Replacement/Supersessionism Theology,Why it Matters

[JGIG]

That means send them money so they can kill more Palestinians and Syrians.

Is your name kayla? Was the question asked of you? Would you appreciate me answering questions asked of you in my own words and opinions? I dont think so. That was extremely rude.

I'm sorry, I did't know that I had to respond only to comments directed at me.

You don't. This is a discussion forum. Any of us are free to chime in when we feel we have something to offer in the discussion.

I may not agree with your point, but I support your right to make it.

kaylagrl, you might want to loosen up on the reigns a bit. This is a discussion forum. You know . . . for people to discuss stuff.

 

[kaylagrl]

The remnant of Israel are Jews who accept Christ. Not Jews who don't even care to know who Christ is.



The Church is the New Israel according to Saint Paul (Galatians 6:16). The Jews are not God's chosen people. They denied Jesus Christ. Whoever accepts Jesus Christ as Messiah (whether Jew or Gentile) becomes part of the new family of God.



You are the one that is being historically ignorant by applying to the Church Fathers a modern term such "antisemitism"; a term which refers to the savage hate that Hitler had against Jews as a race. The Church Fathers spoke against Jews as a religious and spiritual entity that are blind to the truth and stick to their religious ways. The Church Fathers called "Jew" (mening judaiser, or Jewish understanding) not only the Jews but even the Christians who read the Bible in a strictly literal sense and refuse the freedom in the Holy Spirit. He was outraged by their rejection of the Messiah and he called them "pigs", a term no Christian would use today, but in his historical context, when Jew leaders had polemics with Christians, that was part not only of Chrysostom rethorics but also of Jews. Jews themselves didn't call Christians nice names. Also, if Chysostom was irremediably anti-jewish why would he praise the Jew prophets and Jew apostles? He rather speaks against their illness to accept Christ as the Messiah.

A lot of people want to make Christianity responsible for the holocaust. It seems to me that your entire thread implies the same thing. It is simply not fair and not true. Unless you have a lazy mind that likes to simplify complex realities.

You have to study the Church Fathers in their historical context not with the mentality of a postmodern person.



Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of God's promises to the Jews and only a few accepted Him. The rest spit Him in the face and crucified Him.

What does the fact that I don't believe Jews are God's chosen people have to do with my love for them? Why do you think I don't love them? I met a Jewish woman this august and she liked me and I liked her. It is possible that we liked each other because we didn't discuss sensitive things such as Jews and Christians.



I read it. Could you give me verses that prove me wrong? So far I gave verses that prove we are Abraham's offspring and thus granted in the new family of God: the Christian family. I also gave you a verse from Galatians that says we are God'd chosen people, the true Israel. Only those who accept Jesus Christ are God's chosen people, not the Jews who reject Jesus Christ. That is the New Covenant of God with all people. Whoever accepts Jesus Christ can take part of God's covenant. Not because of their bloodline or race or religious status, but because of what Jesus Christ did for us all.



You elevate the Jews based on their religion and thus deny the New Testament that prohibits boasting in God on a religious exclusivity. The only boast that is allowed is through faith in Jesus Christ. Faith that Jews don't have.



Whoever elevates a people on the ground of their religion instead on what Jesus Christ did for the world is a denier of Christ's salvific sacrifice.



So far, Jews are very resistant to the Holy Spirit. God doesn't force anyone to believe in Him. You come to Him freely.

You are right: God did not forsaken the Jews, it is the other way around, they forsaken God in a very coward way.



So, do you. Each time someone says that the Church is the New Israel you come and link this with replacement theology and with holocaust. That is your strategy to make people feel bad about their beliefs. It is a coward strategy and un-Christlike.

It is not replacement theology, it is fulfillment theology. Why are you so angry that people believe God has done for Israel what He promised to do for them and now Gentiles too are invited to participate in the blessing?

The point I am making about the Jews is that they rejected God while more Gentiles accepted Him.

“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”

Quote "The remnant of Israel are Jews who accept Christ."

Yes,we agree here!

Quote "Not Jews who don't even care to know who Christ is."

Ok according to Romans 11, I believe Jews are blinded from believing in Christ. The Bible says they will recognize their Messiah in the end. So yes,now they dont believe but will in the end. According to Romans.

We've already gone over the church replacing the Jews. I dont believe that.

Quote "You are the one that is being historically ignorant by applying to the Church Fathers a modern term such "antisemitism"; a term which refers to the savage hate that Hitler had against Jews as a race."

Antisemitism has been a term used before Hitler came along. And it not only applies to Hitlers usage of it.He didnt invent the term.Antisemitism - is prejudice against, hatred of, or discrimination against Jews as an ethnic, religious, or racial group. Wiki.

If you think what Chysostom,Luther and others said was not antisemitic you have a big problem. Now you're saying that Jews caused Christians to talk this way and to persecute them.So its still the Jews fault. I see...

Quote "A lot of people want to make Christianity responsible for the holocaust. It seems to me that your entire thread implies the same thing. It is simply not fair and not true. Unless you have a lazy mind that likes to simplify complex realities. "

So because I disagree you're going to attack me personally? Tell me I have a lazy mind? I dont and didnt blame Christianity for the Holocaust but I do believe the Replacement Theology led to persecution of Jews. I believe some churches believed it was ok to persecute the Jews and some did sit back and allowed Hitler to do what he did to the Jews. Yes some were culpable. But never said Christians caused the Holocaust.

Quote "You have to study the Church Fathers in their historical context not with the mentality of a postmodern person"

Ok using that logic the South isnt responsible for slaves and calling people the "N" word or believing they were property. Because taken in historical context it wasnt considered wrong at the time.

Quote "Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of God's promises to the Jews and only a few accepted Him. The rest spit Him in the face and crucified Him. "

Romans 11,Romans 11,Romans 11,Romans 11......

Quote "What does the fact that I don't believe Jews are God's chosen people have to do with my love for them? Why do you think I don't love them? "

Because of your anger in your answers.

Quote "I met a Jewish woman this august and she liked me and I liked her. It is possible that we liked each other because we didn't discuss sensitive things such as Jews and Christians."

Did you witness to her? Share the good news? If not why not? Can God save a Jew?

Quote "I read it. Could you give me verses that prove me wrong? So far I gave verses that prove we are Abraham's offspring and thus granted in the new family of God: the Christian family. I also gave you a verse from Galatians that says we are God'd chosen people, the true Israel. Only those who accept Jesus Christ are God's chosen people, not the Jews who reject Jesus Christ. That is the New Covenant of God with all people. Whoever accepts Jesus Christ can take part of God's covenant. Not because of their bloodline or race or religious status, but because of what Jesus Christ did for us all.

Not going over it again from the beginning. You know my point of view,I know yours. Whatever verse I give you'll say it doesnt say that.No purpose in rehashing it.

Quote "You elevate the Jews based on their religion"

God has called them His chosen and the apple of His eye,I didnt elevate them. Take it up with God.

Quote " Faith that Jews don't have."

Romans 11 and it also says Gentiles should not puff themselves up.

Quote "Whoever elevates a people on the ground of their religion"

I didnt.

Quote "instead on what Jesus Christ did for the world is a denier of Christ's salvific sacrifice."

Nope,Jews will be saved the same way we were.

Quote "You are right: God did not forsaken the Jews, it is the other way around, they forsaken God in a very coward way."

Gods promises are unconditional. He hasnt forsaken them,He still has a plan for them. You were saved by grace and His mercy,you seem to have forgotten that you were a sinner to.


Quote "Each time someone says that the Church is the New Israel you come and link this with replacement theology and with holocaust."

Replacement theology (also known as supersessionism) essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of replacement theology believe the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel. All the different views of the relationship between the church and Israel can be divided into two camps: either the church is a continuation of Israel (replacement/covenant theology), or the church is completely different and distinct from Israel (dispensationalism/premillennialism).

Replacement Theology and antisemitism,google it and see what comes up.

Quote "That is your strategy to make people feel bad about their beliefs."

And yours isnt? There are threads all over this forum on how Catholicism is heresy. Are we trying to make Catholics feel bad? Im not,I just believe they are wrong according to the Bible.

Quote "It is a coward strategy and un-Christlike."

Personal attacks again. I could say the same of you.

Quote "It is not replacement theology, it is fulfillment theology."

Ahhh finally you tell the truth!!

Supersessionism, also called replacement theology or fulfillment theology, is a Christian theological view on the current status of the church in relation to the Jewish people and Judaism. Wiki

Quote"Why are you so angry that people believe God has done for Israel what He promised to do for them and now Gentiles too are invited to participate in the blessing? "

Not true according to the Bible. Specific promises were made to the Jews and God will fulfill them.

Quote"The point I am making about the Jews is that they rejected God while more Gentiles accepted Him. "

Oh my land! What do you not understand!? Yes more Gentiles have accepted Him! Romans 11 says the Jews are BLINDED until the Gentiles have come in. THEN they will believe! Thats MY POINT! smh.

 

[kaylagrl]

You don't. This is a discussion forum. Any of us are free to chime in when we feel we have something to offer in the discussion.

I may not agree with your point, but I support your right to make it.

kaylagrl, you might want to loosen up on the reigns a bit. This is a discussion forum. You know . . . for people to discuss stuff.

He answered a question specifically directed to me and answered FOR me.Thats not discussion,thats rude.

 

[JGIG]

Continuing on....


Quote "No, it didn't. It may have formed core tenets of some belief systems, but it's not a common assumption by Christians and it's not Biblical.

No its not a common assumption by Christians today,although it is making a comeback I notice. It was certainly a core tenant of the Catholic church. And many church fathers believed this way. And I agree,its not Biblical.Hold on to your hat your about to get ripped apart for saying that.

Quote "One of the core tenets of Biblical Christianity is that the Body of Christ includes the concept that Jew and Gentile are one in Christ, entering into Covenant with God in Christ."

The Jews are still Gods chosen people,the apple of His eye.He still has a plan for the Jews. They are being gathered once again,God is bringing them back. His promise to them never changed,it was unconditional.

Quote"When someone invokes Hitler and The Inquisition into the mix, telling us that those guys represent the Body of Christ, it's because their position is weak and needs an emotional 'punching up'."

I didnt say they represented the body of Christ.Please read back.I said they represented a false theology,replacement,that has been used to persecute the Jews. I did not say all churches nor all Christians. The Danish Christians did not believe replacement theology and saved many Jews during the Holocaust as did others. So dont put words in my mouth please.


Quote "Where are you seeing 'Jews under attack' on this forum?"

Dont recall saying Jews were under attack. In the OP I said I saw posts that worry me,like the thread saying the Star of David is an occult symbol. Ive discussed in other threads with people who believe Replacement Theology and get nasty if I say it is a false doctrine. So I decided to post on this false belief to let those who didnt know that it is indeed a false theology.

Quote "Where are you seeing Christians on this forum persecuting Jews?"

Well,your honor,I didnt say people were persecuting Jews here.I said if you believe Replacement Theology heresy that it is false,that it has had a history of antisemitism behind it and that we as Christians should not support it.Never accused anyone of beating Jews in the street.

Quote "Where are you seeing anti-Semitism on this forum?"

I reported about two weeks ago on someone who was being antisemitic and were consequently banned. And as I said,if you believe Replacement Theology you are backing antisemitism.

Quote "You have presented some half-truths attaching them to all Christians"

That Miss or Mrs. is baloney and a lie. You will not put words in my mouth that I did not say!! I never accused every Christian of anything. Nor did I lie and give half truths. You will not call me a liar! Folks who know me here know I am not a liar!

Quote "when only some Christians adhere to that theology:

Ok,once again,try and LISTEN !!!!!! CLEARLY not ALL Christians believe this theology. I dont,many on here dont and have backed up what I am saying. So LISTEN instead of attacking first,how bout that.


Quote " have claimed attacks, persecution, and anti-Semitism on this forum without offering proof."

NO I HAVENT! I HAVE said Replacement Theology is antisemitic. And that its history is antisemitic. My proof is those arguing that the church has replaced the Jews. THAT IS MY PROOF! Read back through the thread. The REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY is WRONG. Now are all those that believe this theology antisemitic? Well that is why I posted the history and truth of the theology so people could understand it is wrong. It is a wrong theology,my point all along.NEVER accused ALL Christians of anything!!!!


Quote "wondering just what you're trying to accomplish here . . .

Well I dont answer to you,now do I.But since you are accusing me of being a liar and having nefarious reasons I will state again for people who seem to read with their eyes closed...

1. According to Romans 11 the Jews {remnant} will be saved.
2.They will "see Him who they have pierced" they will believe on Jesus and be saved the same way Gentiles are.
3.Gods promises to the Jews are unconditional.
4.God is not done with the Jews.They are the apple of His eye.We are to bless,pray for peace of the Jews.
5.Replacement Theology is a false Theology. The church has not replaced nor become Jews.Jews will still receive what God promised them.
6.SOME CHRISTIAN churches and SOME CHURCH FATHERS who believed and taught Replacement Theology perpetuated antisemitism and persecution of the Jews. READ HISTORY PLEASE.

Does that clear it up for everyone?!!! Or do I have to defend myself once again from being a liar???

I never once called you a liar, kaylagrl.

You posted an OP clearly trying to link Replacement Theology/supercessionism to Christians. You did not clarify, nor did you post examples of your assertions about the 'scary' posts you say you've observed here at CC. No, you made both sweeping generalizations about a theology, and clearly tried to tie it to 'Christians' who you say scare YOU.

Well, as a Christian, I take exception to that methodology.

Also, this exchange has me curious about who/what you think believers are grafted into:

Originally Posted by Tintin

Um. What about Jesus and His sacrifice? Believers living in light of the New Covenant, not the Old Covenant.

Originally Posted by kaylagrl

We have been grafted in.



Into what? Or Who?

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

You don't. This is a discussion forum. Any of us are free to chime in when we feel we have something to offer in the discussion.

I may not agree with your point, but I support your right to make it.

kaylagrl, you might want to loosen up on the reigns a bit. This is a discussion forum. You know . . . for people to discuss stuff.

He answered a question specifically directed to me and answered FOR me.Thats not discussion,thats rude.

I have no desire to get into a tit for tat regarding who is or is not allowed to contribute to any part of a thread - it's a silly argument to have on a PUBLIC DISCUSSION FORUM.

It's my observation that you've chosen to take offense where merely an opinion was offered. On a public discussion forum.

 

[wolfwint]

What you have to realise is Isreal is now a mixture of all the tribes and people, without distinction. Revelation is about people who have died, not necessarily still living and most of the book is figurative, so it could mean many different alternatives.

Jesus brought some basic principles to earth. Learn how to love from the heart and act righteously. Neither of these things are currently going on in the nation of Israel, and people no longer have a vision of doing the right thing, it is just getting more embittered and insane as time goes on.

Sorry PeterJens, this answered not my question. Who determines what is figurative ore not? It makes no sense to see Rev 7,4-8 and 14, 1-5 figurative. And there is also no proof for this. Obviously this has not happend till now right. So it has to come in future.

Fact is: present the Israel are rejecting Jesus as Messiah! In this you are right.
But this time will have be an end (f.e. Book of Joel talk about)
So in between all are adoptet in Gods family, who are putting their faith in Jesus Christ! No matter jews ore gentile! Gods plan for the volk Israel and for us who are his children, is different and not to compare with one each another.

To say, that God has rejectet his people Jacob/Israel for ever is not biblical, because we have to see the whole bible from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[kaylagrl]

I never once called you a liar, kaylagrl.

You posted an OP clearly trying to link Replacement Theology/supercessionism to Christians. You did not clarify, nor did you post examples of your assertions about the 'scary' posts you say you've observed here at CC. No, you made both sweeping generalizations about a theology, and clearly tried to tie it to 'Christians' who you say scare YOU.

Well, as a Christian, I take exception to that methodology.

Also, this exchange has me curious about who/what you think believers are grafted into:

Originally Posted by Tintin

Um. What about Jesus and His sacrifice? Believers living in light of the New Covenant, not the Old Covenant.

Originally Posted by kaylagrl

We have been grafted in.



Into what? Or Who?

-JGIG

Quote "I never once called you a liar, kaylagrl."

You said I was presenting half truths. Either way it doesnt matter. You did,you didnt call me a liar. Doesnt matter,over it.

Quote "You posted an OP clearly trying to link Replacement Theology/supercessionism to Christians."

To some Christians yes I defiantly did. Christians have and do believe in this theology. I wasnt trying to,I was! I was trying to warn those who dont know that it is a false theology and its history of antisemitism.

Quote"You did not clarify, nor did you post examples of your assertions about the 'scary' posts you say you've observed here at CC."

This isnt a court of law! There are 100s of pages of discussion here.You dont think Im going to sit down and comb through posts to link you to? You're doubting what Im saying then search for yourself,the onus is on you. Down at the bottom of the page it says "similar threads" look through them and see their discussions.

Quote "No, you made both sweeping generalizations about a theology, and clearly tried to tie it to 'Christians' who you say scare YOU."

I didnt make sweeping generalizations. I said directly replacement theory is false.I didnt say all Christians believe in it.Now my OP says...

Im seeing many posts here lately that worry me. {Not scare,worry.}

Do you know that it was Pope Pius VII who began this persecution of the Jews? And that some of the church Fathers before him were antisemitic?

....it greatly disturbs me to see "Christians" so called also persecuting Jews. {So called,not all Christians,so called}

Quote "Also, this exchange has me curious about who/what you think believers are grafted into..."

Romans 11 says we are grafted into the root.Salvation is first to the Jews then to the Gentiles.We are branches grafted in.According to Romans.

 

[kaylagrl]

I have no desire to get into a tit for tat regarding who is or is not allowed to contribute to any part of a thread - it's a silly argument to have on a PUBLIC DISCUSSION FORUM.

It's my observation that you've chosen to take offense where merely an opinion was offered. On a public discussion forum.

Originally Posted by kaylagrl

and why Christians should support,not persecute,the Jews.



What do you mean by "support?"

It seems that not persecuting people should be the default Christian position...for everyone. It's not simply that Christians shouldnt persecute Jews; Christians shouldnt persecute ANYONE.

But "support" may be a different matter, depending on what you mean by the term.


KJV1611 ...That means send them money so they can kill more Palestinians and Syrians.

Question was asked of me. It was answered for me by KJV1611. Yes its a public forum but you dont get to answer for the other person. Thats not discussion.

Quote "It's my observation that you've chosen to take offense where merely an opinion was offered.

Great I'll start answering every question asked of you with my opinion of you and your views. No one cares about discussion.You dont answer for another person.

 

[crossnote]

I don't deny that but if you read all Romans you will see that Saint Paul explains that the privileged status of Israel is not a permanent one but was a mean through which God was going to accomplish His plan of salvation for the entire world. And Saint Paul also links the election of Israel with vessels of wrath thorough which, paradoxically, a lot of blessing would come out from for the Gentiles.

I'm not sure then why you responded since their they were broken off only to be later grafted back into the fruitful tree they were broken off from.

 

[crossnote]

I always assume people actually know the whole context or if they don't they go and check out of curiosity and thirst for knowledge.



Actually, it makes no sense if he only refers to the believing Jews since he speaks to the Galatians who were non-Jews but thought they had to get circumcised in order to be part of God's covenant because circumcision was a mean to enter God's covenant. So, he explains them that circumcision is a religious, carnal thing that not only doesn't save but also tend to boast on this outward sign rather on the cross of Jesus Christ.

He ends his sermon by saying that all what counts is the new creation and he says "peace and mercy to all who follow this rule - to the Israel of God". He doesn't say AND to the Israel of God. He implies that those who follow the rule are the Israel of God. The Jews get circumcised because they don't believe in the cross. The new creation must not get circumcised because that means you boast in circumcision and religion instead of boasting in Christ. So, the new creation is the Israel of God. And who is the new creation? Jews as a nation and religion or people who accept Jesus Christ as their Savior?

Not Circumcision but the New Creation

11 See what large letters I use as I write to you with my own hand!
12 Those who want to impress people by means of the flesh are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13 Not even those who are circumcised keep the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your circumcision in the flesh. 14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which[a] the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. 16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to[b] the Israel of God.
17 From now on, let no one cause me trouble, for I bear on my body the marksof Jesus.
18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers and sisters. Amen.

And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. ESV
(Gal 6:16)

And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. KJV
(Gal 6:16)

And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. Galatians 6:16 NASB

and as many as by this rule do walk--peace upon them, and kindness, and on the Israel of God!
(Gal 6:16) Youngs Literal

And as many as order their lives by this rule, shalom upon them and mercy, and upon the Isra'el of God! Galatians 6:16 CJB

May peace come to all those who follow this standard, and mercy to the Israel of God! Galatians 6:16 HCSB

And all who shall regulate their lives by this principle--may peace and mercy be given to them--and to the true Israel of God. Galatians 6:16 WEY

And who euere suwen this reule, pees on hem, and merci, and on Israel of God. Galatians 6:16 WYCliffe

So the first clause deals with the Church "And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them" and the second clause believing Jews (Israel) , "and upon the Israel of God". It's simply dishonest to substitute "the Church" for "the Israel of God"...that is a form of replacement theology.

 

[crossnote]

Galatians 6:16 actually says "peace upon them καί mercy καί upon the Israel of GOD". The Greek word καί also means also, which in this context makes sense.

And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy also upon the Israel of God. Galatians 6:16​

It unifies them and the Israel of GOD, rather than makes a distinction between the two. This to me just reflects the Hebrew mindset and writing style of describing the same thing in two slightly different ways, that is so prevalent in scripture.

kai is by the vast majority of cases translated 'and' unless there is a compelling reason to use a word such as 'even' and in the case of Gal 6:16 there is no compelling reason to.

 

[crossnote]

In the context it is quite clear that the Israel of God is the church. The letter has already said there is now neither Jew nor Greek in the Christian church, so how cane there be an Israel of God identified as Jews?

The very context has said that there is now neither circumcision nor uncircumcision but a new creation. How then can there still be circumcision which is what Israel of God as meaning Jews would imply. Paul was not that stupid.

But it is wrong to say that that is the only verse. Ephesian 2 makes plain that Gentiles who have become Christians have become part of Israel. You WERE strangers (non-Israelites) --- you are NO MORE strangers (non-Israelites).' 'You were alienated from the commonwealth of Israel -- you are now fellow-citizens'. It could not be clearer.

Furthermore 1 Peter 2.9 makes it crystal clear. Speaking to Christians who had been Gentiles he speaks of them as 'an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people' just as God had called Israel 'a peculiar possession to Me --- a kingdom of priests, a holy nation (Exodus19.5-6).

Jesus Himself taught that Christians would be Israelites. They would abide in the TRUE VINE (the true Israel of which Jesus was the representative), they would be a congregation built on Jesus Christ, they would b a part of the new nation (Matt 21.43). Jesus WAS representative Israel (out of Egypt I called my son, and baptised on Israel'sbehalf) . Thus to be in Christ is to BE an Israelite (not a Jew).

Rom 11.12-24 unquestionably demonstrates that the olive tree (God's chosen name for Israel - Jer 11.16) was composed of ALL who believed in the Messiah. Thus they were part of Israel.



I have shown you otherwise.

New Man does not refer to Israel. It refers to the Church.
Neither Jew nor Gentile simply is in reference to our position in Christ, otherwise are you saying there is no males or females in the Church.
We do not comprise Israel except by Scripture twisting.
We belong to the New Creation/the New Man/the Body of Christ/the Church. There will come a time when God will resume His dealings with Israel (49th week of Daniel), but the Church will not be in that Tribulation.
I'm rushing because these points have been presented zillions of times and it seems some of you have nothing better to do than keep challenging the same points over and over and over without just presenting your points and leave it at that.

 

[crossnote]

I would say the tribulationists and zionists want the idea of Israel being a true fulfillment of the promises, that it has been made into political existance out of guilt following the 2nd world war. Israel rather than being a pluralistic society, it is becoming a dictatorship of one religious group over another.

I thought you were against labels, oh well. Did it ever occur to you that God uses means and that perhaps He used the Zionist movement and WWII to bring about His purposes in bringing the Jews back into THEIR Land?

 

[JGIG]

Question was asked of me. It was answered for me by KJV1611. Yes its a public forum but you dont get to answer for the other person. Thats not discussion.

Quote "It's my observation that you've chosen to take offense where merely an opinion was offered.

Great I'll start answering every question asked of you with my opinion of you and your views.

As you, on a public discussion forum, have every right to do. I would have no problem with that whatsoever. I think your perception of what the other poster did is off, though. He wasn't doing what you propose to do to me - that's clearly trolling, and he did not do that. But something tells me you won't see it that way . . .

No one cares about discussion.

Which is why they come to a Bible Discussion Forum.

You dont answer for another person.

Happens all the time. Because it's a discussion forum.

Carry on . . .

-JGIG

 

[crossnote]

The minor prophets have all been fulfilled in Christ.

What specific promise or prophesy is still left for a nation of Israel?

Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.
(Zec 14:3-4)

 

[Ahwatukee]

Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.
(Zec 14:3-4)

And we can't forget this one:

"Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: In that day, when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it? You will come from your place in the far north, you and many nations with you, all of them riding on horses, a great horde, a mighty army. You will advance against my people Israel like a cloud that covers the land. In days to come, Gog, I will bring you against my land, so that the nations may know me when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.

 

[crossnote]

Millennium...

In that day the root of Jesse, who shall stand as a signal for the peoples—of him shall the nations inquire, and his resting place shall be glorious. In that day the Lord will extend his hand yet a second time to recover the remnant that remains of his people, from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Cush, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea. He will raise a signal for the nations and will assemble the banished of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
(Isa 11:10-12)

Sing aloud, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel! Rejoice and exult with all your heart, O daughter of Jerusalem! The LORD has taken away the judgments against you; he has cleared away your enemies. The King of Israel, the LORD, is in your midst; you shall never again fear evil. On that day it shall be said to Jerusalem: "Fear not, O Zion; let not your hands grow weak. The LORD your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; he will rejoice over you with gladness; he will quiet you by his love; he will exult over you with loud singing. I will gather those of you who mourn for the festival, so that you will no longer suffer reproach. Behold, at that time I will deal with all your oppressors. And I will save the lame and gather the outcast, and I will change their shame into praise and renown in all the earth. At that time I will bring you in, at the time when I gather you together; for I will make you renowned and praised among all the peoples of the earth, when I restore your fortunes before your eyes," says the LORD.
(Zep 3:14-20)

Speaking to Israel.

 

[JimmieD]

Support is the same as I said in an earlier post which I understand you may have missed in all these pages.

True.

I dont believe in sending Jews home, I believe that is Gods work.

I would consider Jewish-American citizens living in America to be home. Why would their home be elsewhere? Wouldn't it be slightly anti-semitic to tell Jewish-Americans that their home really wasn't here, even though they had citizenship, and that God really wants them to live somewhere else? You're basically telling them their real home is far away from you, and that though you won't force them to go there, God will.

If I were Jewish, I would look on those beliefs with a great deal of suspicion. You're collectivizing all of them into some simplistic model into which you think they all should fit. But the real world is more complex and messy with individuals having their own individual values and goals that quite often will not align with what everyone else thinks those values ought to be. "The Jews" are as diverse a group of people as "The Scots" or "The Arabs" or "The African-Americans." In reality there is no stereotype that suits everyone. "The Jews" will all never want to "go Home" because all 20 million + of those individuals will never have identical goals and values. They will never all agree that "Home" is where you think their home ought to be or where you think that God thinks it ought to be.

I believe we are to bless the Jews,pray for peace and support them politically.

I'm not sure what political support you think we ought to give. Are we talking about politically supporting Jews, which live and hold citizenship in numerous countries around the planet, or are you talking about the state of Israel and it's politics? The two don't seem to be one and the same.

I support the republican view politically.

The RNC view on this is pretty vague: https://www.gop.com/topic/foreign-relations-israel/

What happens as politics in Israel change? Which political party in Israel do we support?

I think we can "support" the modern state of Israel, in some general sense, as long as the state exhibits the values of life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of the values and goals of the individuals that reside there. "Support" for the state of Israel shouldn't be a blank check that disregards the values and behaviors of the state. Unfortunately, I think for many Republicans, support for the modern state of Israel is probably this sort of blank check where support (in some general sense) is given no matter what the cost of that support actually entails. I think this is probably due to particular ways of reading the bible; a way of reading the bible that the Prophets themselves would have found foreign. The Prophets were the biggest critics of ancient Israel precisely because they didn't disregard the behavior and values of the state.

But I also don't think support for the state of Israel is required nor is lack of support indicative of anti-semitism or persecution.

 

[tanach]

Which offspring of Abraham was God talking about, the spiritual seed or the physical seed?

The seed of Abraham is Jesus. The promise was to Abrahams seed NOT seeds. Anyone born again is in Christ whether they are Jews or Gentiles. The idea that the whole world is saved through the death and resurrection of Jesus except the Jews that have some kind of exemption clause like a get out of Hell free card means that all we need to do is convert to Judaism and we
are instantly saved by being Jewish.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

And we can't forget this one:

"Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: In that day, when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it? You will come from your place in the far north, you and many nations with you, all of them riding on horses, a great horde, a mighty army. You will advance against my people Israel like a cloud that covers the land. In days to come, Gog, I will bring you against my land, so that the nations may know me when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.

Per Revelation, this occurs after the millennium. No warrant to make up our own eschatology that places this at a different time.