Kenneth...would you please point where this is being said? I don't mean tell me which people...I mean I am not sure how people would think Jesus words are OT? other than that the NT was not written yet, what would their theory on that be?

I'm not really of the OSAS camp...what I do not agree with, is that when or if you sin, you become somehow unsaved or that you can somehow live a sinless life...that is you stop sinning

anyway, I would appreciate knowing more about how people seem to think Jesus words do not apply

I must have grown up in a void somewhere because I keep hearing or reading teachings on this particular site that I have not come across before

thanks

There are such teachings going around such as that called the Paulinian gospel, and it teaches people that nothing the Lord taught or commanded applies to new covenant believers. It also does away with other books of the NT such and Hebrews, James, 1 John, and half of Revelation.

It mainly teaches that only Paul's epistles are to be followed and instructs that Paul taught a different gospel then what Jesus taught.

As I said before these as well as others who are influenced in this doctrine or one's like it have said statements like;

a) What Jesus taught was done away with at the cross...........

b) The cross changed everything........

c) Jesus teachings were only for the Jews...........


I do not follow the doctrines of eternal security (started by Augustine in 4th century), OSAS (coined by Calvin in 1500's), or sinless perfection (started by John Wesley in the 1700's).

I have by the Holy Spirit's guidance found flaws in each one of those doctrines !!!

As for the falling away or departing from the faith in the Lord it is a sound biblical teaching, and even the Apostle Paul speaks on this more then anybody. Even in Acts 20:28-31 Apostle Paul states that he warned believers day and night for three years in tears about falling away to false teaching and not being spared at the end.

Galatians are another group that Paul said left the faith in the Lord to seek out justification by the Mosaic laws do to false teachers leading them astray. Paul tells them that Christ has become of no effect to them ( no remission of sins), and that they have fallen from God's grace. (Galatians 5:4)

You have to receive both in the faith of the Lord to be reconciled to God and receive eternal life.

 

[KennethC]

I'm not very interested in too many threads, but this one looks as if it could be quit interesting.

Yes it can be interesting as long as it stays away from debating about the Mosaic laws applying or not applying.

We have way to many threads on that already, but I do like the discussion of facing the truth that only part of God's truth is being taught in churches now days.

I see so many teachings of His grace but hardly in mention of the warnings the bible also gives, and usually the teachings on grace are a watered down broad teaching that places all that call Jesus Lord saved. But Jesus clearly says not all that call Him their Lord will receive eternal life.

 

[tanach]

The entire Bible is the Word of God and, according to His own Words, important for all of us to live by. (Deuteronomy 8:3, Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4) There is serious departure from God’s instructions today and very lame excuses given by people for that departure, such as it's a bunch of boring rituals made obsolete by Christ's sacrifice on the cross and way too negative with all of the “thou shalt nots” in it. It is obvious by such a foolish statement that they do not even know the law.

For a long time I have wished that someone that Christians consider reputable would teach the importance of the entire Bible rather than the separation of the Old Testament from the New Testament, as being all that matters now. A scholar would be listened to much more so than an ordinary person, theoretically anyway, and because of that, could do so much to help 21[SUP]st[/SUP] century Christians understand more fully how the Bible is one big story, all parts intertwined with all of the other parts. (See 2 Peter 1:20). And now it is happening! A very reputable professor at Wheaton College is doing just that and I am so excited about it.

Could this be the “revival” I have heard so many say will happen just before the Lion of Judah returns?

Orthodox Messianic Judaism: Stop the Press! Mainline Christian Scholars Beginning to Promote the Torah of Moses
Daniel Block | Theopedia

I agree with you to some extent, but one has to be careful which laws and commandments we obey and ignore. It is pretty obvious that the rituals relating to the temple are not binding on Christians, or at least I hope no one sacrifices Sheep and oxen in their back yard. I would advise not to stone a disobedient Son to death, however much you might be tempted. We need guidance from the Holy Spirit and some common sense when reading the Bible.

 

[just-me]

There are such teachings going around such as that called the Paulinian gospel, and it teaches people that nothing the Lord taught or commanded applies to new covenant believers. It also does away with other books of the NT such and Hebrews, James, 1 John, and half of Revelation.

It mainly teaches that only Paul's epistles are to be followed and instructs that Paul taught a different gospel then what Jesus taught.

As I said before these as well as others who are influenced in this doctrine or one's like it have said statements like;

a) What Jesus taught was done away with at the cross...........

b) The cross changed everything........

c) Jesus teachings were only for the Jews...........


I do not follow the doctrines of eternal security (started by Augustine in 4th century), OSAS (coined by Calvin in 1500's), or sinless perfection (started by John Wesley in the 1700's).

I have by the Holy Spirit's guidance found flaws in each one of those doctrines !!!

As for the falling away or departing from the faith in the Lord it is a sound biblical teaching, and even the Apostle Paul speaks on this more then anybody. Even in Acts 20:28-31 Apostle Paul states that he warned believers day and night for three years in tears about falling away to false teaching and not being spared at the end.

Galatians are another group that Paul said left the faith in the Lord to seek out justification by the Mosaic laws do to false teachers leading them astray. Paul tells them that Christ has become of no effect to them ( no remission of sins), and that they have fallen from God's grace. (Galatians 5:4)

You have to receive both in the faith of the Lord to be reconciled to God and receive eternal life.

Adhering to the law in the spiritual sense is the correct why to follow those teachings. It's the carnal mind that is incapable of comprehending the original truth as intended. If the law is seen as only physical then we have fallen from grace, but if we desire grace by rejection of the law, we find ourselves as being lawless. Is this not a conundrum? Only the truth will make us free. John 8:32

Concerning the rejection of the 4 Gospels. Those people had determined the reason for teaching this was that the New Testament wasn't in effect until Jesus died. It stems from the original teaching that the Old testament doesn't belong in the New Testament. The correct phrase "Renewed Covenant" has been rejected by many doctrines for 100s of years, but it's the correct one.

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. (Hebrews 9:16-17)

 

[ember]

KennethC;2258256There are such teachings going around such as that called the Paulinian gospel, and it teaches people that nothing the Lord taught or commanded applies to new covenant believers. It also does away with other books of the NT such and Hebrews, James, 1 John, and half of Revelation.

I guess I grew up simple and people have made simple complicated. I was taught, in a Brethern church, that everything Jesus said was important and also, how the OT is an integral part of the NT...actually, how can you really understand the NT without the OT? Maybe the gaps there lead people into believing what you are referring to?

It mainly teaches that only Paul's epistles are to be followed and instructs that Paul taught a different gospel then what Jesus taught.

huh...Paul must be in big time trouble then since he basically would have cursed himself regarding what he wrote about teaching 'another gospel' would be a case of 'with your own words'

As I said before these as well as others who are influenced in this doctrine or one's like it have said statements like;

a) What Jesus taught was done away with at the cross...........

b) The cross changed everything........

c) Jesus teachings were only for the Jews.........well that kind of sounds like something I heard in one of the more infamous threads lately, that tongues were only for the Jews and some kind of sign to them and then, apparently, there comes a whole other teaching I am not really familiar with involving something called 'client nations' and how Israel was a client nation (of God) but are no longer and some think the US is now God's client nation


I do not follow the doctrines of eternal security (started by Augustine in 4th century), OSAS (coined by Calvin in 1500's), or sinless perfection (started by John Wesley in the 1700's).

well good...IMO, that makes a discussion about these subjects far more doable...thanks...I had you pegged as someone who does believe those things...but after reading your posts in the already mentionned thread (which became a mob scene in which a couple of us were stoned...I got resurrected though lol!) I began to think I could be wrong...so..also, reading some of what seems to me hateful posts to you by the same people over and over, they could be wrong also


I have by the Holy Spirit's guidance found flaws in each one of those doctrines !!!

As for the falling away or departing from the faith in the Lord it is a sound biblical teaching, and even the Apostle Paul speaks on this more then anybody. Even in Acts 20:28-31 Apostle Paul states that he warned believers day and night for three years in tears about falling away to false teaching and not being spared at the end.

I agree...I just did not agree with the if you sin you are no longer saved and if you are saved you do not sin...and I thought you were saying that also

Galatians are another group that Paul said left the faith in the Lord to seek out justification by the Mosaic laws do to false teachers leading them astray. Paul tells them that Christ has become of no effect to them ( no remission of sins), and that they have fallen from God's grace. (Galatians 5:4)

Right. Having begun in the spirit, are you now going to continue in the flesh...right

You have to receive both in the faith of the Lord to be reconciled to God and receive eternal life.

ok...not sure how you mean the above sentence?