Replacement/Supersessionism Theology,Why it Matters

[wolfwint]

Does Israel, the 2 tribes + the 10 lost tribes still exist? I would question the faith of the Jews is a different faith than that of Moses. There is no longer a high priest or the theocracy or kings. Now the group of people who call themselves Jews are a loose group of people from many ethnic origins. There are many in the Jewish community who oppose Israel and feel it has caused massive problems for their identity and community.

But for those with a prophecy agenda, both christian and muslim, Israel is a useful tool.

I am worried that actually this political agenda is the cause of all the muslim fundamentalist argument, bolstered by miss led christians who believe in some heretical fulfillment that is not even scriptural. Too many people have too much to loose from peace in the middle east, which is the evil that will apparently never go away.

If it is so that the 12 tribes are not longer exists, then how you interprete Revelation 7, 4-8 and 14,1-5? Who are these sealed people?

 

[wolfwint]

Originally Posted by kaylagrl

I know how Jews feel about Christ.Once again as Romans says the Jews have been blinded,for a time. The Jews dont believe in Jesus right now. Romans 11 explains why. It also says GOD HAS NOT FORSAKEN THE JEWS.

So far, Jews are very resistant to the Holy Spirit. God doesn't force anyone to believe in Him. You come to Him freely.

You are right: God did not forsaken the Jews, it is the other way around, they forsaken God in a very coward way.


Fact is: present the Israel are rejecting Jesus as Messiah! But this time will have be an end (f.e. Book of Joel talk about)
So in between all are adoptet in Gods family, who are putting their faith in Jesus Christ! No matter jews ore gentile! Gods plan for the volk Israel and for us who are his children, is different and not to compare with one each another.

To say, that God has rejectet his people Jacob/Israel for ever is not biblical, because we have to see the whole bible from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[wolfwint]

Originally postet from Guesswho

So far, Jews are very resistant to the Holy Spirit. God doesn't force anyone to believe in Him. You come to Him freely.

You are right: God did not forsaken the Jews, it is the other way around, they forsaken God in a very coward way.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Hi Guesswho, fact is: present the Israel are rejecting Jesus as Messiah! In this you are right.
But this time will have be an end (f.e. Book of Joel talk about)
So in between all are adoptet in Gods family, who are putting their faith in Jesus Christ! No matter jews ore gentile! Gods plan for the volk Israel and for us who are his children, is different and not to compare with one each another.

To say, that God has rejectet his people Jacob/Israel for ever is not biblical, because we have to see the whole bible from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[kaylagrl]

Originally postet from Guesswho

So far, Jews are very resistant to the Holy Spirit. God doesn't force anyone to believe in Him. You come to Him freely.

You are right: God did not forsaken the Jews, it is the other way around, they forsaken God in a very coward way.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Hi Guesswho, fact is: present the Israel are rejecting Jesus as Messiah! In this you are right.
But this time will have be an end (f.e. Book of Joel talk about)
So in between all are adoptet in Gods family, who are putting their faith in Jesus Christ! No matter jews ore gentile! Gods plan for the volk Israel and for us who are his children, is different and not to compare with one each another.

To say, that God has rejectet his people Jacob/Israel for ever is not biblical, because we have to see the whole bible from Genesis to Revelation.

Thank you for posting. You said that very well.

 

[kaylagrl]

Originally Posted by kaylagrl

I know how Jews feel about Christ.Once again as Romans says the Jews have been blinded,for a time. The Jews dont believe in Jesus right now. Romans 11 explains why. It also says GOD HAS NOT FORSAKEN THE JEWS.

So far, Jews are very resistant to the Holy Spirit. God doesn't force anyone to believe in Him. You come to Him freely.

You are right: God did not forsaken the Jews, it is the other way around, they forsaken God in a very coward way.


Fact is: present the Israel are rejecting Jesus as Messiah! But this time will have be an end (f.e. Book of Joel talk about)
So in between all are adoptet in Gods family, who are putting their faith in Jesus Christ! No matter jews ore gentile! Gods plan for the volk Israel and for us who are his children, is different and not to compare with one each another.

To say, that God has rejectet his people Jacob/Israel for ever is not biblical, because we have to see the whole bible from Genesis to Revelation.

Yes,I agree!

 

[KJV1611]

Originally postet from Guesswho

So far, Jews are very resistant to the Holy Spirit. God doesn't force anyone to believe in Him. You come to Him freely.

You are right: God did not forsaken the Jews, it is the other way around, they forsaken God in a very coward way.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Hi Guesswho, fact is: present the Israel are rejecting Jesus as Messiah! In this you are right.
But this time will have be an end (f.e. Book of Joel talk about)
So in between all are adoptet in Gods family, who are putting their faith in Jesus Christ! No matter jews ore gentile! Gods plan for the volk Israel and for us who are his children, is different and not to compare with one each another.

To say, that God has rejectet his people Jacob/Israel for ever is not biblical, because we have to see the whole bible from Genesis to Revelation.

Where does the book of Joel say the Jews will stop rejecting Jesus as Messiah?

 

[Cassian]

JGIG,



I think you stated a very large truth in this discussion. I'm still looking for when the so-called supersessionism even began, The Church, as I am Orthodox has never held to this term. Theologically and scripturally, it should be continuation. It is all about the True Isreal, not any national Israel. The Church of the NT NEVER replaced Israel, but was the continuation of the promise to Abraham of bringing in the Gentiles.

Christ came to die and redeen mankind, not some national group. In defeating death and sin for man created a NEW MAN, a new creature where neither Jew or Greek matters, poor or rich, male of female. Eph 2:13-17.

Three times national Israel broke the Covenant and twice went into captivity. The third time was during Christ's ministry here on earth. That rejection resulted in the complete destruction of the Jewish nation and complete dispersion.

The nation was only created for the purpose of bringing forth he Seed. Once the Seed came, the nation has no further function.[/QUOT
If so as you said, how you interprete then the OT promisses to the volk Israel (jewish nation)? F.e. in the book Joel?

The minor prophets have all been fulfilled in Christ.

What specific promise or prophesy is still left for a nation of Israel?

 

[kaylagrl]

That means send them money so they can kill more Palestinians and Syrians.

Is your name kayla? Was the question asked of you? Would you appreciate me answering questions asked of you in my own words and opinions? I dont think so. That was extremely rude.

 

[KJV1611]

Is your name kayla? Was the question asked of you? Would you appreciate me answering questions asked of you in my own words and opinions? I dont think so. That was extremely rude.

I'm sorry, I did't know that I had to respond only to comments directed at me.

 

[kaylagrl]

What do you mean by "support?"

It seems that not persecuting people should be the default Christian position...for everyone. It's not simply that Christians shouldnt persecute Jews; Christians shouldnt persecute ANYONE.

But "support" may be a different matter, depending on what you mean by the term.

Support is the same as I said in an earlier post which I understand you may have missed in all these pages. I dont believe in sending Jews home, I believe that is Gods work. I believe we are to bless the Jews,pray for peace and support them politically. I support the republican view politically. If you have further questions to ask ME I'll answer as I can.

 

[kaylagrl]

I'm sorry, I did't know that I had to respond only to comments directed at me.

You're being obtuse. You spoke FOR me and that was rude.

 

[kaylagrl]

She was quoting the main leaders of protestantism and what their thought's were on the Jews, which is what a lot of people still believe today. I believe she was pointing out the wrong in what those people were stating.

When I was in elementary my parents sent me to a Lutheran Private school.
We did not attend the Lutheran Chruch that the school was a part of though, which I did not understand at that age.
My older brother got suspended for arguing against the ideas Martin Luther had against Jews.
When I was in High School I asked my parents why we never attended the Lutheran Church, and they stated it was because of the thoughts of Lutheran's towards Jews.
Now not all Lutheran's are like that, but their churches teaches it. I have childhood friends who are "Lutheran", but do no believe in all of their teachings, such as antisemitism.

Please reference where Jesus specifically called Jews names?
Jesus called out their religous leaders for their hypocritism.
That is completely different than being antisemitic.

And with Christ's death, it was the same hypocritical leaders that had Him put to death.
To blame the entire culture of Jews for what their religious leaders did is ignorant.
That's like blaming all of the German's for what Hitler did.
Or if I were to call all Lutherans the same for their leader's teachings.

My understanding is ultimately our sins are what crucified Christ.
Not the Jews, not the Greeks, not the Romans, not the gentiles; it was our sins.

I'm Jewish, but I believe Christ is the Messiah.
I do not agree with everything the Talmud states, and again to accuse every Jew of following this is ignorant.
That's where discernment comes into place, and that's why I let the Holy Spirit guide my walk, so I have help in discerning right from wrong, because ultimately the Holy Spirit is going to know what's right and what's wrong.

A huge majority of the first Christians, were Jewish Christians.
A lot of the peopl Jesus was teaching to were Jews.
For example, the woman with an issue of running blood.
How did she know that touching the fringes of Jesus garnment would heal her?
She had faith in the teachings she learned.
In the OT teachings it states their is healing in God's wings.
Jesus most likely was wearing a tallit, which if you spread one of those out, it looks like wings.
The woman had faith that He was the Lord and touched His "wing" and it healed her instantly.
So yes, faith is what healed her, but it was faith based off of what she had been taught, which is a Jewish teaching.

Along with that, the majority of the disciples are Jewish; are you going to blame the woman with the issue of blood, or the disciples for Christ's crusifiction because they're Jewish, or because they're sinners?

Quote "She was quoting the main leaders of protestantism and what their thought's were on the Jews, which is what a lot of people still believe today. I believe she was pointing out the wrong in what those people were stating."


Yes,exactly what I was saying,thank you.

Quote"My older brother got suspended for arguing against the ideas Martin Luther had against Jews.
When I was in High School I asked my parents why we never attended the Lutheran Church, and they stated it was because of the thoughts of Lutheran's towards Jews.
Now not all Lutheran's are like that, but their churches teaches it. I have childhood friends who are "Lutheran", but do no believe in all of their teachings, such as antisemitism.

Thanks for sharing that story. That is the point I was trying to make.


Quote "Please reference where Jesus specifically called Jews names?
Jesus called out their religous leaders for their hypocritism.
That is completely different than being antisemitic." And with Christ's death, it was the same hypocritical leaders that had Him put to death.
To blame the entire culture of Jews for what their religious leaders did is ignorant.
That's like blaming all of the German's for what Hitler did.
Or if I were to call all Lutherans the same for their leader's teachings.

Again,great point.

Quote "My understanding is ultimately our sins are what crucified Christ.
Not the Jews, not the Greeks, not the Romans, not the gentiles; it was our sins."

My understanding also...

Quote "Along with that, the majority of the disciples are Jewish; are you going to blame the woman with the issue of blood, or the disciples for Christ's crusifiction because they're Jewish, or because they're sinners?"

Thank you for sharing this post. Agree with it wholeheartedly.

 

[PeterJens]

If it is so that the 12 tribes are not longer exists, then how you interprete Revelation 7, 4-8 and 14,1-5? Who are these sealed people?

What you have to realise is Isreal is now a mixture of all the tribes and people, without distinction. Revelation is about people who have died, not necessarily still living and most of the book is figurative, so it could mean many different alternatives.

Jesus brought some basic principles to earth. Learn how to love from the heart and act righteously. Neither of these things are currently going on in the nation of Israel, and people no longer have a vision of doing the right thing, it is just getting more embittered and insane as time goes on.

 

[GuessWho]

Fact is: present the Israel are rejecting Jesus as Messiah! But this time will have be an end (f.e. Book of Joel talk about)

Fact is: there is nothing in the Bible that would suggest a large-scale late-minute repentance of the nation of Israel and acceptance of Christ.

So in between all are adoptet in Gods family, who are putting their faith in Jesus Christ! No matter jews ore gentile! Gods plan for the volk Israel and for us who are his children, is different and not to compare with one each another.

God has only one plan: to save the world. Salvation already came into the world through Jesus Christ. Whoever doesn't believe in Jesus Christ can not be part of the Covenant family.

To say, that God has rejectet his people Jacob/Israel for ever is not biblical, because we have to see the whole bible from Genesis to Revelation.

I can't believe that you actually quoted me saying this: "You are right: God did not forsaken the Jews, it is the other way around, they forsaken God in a very coward way." and then you accuse me of saying that God forsaken Jews...

 

[GuessWho]

Gods plan for the volk Israel and for us who are his children, is different and not to compare with one each another.

This statement denies the entire New Testament.

 

[Ahwatukee]

most of the book is figurative, so it could mean many different alternatives.

Hi PeterJens,

If I may, this is the wrong way to view the book of Revelation. The fact in Rev.1:1 that it states it as the Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to him (Jesus) to show his servants the things that must soon take place. The "things that must soon take place" is in reference to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which is the fulfillment of the day of the Lord, the wrath of God. These events will be carried out literally just as they appear. Yes, there are some metaphors used, but the events are real. For example, when that fifth trumpet is sounded, the Abyss is going to be literally opened releasing those demonic beings from the Abyss to torment the inhabitants for five months. When the second trumpet sounds, John says that he sees something like a huge mountain all ablaze being thrown into one of the seas. An asteroid would be a perfect fit to what John is describing, as an asteroid would look like a huge mountain and it would be all ablaze because of coming through the earth's atmosphere. All of those plagues of wrath are literal and will fulfill what the prophets prophesied of:

"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth, When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth, declares the Lord. I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea—and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble. When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,” (Zeph.1:1)

"I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir." (Isa.13:12)

If the literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense.

 

[Ahwatukee]

If it is so that the 12 tribes are not longer exists, then how you interprete Revelation 7, 4-8 and 14,1-5? Who are these sealed people?

Good point Wolfwint! And I would also add that, though they do not know what tribe they belong to, God knows. When that abomination is set up in the holy place in the middle of the seven years, it is Israel proper who will flee out into the wilderness to that place God has prepared for her for that last 3 1/2 years referred to in Mt.24:15-18 and Rev.12:5,14. God still has promises and prophesies to fulfill with the nation Israel and her holy city. The church is a completely different entity from the nation Israel and will be removed from the earth before those events.

 

[GuessWho]

She was quoting the main leaders of protestantism and what their thought's were on the Jews, which is what a lot of people still believe today. I believe she was pointing out the wrong in what those people were stating.

She wasn't just doing that. She wants to prove that believing that the Christian Church is the New Israel is wrong and instead of giving arguments from the Bible to prove us wrong, she quotes this man and that man and says "oh! look what your belief got Jews into".

I am not going to deny the New Testament because some protestant leaders said ugly things about the Jews.

When I was in elementary my parents sent me to a Lutheran Private school.
We did not attend the Lutheran Chruch that the school was a part of though, which I did not understand at that age.
My older brother got suspended for arguing against the ideas Martin Luther had against Jews.
When I was in High School I asked my parents why we never attended the Lutheran Church, and they stated it was because of the thoughts of Lutheran's towards Jews.
Now not all Lutheran's are like that, but their churches teaches it. I have childhood friends who are "Lutheran", but do no believe in all of their teachings, such as antisemitism.

But do you believe Saint Paul that says that we are now God's children, God's chosen people?

Please reference where Jesus specifically called Jews names?
Jesus called out their religous leaders for their hypocritism.
That is completely different than being antisemitic.

Of course it is completely different from being antisemitic. Which is why I believe you shouldn't read Saint John Chrysostom from the prism of WWII but according to his historical context.

And with Christ's death, it was the same hypocritical leaders that had Him put to death.
To blame the entire culture of Jews for what their religious leaders did is ignorant.

Who is blaming the entire culture of Jews? Jew leaders killed Jesus Christ. Jews stay Jews precisely because they don't believe Jesus Christ is the Messiah. How can you say that they are God's chosen people if they don't believe Jesus Christ?

That's like blaming all of the German's for what Hitler did.
Or if I were to call all Lutherans the same for their leader's teachings.

Hitler alone could not have commit the atrocities he has done. I believe the Germans who contributed to the holocaust will be held as accountable as Hitler.

The examples would make sense if Jews would follow Jesus Christ instead of the teachings of those that killed Jesus Christ. But since they don't...since they believe Jesus Christ was a fraud, a deceiver then that means they reject Christ.

My understanding is ultimately our sins are what crucified Christ.
Not the Jews, not the Greeks, not the Romans, not the gentiles; it was our sins.

My understanding is that Jesus Christ willingly went to death for us because He loved us.
But that doesn't change the fact that Caiaphas (the high-priest) hated Him and wanted Him death and that the Jews yelled "crucify Him". I hope you don't think the New Testament is antisemitic too.

I'm Jewish, but I believe Christ is the Messiah.

So you follow judaism but at the same time you believe Jesus is the Christ? I'm confused.

I do not agree with everything the Talmud states, and again to accuse every Jew of following this is ignorant.

My bad then. I thought the Talmud was an important book in Judaism.

A huge majority of the first Christians, were Jewish Christians.

...thank's for stating the obvious.

A lot of the peopl Jesus was teaching to were Jews.

....

So yes, faith is what healed her, but it was faith based off of what she had been taught, which is a Jewish teaching.

That's the point I am trying to make! That christianity has Jewish roots. That's why we believe Jesus Christ is the Messiah promised in the O.T. and thus claimed this wonderful book(s), the O.T., as ours, and that's why we are now the New and true Israel of God.

Along with that, the majority of the disciples are Jewish; are you going to blame the woman with the issue of blood, or the disciples for Christ's crusifiction because they're Jewish, or because they're sinners?

Of course not. Please point out where did I do that?
Jesus Christ is the Messiah that Jews expected. That is the whole point of the New Testament, of the minister of Saint Paul, of Christianity. For a lot of Jews from our days, Jesus Christ is the Messiah "of christians". It's not true. Jesus Christ is their Messiah; Saint Paul was a Jew before converting to Christianity. And he converted because He recognized Jesus as the Messiah. But Jews, as a religion, don't accept Him.

 

[JGIG]

JGIG,



I think you stated a very large truth in this discussion. I'm still looking for when the so-called supersessionism even began, The Church, as I am Orthodox has never held to this term. Theologically and scripturally, it should be continuation. It is all about the True Isreal, not any national Israel. The Church of the NT NEVER replaced Israel, but was the continuation of the promise to Abraham of bringing in the Gentiles.

Christ came to die and redeen mankind, not some national group. In defeating death and sin for man created a NEW MAN, a new creature where neither Jew or Greek matters, poor or rich, male of female. Eph 2:13-17.

Three times national Israel broke the Covenant and twice went into captivity. The third time was during Christ's ministry here on earth. That rejection resulted in the complete destruction of the Jewish nation and complete dispersion.

The nation was only created for the purpose of bringing forth he Seed. Once the Seed came, the nation has no further function.

I agree to a point - to say that Israel has no further function I think is pushing it. All the promises of God are yes and amen in Christ, and as Israel comes to Christ, there will be a unique testimony there. And it will be to the glory of God \o/. How that will flesh out remains to be seen, but I don't think it's appropriate to sideline Israel; as the instrument of God they deserve to be honored.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

This is true schizophrenia. There is only one way to God, through Jesus, the final cornerstone of the testimony through Israel. The curtain is torn in two, the Kingdom of heaven has come to earth.

But no, wait a minute. God has to make Israel, or whatever is left of it, into His Holy nation.
Now the apostles had a hard time separating themselves from Israel, which in the end they did not. They said christians were grafted into the nation, through Jesus's blood.

Taking this view we are Israel in spiritual form. Jesus is the fulfillment of the law, the prophets and all the ceremonies.

Whatever you put up as a symbol of Israel today, it is not the same faith as that practised in Jesus's time.

I would say the tribulationists and zionists want the idea of Israel being a true fulfillment of the promises, that it has been made into political existance out of guilt following the 2nd world war. Israel rather than being a pluralistic society, it is becoming a dictatorship of one religious group over another.

Islam is playing off this by stirring up the opposite hatred and bitterness. It is all insane and evil. The language and behaviour is all wrong, and christian groups are being decimated. But ofcourse that does not matter because it is "prophecy". No it is evil.

Those people who believe this will end in peace are living in delusion, it is getting worse.

If one wants to be really biblical, Israel never truly conquered Palistine , they never finished driving out the tribes which were there and compromised through their long history. Only after the exile, did they return a purer form of faith. So it was a failure as a total project, but was a success demonstrating seeing God face to face is not enough to want to walk with Him.

No, we are not grafted into the nation of Israel, but grafted into Christ.

Read more about that here:

[h=2]Hebrew Roots Movement – Believers are Grafted Into and Become Israel? Um . . . No.[/h]
-JGIG