144,000

[Straightshot]

"the Old Testament saints were under the law and sin required a blood sacrifice...aka lambs blood....the cross was the final blood sacrifice for the sins of the world...the final Lamb, Jesus Christ ushered in GRACE through faith through the Holy Spirit .once the church age is over and raptured, Holy Spirit which is how we are sealed is removed from earth then God will then turn to Israel once again (works)"


Absolutely true

I would suggest that His holy spirit will be present during the tribulation and is always present continuously

However, the Lord will reduce His "restraining" from what it is today to allow for Satan's coming to the earth and to present his mimic [2 Thessalonians 2:8-12; Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 13:1-4; 17:8-18] to a world that has refused to believe the truth about Him

 

[Jillyanne]

It is faultless, but the opportunity to accept it is now.....it doesn't become noneffective, it becomes "your time to accept it has expired, and now You will have to endure a time of trouble and tribulation like never before. You will have to work very hard not to accept the mark of the beast....you become active in your salvation

 

[kennethcadwell]

Kenneth

His return will be to do two things, one after the other .... immortalize his true ecclesia of the both the dead and living ..... and He will immediately administer His judgments upon an unbelieving world .... He will do both personally

He will not be seen by earth dwellers during the tribulation ..... but will appear visibly just after [Zechariah 14]

His splitting of the mount of olives will occur at the middle of the tribulation period for the routing of Israel to the east for their protection [Matthew 24:15-16]

The 144000 .... a different matter .... these will be sealed just before just before His judgments begin in Revelation 8

And they will take the gospel of the kingdom first to Israel and then to the nations of the gentiles during the tribulation

Seeing them on Mount Zion [in Jerusalem] with the Lord gives insight that He will lead them in the process .... they will be aware of His presence just as were the apostles .... He will dispatch them from Jerusalem just before the first judgment falls upon the earth [Revelation 6:12-17; 8:6-12; 14:8; 17:16-18; 18:1-21]

The gospel message being spread is already taking place, this has been happening since it was charged to the Apostles to carry it out in the great commission of Matthew 28. There is no need for the 144,000 to minister the gospel during the tribulation because it is already being done.
The 144,000 are standing beside the Lord when He makes His physical showing to the world. He comes in the clouds to call His church home, so that the man of sin can be revealed. The falling away and the removal of the Holy Spirit that still restrains him. If the Holy Spirit is taken then we of the church have to be taken as well, for the scripture makes it clear He will never leave us.

 

[Bookends]

[h=3]A New Covenant[/h]7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers (of Jewish decent) in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people (these are those who follow Christ in the Church). 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. (no more do we need manly priest to tell us what the Word of God is. The Jews depended on priest and prophets for teaching, now we have God's word and His Spirit to teach us)12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds[b] I will remember no more.”[c]
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

[Jillyanne]

We are sealed by the Holy Spirit 144,000 are sealed with a mark. Spirit vs. Flesh

 

[Bookends]

The gospel message being spread is already taking place, this has been happening since it was charged to the Apostles to carry it out in the great commission of Matthew 28. There is no need for the 144,000 to minister the gospel during the tribulation because it is already being done.
The 144,000 are standing beside the Lord when He makes His physical showing to the world. He comes in the clouds to call His church home, so that the man of sin can be revealed. The falling away and the removal of the Holy Spirit that still restrains him. If the Holy Spirit is taken then we of the church have to be taken as well, for the scripture makes it clear He will never leave us.

Where does it ever say the Holy Spirit is taken out of this world?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is faultless, but the opportunity to accept it is now.....it doesn't become noneffective, it becomes "your time to accept it has expired, and now You will have to endure a time of trouble and tribulation like never before. You will have to work very hard not to accept the mark of the beast....you become active in your salvation

it will still be of faith. The gospel has never changed,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We are sealed by the Holy Spirit 144,000 are sealed with a mark. Spirit vs. Flesh

They are sealed by the spirit also.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Then your eschatology is going back to temple, priest and sacrifice...trampling the blood of Christ. Why would God go backward to a covenant that God considered incomplete? Hebrews 8:6-7
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
A New Covenant

7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

The issue is that you like others look at it from only a Christian point of view.

From the Jewish point of view, 46% of the Jews want a temple rebuilt and have stated they will return to the old ways of animal sacrifice when it is done. They do not believe Jesus to be the Messiah, and still hold to the old ways, they just don't do the sacrifices now because there is no temple, no holy of holies, and therefore no place to put the ark of the covenant when it is revealed back to the public.

Then from a bible prophecy standpoint it will happen to, for the antichrist will make a peace treaty and then break it putting an end to the animal sacrifices; stand in the holy of holies and claim to be God.

 

[Jillyanne]

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

 

[Straightshot]

The gospel of His coming millennial kingdom Kenneth [Matthew 24:14] ... this is what the 144000 will be preaching during the tribulation period which is what the Lord is projecting for the time of the end in the passage

It is true that the believer has the Lord's holy spirit, but His spirit is even more and every where all of the time continuously [Revelation 5:6] .... even during the tribulation

Only restraint is applied [taken out of the way] for the coming of Satan [Revelation 12:12] .... this is different than residence in the believer .... same spirit, but different function

There will be people saved during the tribulation period and this requires the work of the Lord's holy spirit

 

[Jillyanne]

The gospel of His coming millennial kingdom Kenneth [Matthew 24:14] ... this is what the 144000 will be preaching during the tribulation period which is what the Lord is projecting for the time of the end in the passage

It is true that the believer has the Lord's holy spirit, but His spirit is even more and every where all of the time continuously [Revelation 5:6] .... even during the tribulation

Only restraint is applied [taken out of the way] for the coming of Satan [Revelation 12:12] .... this is different than residence in the believer .... same spirit, but different function

There will be people saved during the tribulation period and this requires the work of the Lord's holy spirit

God spoke to Moses through a burning bush because He did not have the Holy Spirit inside Him, he had to obey God through His FLESH, the tribulation will be the same because they will have to be obedient unto death or perish. This is our window of opportunity to be sealed by the Holy Spirit. Just my opinion that doesn't really matter

 

[kennethcadwell]

[h=1]2 Thessalonians 2:3-8[/h]3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[a] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[b] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[c] who now restrains will do so until He[d] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.


We see here that not tell the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way will the man of sin, antichrist, man of lawlessness will be revealed. The Holy Spirit is still ever present in our lives, so the man of sin can not be revealed yet. If the Holy Spirit goes, we the members of the church body have to be taken to for He made it clear He will never leave us. So we would still have to be with Him.

 

[Bookends]

There are many things I could say, I could shoot down this preter stuff as i have many times. But I won't waste my time. I would rather preach the cross, as it is the only truth and the only way. This preter stuff is way out and I mean a cop out, it is way of saying yet I live in sin and praise myself I'm going to heaven, but heaven is already here and I don't want that heaven. It is self righteousness and will be rejected by God.

You don't understand my brand of preterism.. You know prophecy isn't very interesting or exciting if most of it is fulfilled, gotta keep it interesting by throwing into the future to grab the attention of the naive, and make some bucks on the side and get rich.

 

[kennethcadwell]

You don't understand my brand of preterism.. You know prophecy isn't very interesting or exciting if most of it is fulfilled, gotta keep it interesting by throwing into the future to grab the attention of the naive, and make some bucks on the side and get rich.

The problem is of those who take and say a prophecy has been fulfilled by given events from history that do not fit if you actually look into it.
Plus the other problem is saying things have taken place, but not even mention other events from the OT that has not been fulfilled as if they don't exist. Putting the cart before the horse.

Instance:

Has Damascus been destroyed to where it is no longer a city in Syria ? NO

Has the Holy Spirit been taken away ? No

Has at any time in history since Israel became a nation in 1948, has Israel's bordering countries been defeated at one time in one war ? NO

 

[Jillyanne]

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[a] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[b] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[c] who now restrains will do so until He[d] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.


We see here that not tell the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way will the man of sin, antichrist, man of lawlessness will be revealed. The Holy Spirit is still ever present in our lives, so the man of sin can not be revealed yet. If the Holy Spirit goes, we the members of the church body have to be taken to for He made it clear He will never leave us. So we would still have to be with Him.

I believe the Holy Spirit will be removed from the earth when the church is raptured at the beginning of the tribulation. After that, I believe many will come to Christ through the preaching of the 144,000 with a physical mark on their heads and they will preach obedience to God......"dudes, you rejected Christs sacrifice on the cross, here's what he did for you, he still loves you but now you must DO what He says (not accept the mark or spend eternity in Hell)

 

[Bookends]

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[a] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[b] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[c] who now restrains will do so until He[d] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.


We see here that not tell the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way will the man of sin, antichrist, man of lawlessness will be revealed. The Holy Spirit is still ever present in our lives, so the man of sin can not be revealed yet. If the Holy Spirit goes, we the members of the church body have to be taken to for He made it clear He will never leave us. So we would still have to be with Him.

How convenient of you not to highlight the first part of verse 7, Paul was talking to Christians in his day, the man of lawlessness was someone in his day and was already at work!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How convenient of you not to highlight the first part of verse 7, Paul was talking to Christians in his day, the man of lawlessness was someone in his day and was already at work!

have to disagree. it says the mystery of lawlessness was at work in his day.

It says the man will not be revealed until the restrainer is removed.

The question is, who or what is the restrainer that restrains

 

[kennethcadwell]

I believe the Holy Spirit will be removed from the earth when the church is raptured at the beginning of the tribulation. After that, I believe many will come to Christ through the preaching of the 144,000 with a physical mark on their heads and they will preach obedience to God......"dudes, you rejected Christs sacrifice on the cross, here's what he did for you, he still loves you but now you must DO what He says (not accept the mark or spend eternity in Hell)

I do believe the church is taken when the Holy Spirit is taken as well.
The 144,000 though I do not believe that is the case, because that is what the two witnesses were sent to do.
The only ones who are on earth that have a mark are those who follow and are of the man of sin.

 

[Jillyanne]

Mystery of lawlessness is not the same as lawless ONE