Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?

[bluto]

The following is what one member on these forums stated, "FYI, I was a Trinitatian for 45 years unbtil I got tired of trying to support it when neither the Bible, Jesus nor His disciples taught it. Supposing you show me where they do."

First of all we all know the word "trinity" is not in the Bible. But that proves nothing because "monotheism, omnipresent, omnicient, omnipotent, the word "Bible" is not in there either. However, the concept of these words are in the Bible. Now, I have read a lot of what quasar has written and there are just too many flaws in what he says because he takes verses out of context to prove his errant theology.

He says Jesus never pre-existed His incarnation and one of the verses he uses is Proverbs 8:22. I will get back to this later. But first I want to say the doctrine of the trinity is not an "assumption" as quasar seems to think. It is the normative systematic theology of God in Christianity and is BASED on the fact that the Bible is explicit in tellin gus that there is, was and forever will be only ONE God and the fact that the Bible IDENTIFIES three (and only three) persons as God.

So, how does the Bible identify the persons of the Trinity?

1) His names.
2) His titles
3) His unique attributes
4) His unique actions
5) His worship

The Trinity does not rely on any single verse in the Bible for its representation and similarly, it cannot be refuted by any single verse in the Bible. It is a doctrine that explains the nature of the one and only true God described in the Bible. It is also drawn from a HARMONIZATION of ALL of scripture and therefore can only be understood from a view that accounts for ALL the Bible.

I always get a kick out of people (who don't think things through) when they say, "Show me one verse where Jesus claimed to be God?" As if there a verse like that in the Bible it would convice them that Jesus is God? Or like quasar stated in his long list of particulars, "If Jesus is God did He rasie Himself?" Or an oldie but a goody, "If Jesus is God why didn't He know the time of His own return?"

Now, getting back to the identity issue. His names! Who is called by the NAMES of God (YHWH and its variants) either directly or indirectly but usually both. His titles! What are the recognized TITLES? (Lord, king, savior, first and last etc.)
His unique attributes/characteristic! (Omnipresence, omnipotence, eternality, omniciense etc.)

How about His unique actions! (Creation, origin of God's word, salvation of men and/or creation etc.) How about His worship? Who is given honor, reverence and position due to God ALONE? In fact, when Thomas declared to Jesus Christ Himself at John 20:28 that Jesus Christ was "his Lord and God" this was in the vain of the highest form of worship there can be.

Let me be clear that I am NOT saying that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all consistently, equally and in every mention identified as God in every place they are represented in the Bible by any combination of these 5. I am saying each person of the tgrinity receives some COMBINATION of the 5 means of identifying and distinguishing God listed above.

Another thing I noticed in reading what quasar stated was that he mixes terms thinking they mean the same thing. He equates the term "being" with the term "persons." They do not mean the same thing. He also used the word "separate" by saying the persons of the trinity are three separate persons. No they are not. They are distinct persons and the word "separate" and "distinct" do not mean the same thing.

Now getting back to quasar and him quoting Proverbs 8:22 to prove Jesus Christ was created. First of all the subject of Proverbs 8 is wisdon. And wisdom is identified as a "she" in the chapter. Secondly, the very wisdomj by which God acts is divne, it's always with Him. In other words, there was never a time when God was without wisdom. When Jesus Christ is called the wisdom of God at 1 Corithians 1:24 it mean in His humanity the human expression of Jesus Christ is Gods wisdom in action. Remember, Jesus Christ is the physical manifestation of God. So where am I going wrong? Anybody?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Zmouth]

I always get a kick out of people (who don't think things through) when they say, "Show me one verse where Jesus claimed to be God?" As if there a verse like that in the Bible it would convice them that Jesus is God? Or like quasar stated in his long list of particulars, "If Jesus is God did He rasie Himself?" Or an oldie but a goody, "If Jesus is God why didn't He know the time of His own return?"

I have heard that Jesus said that every one of faith has seen him, but most don't even know it until the hear the passage in Matthew 16:29.

They are distinct persons and the word "separate" and "distinct" do not mean the same thing.

You say they are distinct persons. Yet it is written "The Father and I are one". And then you say the word separate and distinct do not mean "the same thing" So if they are not the same thing, then they are different.

separate; adjective
1. forming or viewed as a unit apart or by itself.
separate; verb
1. cause to move or be apart.
2. divide or cause to divide into constituent or distinct elements.
"the milk had separated into curds and whey"
separate; noun
1. things forming units by themselves, in particular.

distinct; adjective
1. recognizably different in nature from something else of a similar type.
2. readily distinguishable by the senses.


different; ˈadjective
1. not the same as another or each other; unlike in nature, form, or quality.
"you can play this game in different ways"
synonyms: dissimilar, unalike, unlike, contrasting, contrastive, divergent, differing, varying, disparate; More
2. distinct; separate.

SOURCE

 

[bluto]

I have heard that Jesus said that every one of faith has seen him, but most don't even know it until the hear the passage in Matthew 16:29.



You say they are distinct persons. Yet it is written "The Father and I are one". And then you say the word separate and distinct do not mean "the same thing" So if they are not the same thing, then they are different.

separate; adjective
1. forming or viewed as a unit apart or by itself.
separate; verb
1. cause to move or be apart.
2. divide or cause to divide into constituent or distinct elements.
"the milk had separated into curds and whey"
separate; noun
1. things forming units by themselves, in particular.

distinct; adjective
1. recognizably different in nature from something else of a similar type.
2. readily distinguishable by the senses.


different; ˈadjective
1. not the same as another or each other; unlike in nature, form, or quality.
"you can play this game in different ways"
synonyms: dissimilar, unalike, unlike, contrasting, contrastive, divergent, differing, varying, disparate; More
2. distinct; separate.

SOURCE

Thankyou for your reply zmouth. I'm not sure what you mean by this statement of yours: "I have heard that Jesus said that every one of faith has seen him, but most don't even know it until the hear the passage in Matthew 16:29." First of all there is no Matthew 16:29. Did you mean vs28? Secondly, I take it your not a Christian, am I right?

Thirdly, I have faith and the point is to have faith one does not have to see Him/Jesus Christ. I take Him at His word. For instance, this is what 1 John 5:11-13 states, "And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son, vs12, He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." Vs13, "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, (why) in order that you may know that you have eternal life."

I know I have eternal life because I believed in the Son of God based on the evidence of the Bible. Like I said, based on the evidence by taking God at His word and verifying that His word is true. I'm not talking about having some sort of blind faith of just saying I believe. Faith has to be anchored on to something.

Now, I'm goin to switch gears. You said, "You say they are distinct persons. Yet it is written "The Father and I are one". And then you say the word separate and distinct do not mean "the same thing" So if they are not the same thing, then they are different." I'm going to ask you a question before we continue because you obviously trying to point out a contradiction in what I said/wrote. Can you please tell in what respect are "The Father and I/Jesus Christ are one?" Please read the context of John 10:30 and tell me how you think they are one?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Quasar92]

The following is what one member on these forums stated, "FYI, I was a Trinitatian for 45 years unbtil I got tired of trying to support it when neither the Bible, Jesus nor His disciples taught it. Supposing you show me where they do."

First of all we all know the word "trinity" is not in the Bible. But that proves nothing because "monotheism, omnipresent, omnicient, omnipotent, the word "Bible" is not in there either. However, the concept of these words are in the Bible. Now, I have read a lot of what quasar has written and there are just too many flaws in what he says because he takes verses out of context to prove his errant theology.

He says Jesus never pre-existed His incarnation and one of the verses he uses is Proverbs 8:22. I will get back to this later. But first I want to say the doctrine of the trinity is not an "assumption" as quasar seems to think. It is the normative systematic theology of God in Christianity and is BASED on the fact that the Bible is explicit in tellin gus that there is, was and forever will be only ONE God and the fact that the Bible IDENTIFIES three (and only three) persons as God.

So, how does the Bible identify the persons of the Trinity?

1) His names.
2) His titles
3) His unique attributes
4) His unique actions
5) His worship

The Trinity does not rely on any single verse in the Bible for its representation and similarly, it cannot be refuted by any single verse in the Bible. It is a doctrine that explains the nature of the one and only true God described in the Bible. It is also drawn from a HARMONIZATION of ALL of scripture and therefore can only be understood from a view that accounts for ALL the Bible.

I always get a kick out of people (who don't think things through) when they say, "Show me one verse where Jesus claimed to be God?" As if there a verse like that in the Bible it would convice them that Jesus is God? Or like quasar stated in his long list of particulars, "If Jesus is God did He rasie Himself?" Or an oldie but a goody, "If Jesus is God why didn't He know the time of His own return?"

Now, getting back to the identity issue. His names! Who is called by the NAMES of God (YHWH and its variants) either directly or indirectly but usually both. His titles! What are the recognized TITLES? (Lord, king, savior, first and last etc.)
His unique attributes/characteristic! (Omnipresence, omnipotence, eternality, omniciense etc.)

How about His unique actions! (Creation, origin of God's word, salvation of men and/or creation etc.) How about His worship? Who is given honor, reverence and position due to God ALONE? In fact, when Thomas declared to Jesus Christ Himself at John 20:28 that Jesus Christ was "his Lord and God" this was in the vain of the highest form of worship there can be.

Let me be clear that I am NOT saying that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all consistently, equally and in every mention identified as God in every place they are represented in the Bible by any combination of these 5. I am saying each person of the tgrinity receives some COMBINATION of the 5 means of identifying and distinguishing God listed above.

Another thing I noticed in reading what quasar stated was that he mixes terms thinking they mean the same thing. He equates the term "being" with the term "persons." They do not mean the same thing. He also used the word "separate" by saying the persons of the trinity are three separate persons. No they are not. They are distinct persons and the word "separate" and "distinct" do not mean the same thing.

Now getting back to quasar and him quoting Proverbs 8:22 to prove Jesus Christ was created. First of all the subject of Proverbs 8 is wisdon. And wisdom is identified as a "she" in the chapter. Secondly, the very wisdomj by which God acts is divne, it's always with Him. In other words, there was never a time when God was without wisdom. When Jesus Christ is called the wisdom of God at 1 Corithians 1:24 it mean in His humanity the human expression of Jesus Christ is Gods wisdom in action. Remember, Jesus Christ is the physical manifestation of God. So where am I going wrong? Anybody?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Why didn't you post this in the thread, "Are there three persons in God," Bluto? Are you tryomh yp hide your views from me? My posts that refute you can be found there, in posts #208; #220; #304; #305 and #320 posted below:


Please explain to me why God would prophecy in a number of places He was going to be the Father of a Son, if you claim the Son somehow appears in the beginning. The fact is, the Bible uses the term "us" , in reference to creating man in His image. The us pertained to the Pre-incarnate Jesus, whose origins are found in Pr.8:22-36. The pre-incarnate Jesus did not become the Son, until much later in Mt.1:20 and in Lk,1:35. .

Identifying the Biblical term Father as His title. Like all men are when they produce children:

A revelation of how easy it is for the Scriptures to identify God as being the Holy Spirit and Father of Jesus Christ as recorded in the Bible, documented below.

1. 2 Sam.7:14: "I will be his Father and he will be my son"
2. 1 Chr.17:13: "I will be his Father and he will be my son..."
3. Ps.2:7: "He said to me, 'You are my Son; today I have become your Father."
4. Acts 13:33: "You are my Son; today I have become your Father."
The "I" in each of the four verses above is God referring to Himself. Who is the "I" ? [Later below].

The Scriptures below tell us God is an invisible Spirit:

God is Spirit: Jn.1:18; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18; Col.1:15; 1 Tim.1:17; 1 Tim.6:16 Heb.11.27 and 1 Jn.4:12.
In addition to the Scriptures below declaring the above Spirit of God Holy:

God is Holy: Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Isa.43:3; Jos.24:19; 1 Sam.2:2; Job 6:10; Ps.99:3 and 1 Pet.1:15-16.
According to the above, there is no option to the Scriptural fact God is the Holy Spirit.

With the Scriptures documenting the identity of God as being the Holy Spirit, there is no possibility of anyone except the Holy Spirit of being the Father of Jesus Christ as well, according to Mt.1:20, Lk.1:35 and Heb.10:5.

Revealing the "I's," in the above Scriptures, who spoke of Himself as the Father of a Son to come, to be the Holy Spirit.

The origin of the pre-incarnate spirit of the person who later became Jesus Christ:
He was "brought forth," NIV - or - "born," NASB, by God [Who is the Holy Spirit according to the Scriptures], in Pr.8:22-36, before the world began. Who was "given birth" in verses 24-25, the "Craftsman at His side," NIV - or - "I was beside Him as a Master workman," NASB, in vs 30 and the "us" in Gen.1:26, 11:7 and Heb.1:2. The firstborn over all creation, recorded in Col.1:15.

From the Pr.8:22 KJV: "The Lord POSSESSED me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old." A review of Gen.14:19 and 2 2 reveals the term POSSESSOR to be translated CREATOR, in the NIV and [annotated] CREATOR in the NASB as well as Scofield's version of the KJV. Meaning that God CREATED the heavens and the earth, as well as the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit becomes the Father:

When the Holy Spirit overpowered the virgin Mary [In Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35], she conceived what became the incarnate Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God Several things happened then: 1. God, who is the Holy Spirit became the Father of Jesus, making the Holy Spirit and the Father one 'personage' [Spirit], Lk.1:35. Fulfilling the prophecy of God in 2 Sam.7:14; 1 Chr.17:13; Ps.2:7 and Acts 13:33. Repeated after being fulfilled in Heb.1:5. 2. The incarnate Jesus immediately received the Holy Spirit and His deity together with the power to give the Holy Spirit to whomever He chose. 3. Jesus said we must be born again through belief in Him, and He will give/baptize those who do, with eternal life, documented in: Jn.3:16, Mt.3:11, Mk.1:8, Lk.3:16, Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3. See also Jn.20:21-22; 1 Jn.3:24 and 1 Jn.4:13.

Note: There was no Son of God during OT times, as clearly seen in Isa.43:10. The pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus did not become the human Son of God and literally God the Son, or obtain the name Jesus until being recorded in Mt.1:20; Lk.1:31, 35 and Jn.1:14. And in Ps.45:6-7; 110:1 and Isa.7:14, repeated in Mt.1:23; 22:44 and Heb.1:8-9 when it had been fulfilled.


Quasar92

 

[TrailofTruth]

"God" is plural, and yes scripture does support that. In Genesis it says "Let US make man in OUR image" and "In the image of God they were made, both male and female." It does not say that mankind was made in the image of God AND of angels, therefore "God" is plural.

Another is in the book of John. "He was WITH God AND He WAS God." This "He" also became flesh and dwelt among us.

Another is Matthew 28:17. The apostles worshiped Jesus, and He did not correct them because they were not wrong- Jesus is God.

Another is in Hebrews where God the Father Himself calls Jesus "God". "Therefore God, your God has..."

Another is in Colossians 1. All the fullness of God is in the Son- all would include His deity.

Also in Colossians 1, knowing that God created all creation, it says NOTHING was made without Christ that has been made. God's words created life- and Jesus is the Word of God. "Let there be... And there was."

Another is Jesus said if you've seen Him you've seen the Father.

In an egg, there is a shell, a white, and a yolk, yet it is one egg. The shell is not the yolk, the white is not the shell, yet they are not separated. You might be able to separate an egg, but no one can separate God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit- they are one God- one in mind and purpose. Why is this hard to believe or accept? Christians are supposed to be of one mind and purpose, but they are not all the same person, but they are all united in the body of Christ. If we can even be one, why cannot God?

 

[Quasar92]

"God" is plural, and yes scripture does support that. In Genesis it says "Let US make man in OUR image" and "In the image of God they were made, both male and female." It does not say that mankind was made in the image of God AND of angels, therefore "God" is plural.

Another is in the book of John. "He was WITH God AND He WAS God." This "He" also became flesh and dwelt among us.

Another is Matthew 28:17. The apostles worshiped Jesus, and He did not correct them because they were not wrong- Jesus is God.

Another is in Hebrews where God the Father Himself calls Jesus "God". "Therefore God, your God has..."

Another is in Colossians 1. All the fullness of God is in the Son- all would include His deity.

Also in Colossians 1, knowing that God created all creation, it says NOTHING was made without Christ that has been made. God's words created life- and Jesus is the Word of God. "Let there be... And there was."

Another is Jesus said if you've seen Him you've seen the Father.

In an egg, there is a shell, a white, and a yolk, yet it is one egg. The shell is not the yolk, the white is not the shell, yet they are not separated. You might be able to separate an egg, but no one can separate God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit- they are one God- one in mind and purpose. Why is this hard to believe or accept? Christians are supposed to be of one mind and purpose, but they are not all the same person, but they are all united in the body of Christ. If we can even be one, why cannot God?

Calling God plural is literally calling Him a liar! Review Isa.45:5 and many other passages that clearly reveal He was the one and only God until He produced Jesus by the virgin Mary in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35! When Jesus became the Son of God/God the Son.

The pre-incarnate person who became the incarnate Jesus is recorded in Jn.17:3, 5 and the FIRSTBORN over all creation, in Col.1:15, as well as in Heb.1:1-2. The pre-incarnate Jesus is the :us: referred to in Genesis. His origin is recorded in Pr.8:22-36.


Quasar92

 

[Vdp]

So if i read you correctly Quasar92 you are a JW?

Its the JW'S who claim the Son of God was created.

The Son of God was with God in the beginning before anything was created. Its the body that the Son of God used to walk on the Earth that was created, not the Son of God.

 

[Quasar92]

So if i read you correctly Quasar92 you are a JW?

Its the JW'S who claim the Son of God was created.

The Son of God was with God in the beginning before anything was created. Its the body that the Son of God used to walk on the Earth that was created, not the Son of God.

No, I am not now or ever was a JW. The Bible teaches that Jesus was the FIRSTBORN over all creation in Col.1:15, confirming Pr.8:22-36. My position in the subject is to affirm the teachings in the Bible, not to invent them as has been done in the man made doctrine of the Trinity. Review the following Biblical description of God:

The following thread is theology, pertaining to the Biblical description of God, as it differs from the doctrine of the Trinity. It is not being posted to cause animosity between members in any way, but to seriously study the facts from the Scriptures, with an open mind. Any differences of issues will be responded to when and as posted.It is hard to understand anyone who does not believe that Jesus was/is the Son of God and literally, God the Son, according to Ps.45:6-7, 110:1 and Isa.7:14. How could it be possible for the Holy Spirit to produce the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus, by the virgin Mary, without receiving the deity of God, as found in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:32, 35? To be empowered to give/baptize with the Holy Spirit to all who receive Him as Lord? Mt.3:11, Mk.1:8, Lk.3:16, Jn.1:33, 3:16, 20:21-22, Acts 2:1-3, 1 Jn.3:24 and 1 Jn.4:13. To say nothing of performing 19 noteable miracles of healing the blind, the deaf, people with terminal illness and raising three from the dead? Do you think any ordinary human being could ever do that?

The following is God's description of Himself, directly from the Scriptures.

Let me assure you that I am fully convinced that you all love the Lord! By the same token, you can be equally certain that I love Him too. With that having been said, the following Scriptural contradiction of the doctrine of the Trinity is documented in the following, to seek and correct, the false teachings found in it, that were accepted into the Roman Catholic Church in the 4th century A.D.

1. it is necessary to properly identify God, whom both Jesus, Paul and John have done, in Jn.1:18, 4:24; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18, Col.1:15 and 1 Jn.4:12, when they identify Him as Spirit.

2. God, who is the Spirit, makes it clear that He is also Holy, in Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Ps.99:3; Ps.99:5; 1 Pet.1:15-16 and in Rev.4:8. Therefore there is no option to the fact that God is the HOLY SPIRIT. [As well as the Father, according to the Scriptures, recorded in 6. below].

3. The fact that God is the Holy Spirit - He is also known as YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, Lord, Almighty God - as well as many other names and titles all quite well known to you all.

4.God makes it clear in the OT, He is eternal, that there is no other God but He Himself. "....Before me no God was formed, nor will there be one after me." Isa.43:10. And in Isa.44:6, "....I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." See also Isa.45:5: "I am the Lord and there is no other," and in Ex.3:14: "I AM WHO I AM."

5. It can be clearly seen from the Scriptures, God is indeed the Holy Spirit. With that having been Scripturally established, what about the origin of the pre-incarnate Jesus, as well as the identity of His Father ?

Beginning in Proverbs 8, pertaining to the attributes of God's Wisdom, I refer specifically to verses 22 through 36, that clearly identify the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ as the WHO, of the Wisdom of God. [From the NIV].

"The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, before His deed of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning,

before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, [Vs 22-24]
when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before He made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. [Vs 24-26]

I was there when He set the heavens in place, when He marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when He established the clouds above and fixed securly the fountains of the deep, [Vs 27-28]

when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. I was filled with delight day after day, [Vs 29-30]

rejoicing always in His presence, rejoicing in His whole world and delighting in mankind. Now then my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. [Vs 30-33]

Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. For whoever finds me finds life and
receives favor from the Lord. But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death." [Vs 34-36]

That Jesus is the Wisdom [Power and knowledge] of God is made abundantly clear in 1 Cor.1:24 and Col.2:2-3

From the above, the Word of God clearly reveals the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ was created and is therefore not 'co-eternal' with the Spirit of God, as God stated clearly in Isa.43:10 and 44:6. [Please note: See below as to when Jesus did become the Son of God and literally God the Son] The same passage of Scripture also clearly reveals there are two 'personages' involved, not just one. God, whom the Scriptures reveal is the Holy Spirit, who is the Father and the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus Christ.In the KJV, is another example of the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus being created, in their translation of Pr.8:22, which reads as follows: "The Lord POSSESSED me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old." In a review of Gen.14:19 and 22, the term POSSESS in both, means CREATOR, i.e., that God CREATED the heavens and the earth, as well as the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus Christ, confirming Col.1:15. [Jesus received His deity from His Father as recorded in 6. below].

To further reinforce the Pr.8:22-36 passage, it can also be seen in Col.1:15, that Jesus is/was the FIRSTBORN over all creation. And in vs 18, it is written that He is the FIRSTBORN from the dead. Let it be crystal clear, the term, 'FIRSTBORN' means exactly the same in both verses! It means FIRSTBORN, not of everlasting eternity, but rather, as in Pr.8:22, He was brought forth, as the first of YHWH's works, before the world began.

6. When the Holy Spirit of God overpowered the virgin Mary, she conceived in what became the incarnate Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, several things happened:

A. God, who is the Holy Spirit became the Father of Jesus, as documented in Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35.

B. The term "Father" is the very same title all men receive after they have produced children of their own, as was the case when God, who is the Holy Spirit produced His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. Therefore, God who is the Holy Spirit and the Father are one and the same person. Fulfilling the prophecy of God in Ps.2:7, repeated after being fulfilled in Heb.1:5.

C. Jesus immediately received the Holy Spirit and His deity together with the power to give/baptize with the Holy Spirit, confirming Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16; Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3. Jesus said, whoever believes in Him is born again, through the Holy Spirit He gives/baptizes with, to those who do, and promises eternal life in: Jn.3:16, Mt.3:11, Mk.1:8, Lk.3:16, Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3. See also Jn.10:27-29, 20:21-22, 1 Jn.3:24 and 1 Jn.4:13.

At this point, we have now seen, the Spirit of God [The Holy Spirit], also known as YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, Lord God, God Almighty, etc., is also the Father. We have also seen the Father and the Son are two separate entities who are neither co-eternal nor co-equal. Jesus said the Father is greater than He in Jn.14:28 and greater than all in Jn.10:29.

7. Bringing us to the matter of Jesus remarks about He and the Father being one, that many people fail to comprehend and understand - all pertaining to the spiritual - and have nothing whatever to do with physical aspects in any way. Jesus said He and His Father are one in Jn.10:30 and Jn.17:21-22. In which He meant, as in 17:21-22, that all of us who belong to Him become one, with He and the Father, as He and the Father are one with each other. When you think about that carefully, you realize that we all become a part of the one body of Christ, [And the Father] through belief in Him. Receiving His baptism with the Holy Spirit [Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16; Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3], and become a born again Christian [Spiritually], through the one Spirit of God. 1 Cor.12:12-13. But we all retain our own physical, individual identities, in the very same way the Father and the Son do. Two Persons!

Keep in mind, the Spirit of God dwelt within Jesus when He said, "...When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be AND THAT I DO NOTHING ON MY OWN BUT SPEAK JUST WHAT THE FATHER HAS TAUGHT ME." Jn.8:28 [NIV]. Jesus also stated: "MY FATHER [THE HOLY SPIRIT] LIVES IN ME, DOING HIS WORK," in Jn.14:10. A similar case and point can be found in Lk.22:3, when Satan entered into Judas, whom he then controlled by, who is also spirit, in the same way the Spirit of God controlled what Jesus said and did. But both Jesus and Judas retained their own individuality and identity.

8. The apostles in every epistle in the Bible offer greetings to BOTH THE FATHER AND TO JESUS. If they were only one person, it is quite obvious those greetings would all have been different. By the same token, the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in any of those greetings, because the apostles all knew the Father was/is the Holy Spirit.

9. The Father and the Son are two separate 'personages.' The Spirit of God Fathered His only begotten Son. A father and a son are never only one person. Jesus prayed to the Father incessantly, as in the example of Jn.17:1-26. Jesus commended His Spirit to the Father, Lk.23:46 and the Father raised Jesus from the dead, Rom.10:9 and a number of other places. Jesus ascended, in Acts 1:9 and now sits on the right hand of the Father, Heb.10:12, as well as in other places. All those who participate in the first resurrection, are to be made priests of God and of Jesus, recorded in Rev.20:6. In the new heaven and earth, both the Father and the Son are present in Rev.21:22-23. Neither the terms Holy Spirit or Father are mentioned there, but rather Almighty God, who is the Holy Spirit, together with the Lamb, who is Jesus.

10. Pertaining to the literal description of God - Jesus stated in Jn.17:3 that the FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD. Clearly inferring that He considered Himself God as well. Otherwise, Jesus would undoubtedly have said His FATHER IS THE ONY GOD, would He not? By the same token, the Father prophecied by calling His Son, God in Ps.45:6-7, [and Lord in] Ps.110:1 and "God is with us," in Isa.7:14. After they were fulfilled, they were repeated in Mt.1:23, 22:44 and in Heb.1:8-9. In Col.1:15, Jesus is called the image of the invisible God. [Though the Father is Pure Spirit, Jesus had a human/physical body [According to Lk.2:6-7; Jn.1:14 and Heb.10:5], later changed to an imperishable, immortal resurrection body, as seen in 1 Cor.15:44,52-54, whose pre-incarnate Spirit was created, according to Pr.8:22-25]. Though there is no question as to Jesus deity, the proper description of God is the following: [As documented in 6. above]

11. ONE TRUE GOD AND JESUS CHRIST, THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD/AND LITERALLY, GOD THE SON [As in Isa.7:14, fulfilled in Mt.1:23]. THEREFORE OUR GODHEAD CONSISTS OF THE FATHER, WHO IS THE HOLY SPIRT AND THE SON, WHO IS JESUS CHRIST.

12. Why is the doctrine of the Trinity in error? Neither Jesus nor His apostles ever taught a Trinity! It cannot be taught nor supported from the Bible. Because God is identified as the Holy Spirit, in the Bible, by Jesus in Jn.4:24, by Paul in Rom.1:10; 2 Cor.3:17-18 and Col.1:15, and John in Jn.1:18 and in 1 Jn.4:12. And that He is Holy, in Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Ps.99:3; Ps.99:5; 1 Pet.1:15-16 and in Rev.4:8. With that having been Scripturally established, there is no option to the fact the Holy Spirit is therefore also the Father of Jesus Christ, as found in Mt.1:20 and Lk,1:35. Which means there is one personage consisting of the Holy Spirit, who is also the Father, and the second personage, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, [Literally, God the Son] also referred to as God by the Father, in Ps.45:6-7, Lord in 110:1 and Immanuel which means "God with us," in Isa.7:14. Repeated in Mt.1:23, 22:44 and in Heb.1:8-9 when it was fulfilled. Obviously only two personages, not three. That is also the reason why Mt.28:19 can clearly be seen as having been was altered by attempts to make the Holy Spirit and the Father, His title, two persons instead of the one that they are. [And 1 Jn.5:7 which is an insert, that does not appear in any of the early Greek manuscripts]. Jesus would never have made such a statement, when He knew very well, His Father [which is the very same title all men receive after they have produced children of their own], is the Holy Spirit.

13. mTherefore, The description of God through the doctrine of the Trinity or any of the man made Creeds is quite impossible. Because Jesus and the Father are two separate personages [One by the One Spirit, as all we believers are, as found in Jn.17:21-22 and 1 Cor.12:12-14]. The Father [The Holy Spirit] and the Son [Jesus, whom the Father calls God], are neither co-eternal nor co-equal, as recorded in Pr.8:22-36; Jn.14:28 and Jn.17:3. The three personages described as the Formula for the doctrine of the Trinity, consists of the "Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit;" which is, in fact, identifying the Holy Spirit and the Father as two personages, when they are but one, according to the documented Scriptures addressed above. In addition to the Father and the Son being two entirely separate individuals.


Quasar

 

[lastofall]

[for me anyway] The word trinity was an invented word merely to describe (Matthew 28:19). But as for me the wise and prudent which also can be known as the scholastic achievers, they did not have to invent and prescribe anything to God's Word, because it indeed stands on its own, and we ought not to think nor speak above that which is written. It is the same matter with the word beatitudes which is another made up word; if we must needs refer to the blessing in Christ's Sermon for recognition, then just call them blessing, and that is enough; we do not need scholastically achieving impute, rather we are suppose to be babes.

 

[TrailofTruth]

Ok, let me clear some of this up. Yes, Jesus was created. How can the fullness of God go into the Son if it was already there, if He was already there? The very meaning of son is one produced from parents, in this case one parent. Mary is not God the Father's wife, and no part of Mary produced Jesus, only His physical body on the earth, when He became flesh and dwelt among us. So then if Jesus was created without a mother, all the fullness of the Father only is in Him, unlike me where you can see both my biological father and mother in my face. Spiritually, Jesus is only of the Father.

The Father said "Let there be Light" and there was Jesus Christ. This light was not the sun, moon, and stars, that was day 4. Jesus (the Light) then spoke all else into creation. Colossians 1 says that without Jesus NOTHING was made that has been made. And the bible says that God created the heavens and the earth- therefore Jesus, just like the Father, is God. So many have a problem with that, saying that God is not plural, yet these same people believe in God the Father and God the Holy Spirit (Whom the bible calls a "He" not an "it").

"Let US make man in OUR image"- God is plural

"Therefore God, your God has set you above the Angels..."- God is plural

"He was WITH God and He WAS God."- God is plural

"He shall be called Mighty God, Prince of Peace."- Jesus is God, and so is the Father and Holy Spirit- God is plural.

 

[TrailofTruth]

Oh I forgot to add...

Jesus was the firstborn from the dead never to die again. But He was also the firstborn over all creation, and then He created all things.

 

[trofimus]

Oh I forgot to add...

Jesus was the firstborn from the dead never to die again. But He was also the firstborn over all creation, and then He created all things.

First born is not the same thing as "first created". He was not created.

He is the first one born of God, we will be next.

 

[trofimus]

Cann the Trinity be Biblically proven?

We can prove from the Bible, that:

1.
Son is God
Father is God
Holy Spirit is God

2. They are distinct from each other and they are persons.

3. And finally, that there is only one God.

The word "Trinity/Triunity" is the summary of all this - three distinct persons in one God.

Quick ref - Bible Verses Proving the Trinity

 

[valiant]

it is all very simple really, although difficult to explain in human terminology.

Jesus was the outshining of God's glory, the express representation of His substance. No one could reveal the full glory of God, except God Himself. Nor could One be the exact representation of His substance if He was not God.

Anyone studying carefully the New Testament can see that 'Lord' had a unique meaning when applied to Jesus and that was as YHWH Himself.

Phil 2.5-11 makes this clear. The Name above every Name was the Name of YHWH, and He is finally declared to be Lord (YHWH) using the Greek term from the LXX for YHWH

Thus He could say, He who has seen me has SEEN the Father in a context where it was intended literally (John 14.7-9).(He was the express image of the Father). He constantly made clear the oneness of the Father with Himself in this regard. Thus He could claim EQUAL honour with the Father (John 5.23).

Anyone who mixes up the feminine wisdom of God of Proverbs 1-8 with the Son is clearly not thinking. Solomon was talking about wisdom as an attribute of God, not about a personality within the Godhead,.

This is quite apart from the verses where Jesus is actually said to be God. Thus in 2 Peter 1.1 He is said to be 'our God and saviour Jesus Christ' using the exact wording in all other regards that he uses again in verse 11 when he calls Him 'our Lord and Saviour'.

Finally His Godhead shines forth from the New Testament. For example, to have the same glory as God meant that He was God (John 17.5).

The failure to recognise the Godhead of Jesus is a sign of the antichrist.

 

[bluto]

No quasar, I'm not trying to hide anything, ESPECIALLY not from you. The other thread had over 500 responses and I am trying to keep this simple by asking simple questions. You on the other hand cut and paste just about all of your post and they are longer that the classic book "War And Peace." Even here you started right in asking me the following, "Please explain to me why God would prophecy in a number of places He was going to be the Father of a Son, if you claim the Son somehow appears in the beginning"

You never addressed one word of my post, why? Everything I wrote is not hard to understand and furthermore it's totally Biblical. So, here is my first question? We know the Bible identifies God the Father as God. The Bible also identifies the Holy Spirit as God at Acts 5:3.4. So tell me, is Jesus Christ anywhere in the Bible identified as God? I don't mean a little god/another god or even a god. Is Jesus Christ identified as God Almighty in the Bible by the following 5 means? 1) His names. 2-His titles. 3-His unique attributes. 4-His unique actions. And 5- His worship.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[mpaper345]

So if i read you correctly Quasar92 you are a JW?

Its the JW'S who claim the Son of God was created.

The Son of God was with God in the beginning before anything was created. Its the body that the Son of God used to walk on the Earth that was created, not the Son of God.

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Jesus is not a created God,which God said there was no God formed after Him,and He is from everlasting,which means He has no beginning as being God,but has a beginning as the Son,the man Christ Jesus,for God sent forth His Son,made of a woman,made under the law,and made according to the flesh,which Jesus is the firstborn according to His humanity,for He was the first human to be in the spiritual kingdom of God,and He is the firstborn of the dead.

 

[Quasar92]

Thanks to all those of you who have contributed input to the Biblical description of God and origin of the pre-incarnate Jesus in my post #8 above. May I suggest you all review it very carefully, because what is written comes straight from the Bible and is not something to be dismissed and cast aside because it doesn't fit your particular belief system. Having been a Trinitarian myself for 45 years, who discovered it could not be explained from the Bible, nor taught by Jesus or His disciples, I set forth on a 32 year study of how God described Himself. Out of which came my post #8. As a qualified teacher of the Bible in which my earned credentials come from two different Bible Colleges, I challenge you to prove anything posted there to be false. With that having been said, I will say no more at this time, until I hear more from you all.


Quasar92.

 

[Tintin]

There's a freakin' Search button at the top right of your screen. Use it.

 

[Quasar92]

The OP asks if the Trinity can be proven by the Bible. The answer to that question, is NO, IT DOES NOT. Neither the Bible, Jesus, nor His disciples ever taught the Trinity.


Surprising admissions that the Trinity is not taught from the Bible!

Shocking Admissions by Joel Hemphill

http://www.ucg.org/booklet/god-trinity/trinity-biblical/

It may surprise you to learn the doctrine of the Trinity was never taught by Jesus, His disciples or can it be taught from the Bible.


Notice these admissions from a number of reputable sources and authors who, while themselves affirming the Trinity, acknowledge that the word "Trinity" and the doctrine is not found in the Bible.
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia acknowledges that "'trinity' is a second-century term found nowhere in the Bible, and the Scriptures present no finished trinitarian statement" (1988, Vol. 4, "Trinity," p. 914). It further states that "church fathers crystallized the doctrine in succeeding centuries"—long after the apostles had passed from the scene.


The HarperCollins Bible Dictionary tells us, "The formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the NT [New Testament]" (Paul Achtemeier, editor, 1996, "Trinity").


The Harper Collins Encyclopedia of Catholicism states: "Today, however, scholars generally agree that there is no doctrine of the Trinity as such in either the OT [Old Testament] or the NT [New Testament] . . . It would go far beyond the intention and thought-forms of the OT to suppose that a late-fourth-century or thirteenth-century Christian doctrine can be found there . . . Likewise, the NT does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity" (Richard McBrien, general editor, 1995, "God," pp. 564-565).
The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, in its article on the Trinity, explains: "Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies . . . It was not until the 4th century that the distinctness of the three and their unity were brought together in a single orthodox doctrine of one essence and three persons" (1985 edition, Micropaedia, Vol. 11, p. 928).


The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology points out that "primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the Trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds of the early church" (Colin Brown, editor, Vol. 2, 1976, "God," p. 84).



Historian and science fiction writer H.G. Wells, in his noted work The Outline of History, points out, "There is no evidence that the apostles of Jesus ever heard of the trinity—at any rate from him" (1920, Vol. 2, p. 499).


Martin Luther, the German priest who initiated the Protestant Reformation, conceded, "It is indeed true that the name 'Trinity' is nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures, but has been conceived and invented by man" (reproduced in The Sermons of Martin Luther, John Lenker, editor, Vol. 3, 1988, p. 406).


The Oxford Companion to the Bible states: "Because the Trinity is such an important part of later Christian doctrine, it is striking that the term does not appear in the New Testament. Likewise, the developed concept of three coequal partners in the Godhead found in later creedal formulations cannot be clearly detected within the confines of the canon [i.e., actual Scripture]" (Bruce Metzger and Michael Coogan, editors, 1993, "Trinity," p. 782).


Professor Charles Ryrie, in his respected work Basic Theology, writes: "Many doctrines are accepted by evangelicals as being clearly taught in the Scripture for which there are no proof texts. The doctrine of the Trinity furnishes the best example of this. It is fair to say that the Bible does not clearly teach the doctrine of the Trinity . . . In fact, there is not even one proof text, if by proof text we mean a verse or passage that 'clearly' states that there is one God who exists in three persons" (1999, p. 89).
Ryrie goes on to state: "The above illustrations prove the fallacy of concluding that if something is not proof texted in the Bible we cannot clearly teach the results . . . If that were so, I could never teach the doctrine of the Trinity" (p. 90).


Millard Erickson, research professor of theology at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, writes that the Trinity "is not clearly or explicitly taught anywhere in Scripture, yet it is widely regarded as a central doctrine, indispensable to the Christian faith. In this regard, it goes contrary to what is virtually an axiom of biblical doctrine, namely, that there is a direct correlation between the scriptural clarity of a doctrine and its cruciality to the faith and life of the church.


"In view of the difficulty of the subject and the great amount of effort expended to maintain this doctrine, we may well ask ourselves what might justify all this trouble" (God in Three Persons: A Contemporary Interpretation of the Trinity, 1995,p. 12).


Professor Erickson further states that the Trinity teaching "is not present in biblical thought, but arose when biblical thought was pressed into this foreign mold [of Greek concepts]. Thus, the doctrine of the Trinity goes beyond and even distorts what the Bible says about God" (p. 20).



Professor Erickson later points out: "It is claimed that the doctrine of the Trinity is a very important, crucial, and even basic doctrine. If that is indeed the case, should it not be somewhere more clearly, directly, and explicitly stated in the Bible? If this is the doctrine that especially constitutes Christianity's uniqueness . . . how can it be only implied in the biblical revelation? . . . For here is a seemingly crucial matter where the Scriptures do not speak loudly and clearly.


"Little direct response can be made to this charge. It is unlikely that any text of Scripture can be shown to teach the doctrine of the Trinity in a clear, direct, and unmistakable fashion" (pp. 108-109). Later in this booklet we will consider various scriptures often used to support the Trinity doctrine.


Shirley Guthrie, Jr., professor of theology at Columbia Theological Seminary, writes: "The Bible does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity. Neither the word 'trinity' itself nor such language as 'one-in-three,' 'three-in-one,' one 'essence' (or 'substance'), and three 'persons,' is biblical language. The language of the doctrine is the language of the ancient church taken from classical Greek philosophy" (Christian Doctrine, 1994, pp. 76-77)."


Historic origins of the doctrine of the Trinity: Is the Trinity Biblical

Is the Trinity Biblical


The Biblical description of God, Yahweh, and of Jesus, Y'Shua, is recorded in post #8 above.





Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Posted in error. Please delete.