ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED, HYPER GRACE, ETERNAL SECURITY = FALSE DOCTRINE PROVEN!

[eternally-gratefull]

We have the firstfruits and down payment. We do not have full possession.

Not only [this], but we ourselves also, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves [while we] await eagerly [our] adoption, the redemption of our body. Romans 8:23

Now the one who establishes us together with you in Christ and who anoints us [is] God, [who] also sealed us and gave the down payment of the Spirit in our hearts. 2 Corinthians 1:21-22​

Eph 1:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, [SUP]14 [/SUP]who[SUP][b][/SUP] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

So,, Can you tell us what Paul said is the end of that seal, that guarantee??

The day of redemption is the day you just spoke of in those two passages..

 

[FreeNChrist]

We have the firstfruits and down payment. We do not have full possession.

Not only [this], but we ourselves also, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves [while we] await eagerly [our] adoption, the redemption of our body. For in hope we were saved, but hope that is seen is not hope, for who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we await [it] eagerly with patient endurance. Romans 8:23-25

Now the one who establishes us together with you in Christ and who anoints us [is] God, [who] also sealed us and gave the down payment of the Spirit in our hearts. 2 Corinthians 1:21-22​

God says the one who believes HAS eternal life. But you say no, that the one who believes only has TEMPORAL life. Which is nothing less than calling God a liar. I recognize that spirit……“did God really say...?"

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Eph 1:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, [SUP]14 [/SUP]who[SUP][b][/SUP] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
So,, Can you tell us what Paul said is the end of that seal, that guarantee??

The day of redemption is the day you just spoke of in those two passages..

I have no idea what you said or meant. We have been given a down payment of the spirit, which is eternal life. We have not taken full possession.

in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:13-14​

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

God says the one who believes HAS eternal life. But you say no, that the one who believes only has TEMPORAL life. Which is nothing less than calling God a liar. I recognize that spirit……“did God really say...?"

You're a real goofball. I've nowhere said temporal life. We've been given a down payment of eternal life.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You're a real goofball. I've nowhere said temporal life. We've been given a down payment of eternal life.

no, we were given eternal life. The HS is the downpayment, or seal. which guarantees eternal life until that day of redemption is finally fulfilled..

Again, your being deceptive.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have no idea what you said or meant. We have been given a down payment of the spirit, which is eternal life. We have not taken full possession.

in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:13-14​

Eternal life is what we have in possession. The HS is the first installment that we get. He is our seal until the day of redemption..

Just one of the many facets of what eternal life is.


you did not answer my question, was it so hard?

 

[FreeNChrist]

You're a real goofball. I've nowhere said temporal life. We've been given a down payment of eternal life.

I may be a goofball, but that doesn't change the fact that the gig is up for you.

 

[thecreationtutor]

Cee's comment reflects the neo-gnostic influence of the new.modern.hyper grace mvmt, which essentially denies the existence of the old man and only identifies with the new creation. All things are new. Practitioners believe themselves to be spiritual beings joined in a mysterious conjunction with grace that they have as their own special possession that cannot be taken away from them no matter what they do. It's an identity faith that eschews any need or worth of good works, apart from whatever beneficial influence those works might have in this world.

Now, I would agree with people who are weird and think that there is no "old man" or the flesh, or sin dwelling in me

I don't think we bear fruit on our own - ie we don't produce fruit of the Holy Spirit - the Holy Spirit produces that in us - hence fruit of the Spirit

My example is this - I want to be useful to God, so I try, and try - but my attempts are pretty futile. I am more concerned with being successful

However, when I am just faithful to what God puts in front of me, it becomes a lot less of me trying to do something and more God working in and through me - God is more concerned about me being faithful - well done, good and faithful servant.

We also tend to want to be the Holy Spirit in other peoples lives instead of Trusting, and praying for that person -- those arminian moments exist in all of us I think. You know what the Holy Spirit uses most in your life to convict those that walk in hyper-grace --- humility and fruit of the Spirit in your life...........

There are people, and churches who say nothing about being conformed to the image of Christ, nothing about the hope of the return of Christ(why I loved they Titus reference to the Grace of God teaches us - and our blessed hope)

 

[popeye]

Paul was literally dying daily. He was getting the crap beat out of him regularly, and was more than willing to indure it for the cause of Christ. The old nature is already dead. Trying to kill what is already dead is a waste of a life. Be careful that the "self" your end up killing isn't the self Christ has made of you.

The old nature is that part of you that can be tempted.
That is what separates us from God even though we are born again.
He can not be tempted.
Jesus,as a man,COULD.

You are basically saying,you are better than Jesus,

Amazing that you have to go into some make believe world where a believer has no carnal nature.

You are never tempted??
Really?
You think the spirit of God inside you can be tempted?

You are way,way off my friend.

 

[popeye]

Now, I would agree with people who are weird and think that there is no "old man" or the flesh, or sin dwelling in me

I don't think we bear fruit on our own - ie we don't produce fruit of the Holy Spirit - the Holy Spirit produces that in us - hence fruit of the Spirit

My example is this - I want to be useful to God, so I try, and try - but my attempts are pretty futile. I am more concerned with being successful

However, when I am just faithful to what God puts in front of me, it becomes a lot less of me trying to do something and more God working in and through me - God is more concerned about me being faithful - well done, good and faithful servant.

We also tend to want to be the Holy Spirit in other peoples lives instead of Trusting, and praying for that person -- those arminian moments exist in all of us I think. You know what the Holy Spirit uses most in your life to convict those that walk in hyper-grace --- humility and fruit of the Spirit in your life...........

There are people, and churches who say nothing about being conformed to the image of Christ, nothing about the hope of the return of Christ(why I loved they Titus reference to the Grace of God teaches us - and our blessed hope)

Now, I would agree with people who are weird and think that there is no "old man" or the flesh, or sin dwelling in me

Glad you confirmed this.

I have never in almost 40 years of walking with the Lord encountered a believer that actually denied the carnal nature exists.

That transition happens in heaven or,for those raptured,on the way to heaven. (glorified bodies)

 

[Grace777x70]

Happy New year coming up popeye!

I think the confusion comes with the terminology used.

For one thing....if the "old man" is not dead....then Christ has not died because we ( ie..our old man ) died with Him on the cross.

We become new creations in Christ with a "new man" created in righteousness and holiness. Eph 4:24

We still have the flesh which is the left over after the "old man" died. This is where I believe the confusion comes in with people. It is unfortunate that the NIV bible had translated "flesh" as the "sinful nature" which has for years thrown people off. I believe in their new edition of the bible they have fixed this mis-translation.

The term "flesh" is used 3 different ways in the NT.

1) the carnal ways of thinking and actions left over from the prior manner of living from the old man - this is where renewing our minds comes in

2) it is used when talking about self-effort

3) and sometimes it just means the "fleshly-meat - the body" itself

In this "flesh" there is the "power of sin".....these two are in cahoots together. Flesh and the power of sin in working together know what "works" with you in the past. The power of sin knows your history and what works with you. Whatever areas in the past that you have struggled with is what the "sin in your flesh" will be bringing to you in your mind.

The power of sin says you are guilty and worthless but the Holy Spirit in your new man says you are the righteousness of God in Christ, you are loved..etc. You are in Christ now.


The flesh is ways to think and act that "were" the manner of living we are and were used to left over from the old man. ( Eph 4:22 - in reference to your former manner of living )

Romans 7:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now, no longer am I ( the new man ) the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me ( in my body which has the flesh with the power of sin in it ).
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good dwells in me ( my body which has the flesh in it ), that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me ( in my new man ), but the doing of the good is not.

Romans 7:20-23 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I ( new man ) do not want, I ( new man ) am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me ( in the flesh ).
[SUP]21 [/SUP] I find then the principle that evil is present in me ( new man ), the one who wants to do good.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, ( new man ),
[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

italics = my wordsThen Romans chapter 8 comes in and shows us how to walk according to the Spirit and not the flesh to put to death the deeds of the body ( flesh in the body ). Rom 8:13
We are not fighting a civil war within ourselves ( the flesh and the power of sin do not belong to our new nature which in Christ. ). Jesus said " A house divided will not stand."

As long as we are on this earth and in this body we will have to contend with the world, the flesh and the devil. The good news is that our Lord Jesus Christ has defeated all 3 of them!

As we grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus....we manifest outwardly in our behavior who we already are in our new man in Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord,are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

This word "transformed" is the same word used for when Jesus was on the mount and was "transformed" in front of James, Peter and John. Jesus was manifesting His true self when speaking to Moses and Elijah. He already had within Him this glory that was revealed on the mount.

Glad you confirmed this.

I have never in almost 40 years of walking with the Lord encountered a believer that actually denied the carnal nature exists.

That transition happens in heaven or,for those raptured,on the way to heaven. (glorified bodies)

 

[royalscot]

the truth was not yet discovered , a to z needs a past , a present, etc.
yet cant read the meaning of the past. the word eejits will always be your down fall. ie living in the past you will never see today. ie the truth will set you free. not opinion or speculation, or freedom of to have an opinion. i have walked the exrta mile. first chance i get. etc

 

[valiant]

the truth was not yet discovered , a to z needs a past , a present, etc.
yet cant read the meaning of the past. the word eejits will always be your down fall. ie living in the past you will never see today. ie the truth will set you free. not opinion or speculation, or freedom of to have an opinion. i have walked the exrta mile. first chance i get. etc

The past is a guaranteed once for all salvation which never fails (Titus 3.5) and which continues on into the present time by God's grace (have been and are saved - Eph 2.8-9)

The present is that God as a result is saving men from the power of sin according to His working through the cross (I Cor 1.18; Phil 2.13)..

The future is that we a have a glorious salvation from the presence and power and sin

 

[mailmandan]

I have no idea what you said or meant. We have been given a down payment of the spirit, which is eternal life. We have not taken full possession.

in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:13-14​

The Holy Spirit is the down payment of our inheritance, UNTIL THE REDEMPTION OF THE POSSESSION.

<1,,728,arrabon> originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase was not completed, was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; in Ephesians 1:14; 4:30 particularly of their eternal inheritance.

2 Corinthians 1:21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Corinthians 5:5 - Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto/for the day of redemption.

 

[Grace777x70]

Good one! God's word always has the last say....I would say that we are definitely sealed!...nice work in ferreting that truth out for us.

The Holy Spirit is the down payment of our inheritance, UNTIL THE REDEMPTION OF THE POSSESSION.

<1,,728,arrabon> originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase was not completed, was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; in Ephesians 1:14; 4:30 particularly of their eternal inheritance.

2 Corinthians 1:21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Corinthians 5:5 - Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto/for the day of redemption.

 

[FreeNChrist]

The old nature is that part of you that can be tempted.
That is what separates us from God even though we are born again.
He can not be tempted.
Jesus,as a man,COULD.

You are basically saying,you are better than Jesus,

Amazing that you have to go into some make believe world where a believer has no carnal nature.

You are never tempted??
Really?
You think the spirit of God inside you can be tempted?

You are way,way off my friend.

If you say you have an old nature inside of you, who am I to say otherwise? But, don't even try to speak for me, and don't even think you have any clue whatsoever about what I believe.

 

[redeemed2014]

Eternal security teaches once justified always justified. Meaning your always in right standing with God no matter what you do!

Yeah that sounds good, just one problem...

Technically If your always justified, then your always forgiven of your sin, because anyone who needs forgiveness of sin, is not justified, they are guilty.

When a christian falls into sin, we repent for the forgiveness of sin. right? Of course! why else would we be repenting!

Technically the moment a christian falls into sin, he "becomes" and "remains" guilty until he repents of his sin.
How do I know this? Because he needs to repent in order to be forgiven of the sin he fell into. No repentence = no forgiveness.

Technically if a christian at any moment is not forgiven of a sin, then he is not JUSTIFIED. Which shows once justified always justified and once saved always saved is a lie.
No repentence = no forgiveness = no justification = not saved.

Show me in scripture where repentance is not for the forgiveness of sins and you will COMPLETELY destroy my claim. But you can't because we repent in order to receive forgiveness from God.

REPENTENCE was paid for by the blood of Jesus once and for all time! Now we no longer have to continually sacrifice animals but we can get down on our knees at any moment and start over! However some born again believers grieve the holy spirit and don't repent for whatever reason.

Repentence is for believers, not only sinners!

1:john 1:9 [If] "we" confess "our" sins, he is faithful and just to forgive "us" our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

" we, us, our, us" = hes talking to christians
[ if ] The word if means something is conditional. Here it was saying It's conditional for us to confess/repent , in order to be forgiven ! Which proves my point your not forgiven if you don't repent!

1 peter 4:18 If it is hard for a man who is right with God to be saved, what will happen to the sinner?

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Hebrews 9:11-12
(11) But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
(12) Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

You receive that eternal redemption the moment you believe in the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ
1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

1 John 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.



In one of those verses did it say we had to repent to be forgiven? We are eternally forgiven for sins
past, present, and future because of the work and glorious blood of the Lord Jesus Christ if you believe.

 

[KenAllan]

Salvation is received by Faith and Grace. Salvation is received by believing Jesus is God.

So tell me, where in the Scriptures does God say Salvation is received by NOT sinning?

If Salvation were received by not sinning then yes we can lose our Salvation by sinning like you teach.

But I thank God that YOU are NOT in charge of Salvation!

We can never lose our Salvation just by sinning like false Christians teach.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Salvation is received by Faith and Grace. Salvation is received by believing Jesus is God.

So tell me, where in the Scriptures does God say Salvation is received by NOT sinning?

If Salvation were received by not sinning then yes we can lose our Salvation by sinning like you teach.

But I thank God that YOU are NOT in charge of Salvation!

We can never lose our Salvation just by sinning like false Christians teach.

It doesn't. IT does say, though, that we abide in Christ by not sinning.

 

[Grace777x70]

Abiding in the Vine:

A promise, not a condition

Jesus told the disciples, you are in me (our imperfections are hidden in His perfection) and I am in you (we carry His sinless DNA). Jesus didn’t sin and He won’t ever sin. If you let Him live His life through you, then without any conscious effort on your part you’re going to start talking and acting just like sinless Jesus. This is a glorious promise for all who believe:

“Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.” (1 Jn 3:9)

So what does it mean to abide in the vine? Here’s the answer we’ve all been waiting for…

“Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.” (1 Jn 4:15)

Have you confessed that Jesus is the Son of God? Then God abides in you and you in Him. You may wonder, But how did this happen? All I did was confess. Well you could not have believed and confessed Jesus as Lord unless the Holy Spirit had led you to do so (1 Cor 12:3). The work and the glory are all His. Rest in that!

The trouble is, you can’t rest because somewhere inside there is a little voice that’s asking, Can I abide today and not abide tomorrow? Can I be in the vine one moment and cut off the next? Why would Jesus tell his disciples to abide if there wasn’t any danger of not abiding?

The problem, as usual, is found between our ears. Most of us have grown up with a slave mentality that says our value is determined by what we do. This was certainly true of the disciples who had been born and bred under the law. They were conditioned to think in terms of their performance. This works mindset is also evident in some of our English translations:

“Remain in me, and I will remain in you.” (Jn 15:4, NIV)

Again, that sounds like a condition. It sounds like Jesus is saying, if your abiding performance is up to scratch, then I will reward you by abiding as well. But it is not a condition to make us sweat; it is a promise to make us rest. In John 15 Jesus goes to great lengths to counter the law-mentality of the disciples. He does this by hitting them with promise after promise:

“As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.” (Jn 15:9)

How does the Father love Jesus? Ask yourself this question: How many miracles or works had Jesus done when the Father declared from heaven, “this is my beloved Son?” None! The Father loves Jesus unconditionally, without any reference to His performance or fruit. That means that Jesus loves us unconditionally! He wants us to rest in His unconditional love.

You’re free? Be free!

Just to recap – if you think abiding is something we must do, then understand that the evidence of abiding is zero sin. This is humanly impossible. The only logical response to the command “abide!” is to trust in Jesus and His performance and quit trying to impress Him with yours. The word “abide” connotes “rest” and “surrender,” not “struggle” and “try harder.”

Trust God, the abiding issue is all settled from His side. “Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him.” But it may not be settled from your side. You may still be struggling with that old servant mentality.

Instead of rest there is insecurity. Instead of joy there is anxiety. Am I in? Can I be cut off? If this is you, let Jesus speak to your insecurity:

“I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.” (Jn 8:34-36)

The reality is, you are free indeed because Jesus has set you free. The reality is, you are abiding in the vine because you have confessed Him as Lord. But you may not be experiencing that reality.

You may feel like you’re not free or you’re not abiding. Although you are a son with a permanent place in the family, you may still think and act like the slave that you used to be. There’s only one solution: renew your mind! Stop living by feelings and start walking by faith. You are abiding in fact, so start abiding in practice.

When Jesus said, “anyone who does not abide in Me is cast out as a branch, withers, and is thrown into the fire,” He was not referring to fruitless Christians. (They are lifted up.) He was describing those who refuse to believe to that He is the Son of God. He was describing those who are looking for life outside of the true vine.

If you have confessed Jesus as your Lord, then walk in that the truth: You are free, God Himself abides in you, and as a son or daughter you have a permanent place in His family.

Thank you Jesus!

Here is a link for the article . There is a lot more in the article and there are comments at the bottom where people have asked questions. I like to use this website as it tackles the scriptures with grace-based teachings on the finished work of Christ.

https://escapetoreality.org/2011/06/08/john-15v6_abide-in-the-vine/