Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the churches!
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You can falsely accuse me all you want but salvation wrought by God cannot be lost. That which a man does can be changed and often will be changed.
If you were acquainted with the person and character of God you would not make such rash statements that degrade the holiness of God.
What does sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption mean to you?
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
If you were acquainted with the person and character of God you would not make such rash statements that degrade the holiness of God.
What does sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption mean to you?
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
That is correct
.
That is incorrect. He says believers have been delivered from slavery to sin. (6.14). He specifically points out that they were ONCE slaves to sin, but are so no longer. The emphasis all through is on the fact that they are NOT slaves to sin.
The church members who were composed of true believers and false believers are charged to recognise this
,
He did not anywhere say 'choose'. He said they were no longer slaves to sin (v 17). The true Christians already recognised this fact. You are presenting what Paul DOES NOT say.
But Paul does not warn them, he says it is a fact for sinners but not for them. You are presenting the case dishonestly.,
the first true thing you've said.
who have therefore never been converted, and are NOT included among those he is
talking to.
Your presentation of what Paul said is totally dishonest.
.
That is incorrect. He says believers have been delivered from slavery to sin. (6.14). He specifically points out that they were ONCE slaves to sin, but are so no longer. The emphasis all through is on the fact that they are NOT slaves to sin.
The church members who were composed of true believers and false believers are charged to recognise this
,
He did not anywhere say 'choose'. He said they were no longer slaves to sin (v 17). The true Christians already recognised this fact. You are presenting what Paul DOES NOT say.
But Paul does not warn them, he says it is a fact for sinners but not for them. You are presenting the case dishonestly.,
the first true thing you've said.
who have therefore never been converted, and are NOT included among those he is
talking to.
Your presentation of what Paul said is totally dishonest.
U
Justification is the act of salvation from God who makes the judgement. This does NOT change.
When other scriptures talk about falling away it is not from justification, it is from grace which is different.
I really like how this man has defined grace,
Michael Horton writes, “In grace, God gives nothing less than Himself. Grace, then, is not a third thing or substance mediating between God and sinners, but is Jesus Christ in redeeming action.”
Grace is mercy not merit.
When we fall from grace we leave the place of closeness with God, grace ties us to Him, but because we do have ability to choose there are times when we stumble, loose faith, fall into sin, but God has declared us justified, we are not going to hell.
We recognize that we have fallen from grace and renew our minds so that we once again we abide in the vine. There is repentance in that for sure but is not a repentance to gain back a saved status!!!
A born again believer is never to be condemned to hell, God does not change His declaration or our status.
You need to see it from His vantage point not the human one.
Your really need to make this distinction, I hope you will, this is gospel, not the butchered version of some of the post reformers of the 16th century .
When other scriptures talk about falling away it is not from justification, it is from grace which is different.
I really like how this man has defined grace,
Michael Horton writes, “In grace, God gives nothing less than Himself. Grace, then, is not a third thing or substance mediating between God and sinners, but is Jesus Christ in redeeming action.”
Grace is mercy not merit.
When we fall from grace we leave the place of closeness with God, grace ties us to Him, but because we do have ability to choose there are times when we stumble, loose faith, fall into sin, but God has declared us justified, we are not going to hell.
We recognize that we have fallen from grace and renew our minds so that we once again we abide in the vine. There is repentance in that for sure but is not a repentance to gain back a saved status!!!
A born again believer is never to be condemned to hell, God does not change His declaration or our status.
You need to see it from His vantage point not the human one.
Your really need to make this distinction, I hope you will, this is gospel, not the butchered version of some of the post reformers of the 16th century .
You really need to re-read and try to understand what Paul is tactfully getting at.
(This is the problem: believers do NOT comprehend Paul's method of writing!
I won't tell you why unless someone insists.)
But, fear not ... you are far from being alone on this issue!
I'm repeating ... Paul says (paraphrasing):
"You have been set free from being slaves of sin, so why do you continue to sin?
I'm warning you, to do so results in eternal death!"
Reading between the lines, Paul is entreating them: Choose the opposite of sinning!
Kinda reminds me of the OT: "Choose this day whom you will serve!"
Sorry, wrong covenant ... But, then again, God does not change!
(This is the problem: believers do NOT comprehend Paul's method of writing!
I won't tell you why unless someone insists.)
But, fear not ... you are far from being alone on this issue!
I'm repeating ... Paul says (paraphrasing):
"You have been set free from being slaves of sin, so why do you continue to sin?
I'm warning you, to do so results in eternal death!"
Reading between the lines, Paul is entreating them: Choose the opposite of sinning!
Kinda reminds me of the OT: "Choose this day whom you will serve!"
Sorry, wrong covenant ... But, then again, God does not change!
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Let us carefully review Paul's words to Christians here ...
2 Corinthians 7:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For even if I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it.
For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance.
For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted;
but the sorrow of the world produces death. [SUP]
11 [/SUP]For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication! In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore, although I wrote to you, I did not do it for the sake of him who had done the wrong, nor for the sake of him who suffered wrong, but that our care for you in the sight of God might appear to you.
2 Corinthians 7:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For even if I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it.
For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance.
For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted;
but the sorrow of the world produces death. [SUP]
11 [/SUP]For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication! In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore, although I wrote to you, I did not do it for the sake of him who had done the wrong, nor for the sake of him who suffered wrong, but that our care for you in the sight of God might appear to you.
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F
Luke 18:10-14
“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
E
Why?
1. Because if salvation can be lost. It must bw earned (hence the question of why you think you can earn salvation)
2. If salvation can be lost, It means it must be earned, If obedience is required. there must be a cut off point of being good enough, or not being good enough. Hence the questions of why you think you can be good enough. and how good is good enough.
1. Because if salvation can be lost. It must bw earned (hence the question of why you think you can earn salvation)
2. If salvation can be lost, It means it must be earned, If obedience is required. there must be a cut off point of being good enough, or not being good enough. Hence the questions of why you think you can be good enough. and how good is good enough.
E
Why would paul ask a believer in christ who has been born again and given the freedom from sin, because they repented, and chose to serve God, To chose who they will serve?
When a child of God already chose. They chose to serve God. thats why they have been freed from the ability to habituallly sin.. As I already showed you in the apostle Johns writtings (by the way why have you not responded to them? )
Thus, Paul is talking to non Christians, Not true believers.. So you can not use this to prove salvation can be lost.
You conveniently avoided the real question.
What does sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption mean to you?
If you make God to be variable you diminish who He is. What Jesus has said is what He will do. Jesus is able to perform all that He has promised.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
For the cause of Christ
Roger
What does sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption mean to you?
If you make God to be variable you diminish who He is. What Jesus has said is what He will do. Jesus is able to perform all that He has promised.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
For the cause of Christ
Roger
-- believers need to choose who they will be slaves to That is incorrect. He says believers have been delivered from slavery to sin. (6.14). He specifically points out that they were ONCE slaves to sin, but are so no longer. The emphasis all through is on the fact that they are NOT slaves to sin.
The church members who were composed of true believers and false believers are charged to recognise this
,
He did not anywhere say 'choose'. He said they were no longer slaves to sin (v 17). The true Christians already recognised this fact. You are presenting what Paul DOES NOT say.
But Paul does not warn them, he says it is a fact for sinners but not for them. You are presenting the case dishonestly.,
Your presentation of what Paul said is totally dishonest.
yes of course he did not say what he meant. Or maybe, just maybe, Paul was clearer than you and meant what he said?
In other words Paul does not say what you wanted so you have to change it, He did not warn at all. He merely said it HAD BEEN true of them before they were converted
but he did not say that, Reading between the lines you can make anything mean anything,
you treat the scriptures disgracefully.
The church members who were composed of true believers and false believers are charged to recognise this
,
He did not anywhere say 'choose'. He said they were no longer slaves to sin (v 17). The true Christians already recognised this fact. You are presenting what Paul DOES NOT say.
But Paul does not warn them, he says it is a fact for sinners but not for them. You are presenting the case dishonestly.,
Your presentation of what Paul said is totally dishonest.
yes of course he did not say what he meant. Or maybe, just maybe, Paul was clearer than you and meant what he said?
In other words Paul does not say what you wanted so you have to change it, He did not warn at all. He merely said it HAD BEEN true of them before they were converted
but he did not say that, Reading between the lines you can make anything mean anything,
you treat the scriptures disgracefully.
Originally Posted by ZacharyB
Obviously (to most at least) ... the holiness of God has absolutely nothing to do
with the question of whether a born-again believer can lose his/her salvation!
with the question of whether a born-again believer can lose his/her salvation!
You don't understand that OBEDIENCE to Jesus' commands is NOT works/good deeds!
3 times in John 14, Jesus says, "If you love Me, you will obey My commandments."
Ditto for Jesus verse in John 14, "If you are My friend, you will obey My commandments."
Evidently, you think you'll get into heaven without loving Jesus and being His friend.
Also, of utmost importance is the attitude of one's heart.
Jesus judges all of these things and more before determining one's fate.
3 times in John 14, Jesus says, "If you love Me, you will obey My commandments."
Ditto for Jesus verse in John 14, "If you are My friend, you will obey My commandments."
Evidently, you think you'll get into heaven without loving Jesus and being His friend.
Also, of utmost importance is the attitude of one's heart.
Jesus judges all of these things and more before determining one's fate.
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Nonsense ... Paul is talking to all believers in the Roman churches.
Some are obviously sinning, and Paul is warning them to STOP.
Which cave are you hiding in? (please give us the location and cave #)
Multitudes of believers in western churches are habitually sinning!
Dey tink they're just fine and A-OK ... because they have been
taught false doctrines such as: OSAS and the pre-trib rapture ...
they think they're sinning themselves into heaven via a rapture!
All of this is from the very pits of hell.
Gee, isn't rationalization wonderful, E-G!
And gee, isn't your free-will to use it wonderful also!
Some are obviously sinning, and Paul is warning them to STOP.
Which cave are you hiding in? (please give us the location and cave #)
Multitudes of believers in western churches are habitually sinning!
Dey tink they're just fine and A-OK ... because they have been
taught false doctrines such as: OSAS and the pre-trib rapture ...
they think they're sinning themselves into heaven via a rapture!
All of this is from the very pits of hell.
Gee, isn't rationalization wonderful, E-G!
And gee, isn't your free-will to use it wonderful also!
that is funny, because I have always, and still do, believe it is. What is it, evildoing?,
But He knows they will never fully do it. Did Peter not love Jesus when he denied Him? What Jesus meant was that that would be their intention BECAUSE of what He had done for them.
don't be silly. All true believers love Jesus.
Which is why true believers will be faithful in the end.
Jesus has ALREADY decided our fate (John 5.24; 6.39; 10.27-28).,
But He knows they will never fully do it. Did Peter not love Jesus when he denied Him? What Jesus meant was that that would be their intention BECAUSE of what He had done for them.
don't be silly. All true believers love Jesus.
Which is why true believers will be faithful in the end.
Jesus has ALREADY decided our fate (John 5.24; 6.39; 10.27-28).,