Not By Works

PHart · Aug 29, 2017

But that's not the argument. In non-OSAS you receive eternal life the instant you first believe. And you possess the life that is eternal as long as you believe.

The condition to keep it is that you continue in the believing that you started out in. You are presently saved as long as you are presently believing. And whether people realize it or not, saying that the truly saved person will always believe is the equivalent of saying that continued believing is a requirement for being saved.

The difference between what I believe and what many believe here is not the matter of whether or not one has to keep believing to the very end to be saved, but rather whether or not the true believer is able to stop believing.

Cee · Aug 29, 2017

The issue I have is the idea that we are not already saved.

Scripture writers testified to their audience, we believe better things for you. Things that accompany salvation. A portion of discipleship is the process of encouraging people of who they are in Christ now. If we believe in Christ we ARE saved. And this is a new creation reality. The old dies and the new man is here. We are reborn. Lead of the Spirit. The same power in Him in us. We are sealed with Him. Fully loved by Him. If people are waiting till the end of their lives to find out if they know God or not. There is a bigger issue here. God brought Himself into us. It's not simply about "getting life", but about having LIFE now. How will someone bear the fruit of the Spirit if they aren't confident they HAVE the Spirit?

PHart said:

PHart · Aug 29, 2017

UnderGrace said:

He himself denounced the reality of God, so the issue of judging the truth by his life is off the table. He said plainly that the God of the Bible can not be true because of all the suffering in the world.

PeterJens · Aug 29, 2017

dcontroversal said:

The point you are missing here, is the one which puts you in the light.
We are talking about the heart, our emotions, our souls and walking in the light before God.

It centres on loving God with everything we have and loving our neighbour.

Now if you follow G7's logic this is impossible.

Now this is the compromise the pharisees had also. They were fine appearing to be religious
while not actually knowing God or following Him.

Now hidden in the words spoken, and the arguments and attacks put forward the same position
is being put forward. It is ok to be a sinner because we can be nothing else till Christ returns.

Now the slander you are putting forward is to suggest those who believe in real righteous walking
are just fake pharisees appearing to be righteous while actually being hypocrites.

With your belief system, there is no other way you could see it.
But I would ask you to suspend your own position and wonder, if Jesus can make you walk righteously,
cleansed, purified, whole for 5 minutes, would this not be the fulfillment of the cross?

The problem with your position dc. is you never answer this question.
Because you do not have an answer because you are scared of its consequences. We are not.

And we see, like light dawning on a dark day, Christ intends us to know this walk, to be like Him,
to have His heart, not as an idealistic dream in never never land, but today, here and now.

It is the world who denies this is possible, which is why I side with God and the cross, Amen.

preacher4truth · Aug 29, 2017

If any person believes they are not saved at, um, salvation (really it's that they don't want others to believe because they themselves don't believe) show they do not believe Christ; John 5:24&c, and haven't truly believed the Gospel.

PHart · Aug 29, 2017

Cee said:

You're not hearing the argument. In non-OSAS you are most certainly saved and born again and have eternal life when you believe. You have the promise now. The point is, you must continue to believe in order to continue to possess the salvation you most surely have as a result of that believing.

Banks81 · Aug 29, 2017

Hi,
What does "non-OSAS" mean?

I find it hard to imagine that people who believe, could suddenly one day not or rather stop believing?
Perhaps they still believe but have strayed off their path with God and no longer make their relationship with Him the centre of their lives. Either way belief is belief, and God never takes things away from us...

#Cee, would you agree that there are a few people who have not yet received the gift of the spirit? I ask because I myself used to struggle with confidence that I have the Spirit. It took me a long time to realize I did have it and to feel confident with it... ?

PeterJens · Aug 29, 2017

Cee said:

I think we may in a real sense be saved, but pride, the feeling of privilege and attainment
is a dangerous thing and often leads to sin.

It is like if we had power to change things, in a creative way, we would just do it all the
time without end, because it would short circuit accepting limits and constraints and submitting
to the actual mortality and reality around. There are always limits and a limited number of solutions,
and some will fail, no matter what we do.

It would be nice to believe all could be saved, but the reality appears to be only a few will ever make
it. I have begun to see the fragility of love and the narrowness of the path, it makes you realise like
a high wire walking act, it is much easier to fall than stay where one should be, but this does not deny
the power of the walk and its importance.

PHart · Aug 29, 2017

preacher4truth said:

By the very definition of 'faith' I'd agree with you. But in non-OSAS that's not the issue. The believer really does believe and as a result he really does receive the Spirit and is born again and has eternal life. It's just that he must continue to believe in order to continue to have that life. The believer is secure and unmovable in Christ as long as he continues to access the power of God for the Day of Salvation through his believing.

Even traditional OSAS says this. The only difference is it says that the true believe can never stop believing.

preacher4truth · Aug 29, 2017

PHart said:

Everyone has heard you; you're a broken record.

So, instead of listening to you, we're hearing Jesus instead.

Not you.

Not your errant gospel.

PHart · Aug 29, 2017

Banks81 said:

The opposite of 'Once Saved Always Saved'.

Banks81 said:

Yes, most believers find that hard to believe, and so they project their own feelings about being able to lose faith onto others and say that you can not stop believing. I encounter this all the time. But the Bible very clearly warns against losing faith. Just because you or I can not imagine losing faith doesn't mean that others are the same way.

Banks81 said:

And which makes it important to distinguish between our personal failures and distance from God within our overall belief and trust in his blood vs. making the flat out decision to no longer care about or trust in God's forgiveness. Charles Templton is a good example of the difference. He did not struggle with sin within his continuing belief in Christ. He flat out determined in his heart that the God of the Bible can not be true. That is what will cause a person to lose his salvation. The growing pains and failures within our faith in Christ do not.

Banks81 said:

Read Matthew 18:23-35

23“For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24“When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25“But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.26“So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ 27“And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28“But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ 29“So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30“But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31“So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32“Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34“And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35“My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Your eyes may not see it at first because of what you have been taught, but Jesus makes it clear in the story that the man was forgiven (for real) but later had that forgiveness rescinded, and he said his Father will do the same thing to us, and that this is how it is in the kingdom. The point is, the man really was forgiven (vs.32), yet he lost that forgiveness. The failure was in his perception of what he really did receive. The Bible talks more about 'weak vs. strong faith', not so much about 'faith vs. no faith' as the church seems to only be able to view this matter of faith. Strong faith will endure to the end and be evidenced by what it does. Weak faith will more likely stumble and fall. But the point is, even weak faith solicits God's forgiveness.

Banks81 said:

That's where works come in. The Bible explains how the way we act confirms or denies the presence of the Holy Spirit in us in salvation. Those works don't earn salvation, they show the reality of it. Assurance of salvation comes from what we do. Note I said 'assurance'. Works don't secure our salvation, they assure us that we have it. Works confirm our faith, just as what Abraham and others did confirmed their faith in the promises.

eternally-gratefull · Aug 29, 2017

loveme1 said:

Believe the Testimony of the Messiah and you would receive the answer.

The Messiah said to keep even the least Commandment and teach others to do so...

Here is something to consider:

John 7

9Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? 20The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee? 21Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel. 22Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man. 23If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day? 24Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

The Messiah states you are willing to circumcise a man to keep the law of Moses.. but believe I'm breaking Sabbath by healing a man..... something telling here.

The New Covenant is GOD's law wrote on our hearts by Faith in His Son's Testimony.

a saint is someone that Keeps the Commandments of GOD and has the Testimony of the Messiah.

But without being born again of the Spirit one can not be subject to GOD's law.

It is given by Grace through Faith to set you free to love and obey GOD.. to worship in Spirit and Truth.

there you go teaching Christian growth again,

again, wrong thread! No one here teaches peopled faith will not obey, it is just the accusers accusing falsley

PeterJens · Aug 29, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

As always in an argument, saying "no one here teaches" etc is not an argument just an
observation which may or may not be true.

And some clearly do teach obeying the commands of Christ understood simply is impossible.
Therefore they are teaching that we do not obey Christ.

You cannot have people saying this is their belief and then others saying no one says this.
This is clearly not true.

But the real reason for claiming this is to try an undermine the credibility of a contributor,
which by itself is just slander and deception. The argument has always been this weak, but
the dedication of the loudspeaker is always to strong to resist. Lol.

It is a fatal mistake to think God and the Jesus are not aware of this poor attempt at deception.
But then the fact the higher ground is claimed so strongly shows the conviction is stronger than
the sense or logic or reality involved. And it is not as if the argument has changed over the last
2 years, but you would have thought they could be more imaginative,

eternally-gratefull · Aug 29, 2017

PHart said:

it might be non OSAS, but it is not truth,

john said he wrote those things so we can know we have eternal life, and by this knowledge, be able to continue ur to believe,

you have it backwards, john said knowledge of a fact we have it is the basis for belief,

you claim continued believis required for the ability t keep it, which is NOT what john said.

eternally-gratefull · Aug 29, 2017

PHart said:

Then gen your not save, your pseudo saved
you do not have eternal life, you havconditional life
your not born again, your somewhere inbetweem death and true life
and your promise is not a promise based on Gods faithfulness but on yours, i.e., you have to save yourself.

Grace777x70 · Aug 29, 2017

We have to keep 2 aspects in mind when interpreting scriptures on salvation.

Salvation manifests itself here in this earth and also for going to be with the Lord because we are in Christ - sealed by the Holy Spirit when we believed as Paul said in Eph. 1:13 ; 4:30.

Start shooting heroin in your arms today and you will NOT experience salvation - that is life and wholeness that is ours in Christ while on this earth for very long.

Confuse the 2 and we will come up with all kinds of works-based salvationists views - one which is that our loving Father throws His beloved babes in Christ children into hell and the lake of fire.

I believe we have to differentiate between "going to heaven to be with the Lord " salvation and - "being saved from the things that can destroy us here while being on this earth."

There are different manifestations of salvation in Christ - one is going to be with the Lord - the other is concerning the things of this life on earth.

The promised land is a type of being in Christ now - it is not a type of heaven as there will be no giants to fight in heaven.

Unfortunately those that believe their loving Father throws His beloved children into hell see all the warning scriptures in this light and cause many to ship-wreck their faith in their thinking while in this earth.

Moses did not get to rest in what God had already provided for the Israelites - but yet Moses is with God now.

The promised land is a type of living here on this earth by believing in the promises of God. Only Caleb and Joshua were the ones that got to experience the promises of God in the promised land because they believed in what God had said.

We can inherit now in this life some things that are of the kingdom of God because the kingdom of God is within us...however if we don't have our minds renewed to the truth in Christ ( which includes living by the Spirit within us ) - we can not experience the things of the kingdom that are available to us believers.

Scripture uses the same Greek word - " salvation, saved " = wholeness, preservation, keep safe, deliverance, make well -for both being saved from things in this life and for going to be with the Lord for eternity.

If we don't understand this difference we will continually be mis-applying scriptures that talk about "being saved here in this life from things" and "going to be with the Lord".

There is eternal salvation and there is manifestation of salvation from temporal things while on this earth. Confuse the two and we end up with a mixed up message of self-effort for going to heaven and only the blood of Jesus does that.

Jesus is either our Savior for going to be in heaven with Him or we are our own savior by helping Him. One is by grace through faith-righteousness - the other is works-righteousness.

Everyone is free to believe what they want and we can agree to disagree as well. Let's just rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal the things of Christ to us.

Let's teach and preach the love and grace of God in Christ so that Christians will have the proper nutrients to grow up in Him and experience His salvation here on this earth too - as well as for all of eternity.

Get the proper foundation down first which is Christ and His good news of the forgiveness of sins and then the warning scriptures will have their proper place.

Instead - works-based belief mindsets use them to beat the sheep up and they actually cause a mis-trust to our loving Father and Lord.

gb9 · Aug 29, 2017

PeterJens said:

2nd paragraph- do you keep all the standards that Jesus laid out in the Sermon on the Mount every hour of every day of every week......... if that answer is no ( it is, you don' , no one does.) then you should not be lecturing others on command keeping.

God and Christ are aware of this deception as well.

eternally-gratefull · Aug 29, 2017

Banks81 said:

I agree, it is worldly thinking, it is easy to see, because people are not faithful. So we trust them only as long as they are useful to us, once they let us down, our trust fades or falls away,

it is humanizing God, as if he could fail you, so since we can lose faith in people, we can lose faith in God,

satan des not want you to have faith, our enemy wants to get bus doubt, and our flesh wants to lack faith, so it is hard, especially for babes, it takes time to grow our faith, that's why personal discipleship is almost essential for new converts.

gb9 · Aug 29, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

We have to keep 2 aspects in mind when interpreting scriptures on salvation.

Salvation manifests itself here in this earth and also for going to be with the Lord because we are in Christ - sealed by the Holy Spirit when we believed as Paul said in Eph. 1:13 ; 4:30.

Start shooting heroin in your arms today and you will NOT experience salvation - that is life and wholeness that is ours in Christ while on this earth for very long.

Confuse the 2 and we will come up with all kinds of works-based salvationists views - one which is that our loving Father throws His beloved babes in Christ children into hell and the lake of fire.

I believe we have to differentiate between "going to heaven to be with the Lord " salvation and - "being saved from the things that can destroy us here while being on this earth."

There are different manifestations of salvation in Christ - one is going to be with the Lord - the other is concerning the things of this life on earth.

The promised land is a type of being in Christ now - it is not a type of heaven as there will be no giants to fight in heaven.

Unfortunately those that believe their loving Father throws His beloved children into hell see all the warning scriptures in this light and cause many to ship-wreck their faith in their thinking while in this earth.

Moses did not get to rest in what God had already provided for the Israelites - but yet Moses is with God now.

The promised land is a type of living here on this earth by believing in the promises of God. Only Caleb and Joshua were the ones that got to experience the promises of God in the promised land because they believed in what God had said.

We can inherit now in this life some things that are of the kingdom of God because the kingdom of God is within us...however if we don't have our minds renewed to the truth in Christ ( which includes living by the Spirit within us ) - we can not experience the things of the kingdom that are available to us believers.

Scripture uses the same Greek word - " salvation, saved " = wholeness, preservation, keep safe, deliverance, make well -for both being saved from things in this life and for going to be with the Lord for eternity.

If we don't understand this difference we will continually be mis-applying scriptures that talk about "being saved here in this life from things" and "going to be with the Lord".

There is eternal salvation and there is manifestation of salvation from temporal things while on this earth. Confuse the two and we end up with a mixed up message of self-effort for going to heaven and only the blood of Jesus does that.

Jesus is either our Savior for going to be in heaven with Him or we are our own savior by helping Him. One is by grace through faith-righteousness - the other is works-righteousness.

Everyone is free to believe what they want and we can agree to disagree as well. Let's just rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal the things of Christ to us.

Let's teach and preach the love and grace of God in Christ so that Christians will have the proper nutrients to grow up in Him and experience His salvation here on this earth too - as well as for all of eternity.

Get the proper foundation down first which is Christ and His good news of the forgiveness of sins and then the warning scriptures will have their proper place.

Instead - works-based belief mindsets use them to beat the sheep up and they actually cause a mis-trust to our loving Father and Lord.

here is something I think about- God brought Israel out of slavery- they rebelled, complained , dis-believed ,all the way from Egypt to canaan. but, as He promised, God took them to the promised land. when Israel got there, they refused to go in.

so, the failure was on the people, not with God. He kept every promise He made. He will not fail someone who truly believes in the One He sent.

eternally-gratefull · Aug 29, 2017

gb9 said:

Take it further,

those people pled never had faith, even after all the miracles they saw, the ones who did have faith, entered, except Moses, who was punished,

Not By Works

PHart

Guest

Senior Member

PHart

Guest

Banned

Senior Member

PHart

Guest

Banks81

Guest

Banned

PHart

Guest

Senior Member

PHart

Guest

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Banned

eternally-gratefull

Guest

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Banned

Senior Member

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Senior Member

eternally-gratefull

Guest