Is Jesus God?
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He was fully God, even when He was fully man...........Check out the story of the Mountain of Transfiguration.......and He Himself said He could call down 10,000 angels if He wished.......and He knew the hearts of man and their thoughts, and their entire lives........check out several instances of this in Scripture, such as the woman at the well.........there are numerous instances where Jesus revealed He was fully God and fully man.....
As for suggesting you seek out like minded folks, IF you deny the Holy Trinity was the point.............IF you DO NOT deny the Holy Trinity, then you should STILL seek out like minded folks. Now, to question the truth of the Holy Trinity, to doubt the Divinity of Christ is to deny both.........One either believes or does not believe. There is no fence straddling here........Jesus Himself said............they are either FOR us or AGAINST us..........
Didn't you say in your OP that you had spent YEARS studying Scripture and such? How is it possible you have not decided if you believe in the Holy Trinity or not? Seriously...........
Not dissing...........simply saying that there are plenty of folks who deny the Holy Trinity, and IF you are one of those, you should seek their fellowship..........
As for suggesting you seek out like minded folks, IF you deny the Holy Trinity was the point.............IF you DO NOT deny the Holy Trinity, then you should STILL seek out like minded folks. Now, to question the truth of the Holy Trinity, to doubt the Divinity of Christ is to deny both.........One either believes or does not believe. There is no fence straddling here........Jesus Himself said............they are either FOR us or AGAINST us..........
Didn't you say in your OP that you had spent YEARS studying Scripture and such? How is it possible you have not decided if you believe in the Holy Trinity or not? Seriously...........
Not dissing...........simply saying that there are plenty of folks who deny the Holy Trinity, and IF you are one of those, you should seek their fellowship..........
New guy here, with a new guy question....
.... Where I am now in my beliefs: I love Jesus, and hope to meet him someday. I believe Jesus died for my sins, ushering in a new era for humanity. I believe his ascension into heaven is the reason the holy spirit was sent to man. I believe we are saved through Jesus by repenting, inviting the Holy Spirit into our hearts and having faith in God. I believe that Jesus is in the Father, and the Father is in Jesus (Matt 14:20). But I don't necessarily think this means Jesus is God. Does faith require that we think Jesus is God?
)
.... Where I am now in my beliefs: I love Jesus, and hope to meet him someday. I believe Jesus died for my sins, ushering in a new era for humanity. I believe his ascension into heaven is the reason the holy spirit was sent to man. I believe we are saved through Jesus by repenting, inviting the Holy Spirit into our hearts and having faith in God. I believe that Jesus is in the Father, and the Father is in Jesus (Matt 14:20). But I don't necessarily think this means Jesus is God. Does faith require that we think Jesus is God?
)
God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. I know this much. But is it proof of omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence if one is transfigured with clothes as white as light and knows the thoughts of men? (Your examples, not mine.) I don't claim to be able to comprehend the enormity of omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence. But I think you are giving short shrift to these unfathomably large traits of God.
As for being able to call 10,000 angels, wasn't it twelve legions of angels? At 6,000 angels per legion that's 72,000 angels, not 10,000. Aside from that, Jesus actually said he could call on his Father to send twelve legions of angels. If you are arguing that earthly Jesus was omnipotent, it seems to cut the other way that he would call on the Father to send angels.
In my original post I said I believe in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. It's interesting that you continue to try to twist what I've said to characterize me as what you apparently believe to be an apostate. The Sanhedrin did much the same thing in the wee hours of the morning on Good Friday. You're not a Pharisee, are you?
I freely admit that I don't know everything about God, Christianity, and the bible. Instead, I seek. Nearly every day I learn something from the bible that I hadn't realized before. And I'm fairly certain that when I reach the end of my days I won't have reached a totality of understanding.
On the other hand, I sometimes encounter people who have a rather prideful confidence in their knowledge of scripture, doctrines, and indeed, of God's very mind. You know the type, the ones who pray standing on the street corners to be seen by others. They point to the speck of sawdust in their brother's eye, and pay no attention to the plank in their own eye.
I like how you say, "not dissing". And then you diss. Is this how Jesus talked to people? Even the people who sought to crucify him? Perhaps you should look to Jesus as an example of how to interact with others and teach them in a civil and courteous manner.
As for being able to call 10,000 angels, wasn't it twelve legions of angels? At 6,000 angels per legion that's 72,000 angels, not 10,000. Aside from that, Jesus actually said he could call on his Father to send twelve legions of angels. If you are arguing that earthly Jesus was omnipotent, it seems to cut the other way that he would call on the Father to send angels.
In my original post I said I believe in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. It's interesting that you continue to try to twist what I've said to characterize me as what you apparently believe to be an apostate. The Sanhedrin did much the same thing in the wee hours of the morning on Good Friday. You're not a Pharisee, are you?
I freely admit that I don't know everything about God, Christianity, and the bible. Instead, I seek. Nearly every day I learn something from the bible that I hadn't realized before. And I'm fairly certain that when I reach the end of my days I won't have reached a totality of understanding.
On the other hand, I sometimes encounter people who have a rather prideful confidence in their knowledge of scripture, doctrines, and indeed, of God's very mind. You know the type, the ones who pray standing on the street corners to be seen by others. They point to the speck of sawdust in their brother's eye, and pay no attention to the plank in their own eye.
I like how you say, "not dissing". And then you diss. Is this how Jesus talked to people? Even the people who sought to crucify him? Perhaps you should look to Jesus as an example of how to interact with others and teach them in a civil and courteous manner.
Prov,
you sound really defensive, to a person that you really don't know personally,..
may we vouch for PR, as hub and I consider Him a personal Friend and we highly respect
his views and opinions, which are usually 'right-on'...He's not normally an 'accuser', but
shares his educated opinions and offers others to share what he didn't get or did get on
the first go-a-round...GB
you sound really defensive, to a person that you really don't know personally,..
may we vouch for PR, as hub and I consider Him a personal Friend and we highly respect
his views and opinions, which are usually 'right-on'...He's not normally an 'accuser', but
shares his educated opinions and offers others to share what he didn't get or did get on
the first go-a-round...GB
Let me bottom line this issue prov910. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God? If so, how do you know? If not, what do you base your answer on? And there is one other option? Your not sure or you don't know? Which brings me to my last question? What would you accept as proof that Jesus Christ is God if you don't know or your not sure?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Let me bottom line this issue prov910. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God? If so, how do you know? If not, what do you base your answer on? And there is one other option? Your not sure or you don't know? Which brings me to my last question? What would you accept as proof that Jesus Christ is God if you don't know or your not sure?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
- "Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God? If so, how do you know? If not, what do you base your answer on?"
That's what I'm seeking insight into. I think p_rehbein said it best in a post on the previous page, Jesus is God on earth. As such, I think Jesus was fully human and had human traits. Clearly Jesus was able to do things that other non-divine humans could not do, for example, know God's thoughts, rise from the dead, raise the dead, walk on water, allow others to walk on water, heal the lame, turn water to wine, know people's thoughts, (the list goes on and on). (Although, disciples and prophets throughout the bible could perform various miracles.) I believe, as Jesus himself explained, that Jesus is in God, and God is in Jesus. The only way to God the Father is through Jesus.
And yet, it seems that Jesus--as God on earth--was seemingly not fully omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent like God in heaven. That's the rub. But, as I said above, I think that's explained by realizing that Jesus was God on earth, and as such He chose to take on some human traits and limitations.
That's where I am in my understanding right now. Enlighten me!
- "What would you accept as proof that Jesus Christ is God if you don't know or your not sure?"
Like I said, "Jesus is God on earth" is an apt way of characterizing what I believe. But do people claim Jesus on earth was omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent as is God in heaven? If so, I'd like someone to discuss verses like Mark 13:32 in regards to omniscience; Mark 6:5 in regards to omnipotence; and John 11:21 in regards to omnipresence.
Yeah, you're right. I can be a bit defensive, and even a bit acerbic sometimes.
On the other hand, which is less polite: suggesting the example of Jesus Christ for guidance of how to act and treat others (I am guilty of this), or accusing someone of denying the Trinity and suggesting that they seek out other like minded folks (as another person did. Twice.)?
On the other hand, which is less polite: suggesting the example of Jesus Christ for guidance of how to act and treat others (I am guilty of this), or accusing someone of denying the Trinity and suggesting that they seek out other like minded folks (as another person did. Twice.)?
The Trinity just explains to weak believers the different roles God plays in our lives. He lives in us, and on the outside is our protector and mediator against his righteous judgement on the wicked, but also is the creator and destroyer, judge and jury. The Trinity explains the role The Holy Spirit plays, Jesus, and God. There is a reason the Trinity is not in the Bible. The Bible God is one but plays 3 different roles in our lives. The Trinity is just a good way to help people understand this. Or else many people would think we believe in 3 separate Gods. And many do think we believe that until we explain the explanation of God and his 3 separate personifications all in one coming from the same God aka The Trinity.
- "Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God? If so, how do you know? If not, what do you base your answer on?"
That's what I'm seeking insight into. I think p_rehbein said it best in a post on the previous page, Jesus is God on earth. As such, I think Jesus was fully human and had human traits. Clearly Jesus was able to do things that other non-divine humans could not do, for example, know God's thoughts, rise from the dead, raise the dead, walk on water, allow others to walk on water, heal the lame, turn water to wine, know people's thoughts, (the list goes on and on). (Although, disciples and prophets throughout the bible could perform various miracles.) I believe, as Jesus himself explained, that Jesus is in God, and God is in Jesus. The only way to God the Father is through Jesus.
And yet, it seems that Jesus--as God on earth--was seemingly not fully omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent like God in heaven. That's the rub. But, as I said above, I think that's explained by realizing that Jesus was God on earth, and as such He chose to take on some human traits and limitations.
That's where I am in my understanding right now. Enlighten me!
- "What would you accept as proof that Jesus Christ is God if you don't know or your not sure?"
Like I said, "Jesus is God on earth" is an apt way of characterizing what I believe. But do people claim Jesus on earth was omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent as is God in heaven? If so, I'd like someone to discuss verses like Mark 13:32 in regards to omniscience; Mark 6:5 in regards to omnipotence; and John 11:21 in regards to omnipresence.
Your question of "seemingly" was not fully etc. is the same questions that those who do not beieve in the Deity of Jesus Christ also ask. For example, they say if Jesus is God how come He calls God the Father God and Jesus prays to God? Or, if Jesus is God how come He does not know the day and hour of His return?
One of the best answers to these questions can be found at Philippians 2:5-10. Let me first give you the context of what the Apostle Paul is trying to get across to the Philippians. I'm going to paraphrase it for the sake of brevity. They were having problems because (vs) the were not of the same mind, not maintaining the love there suppose to have and not united in spirit.
Vs3-4, Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit etc. They were only interested in their own interest when they should be putting others FIRST. What does Paul say at vs5? "Have this attitude in yourselves WHICH WAS ALSO IN CHRIST JESUS." Now I want you to catch what Paul says next because it's extremely important. Vs6, who, although He/Jesus Christ existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with Goda thing to be grasped."
That word, "although" means "in spite of the fact" or "nevertheless" or "even though" Jesus Christ always existed in the form of God. Now look at vs7, "but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being found in the likeness of men." So Jesus Christ did not cling to the prerogatives of being God. In other words, He had voluntarily taken upon Himself the form of a servant and the liken ess of a man and SUBMITTED HIMSELF TO THE FATHER in that form thereby foregoing His innate divinity and the powers associated with that divinity.
So as a man who submitted to the Father, He had to receive authority for all that He did, including raising from the dead. Jesus did not get special things that weren't already His before His incarnation. And at vs8 this restated, "And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." And if you read on to vs9,10 you will notice how God the Father will highly exalt Him and no one will be excempt from bowing down to Jesus, period. Does that make sense to you, because if it does it's suppose to.
Now, and this is a side not base on vs12, "So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING." What this DOES NOT mean is to work out our salvation in order to be saved. What the Apostle Paul does mean is for them/Philippians to work out the solution to their problems. Remember the context that they were conceited and only thought of themselves? Paul is now telling them to "work out the deliverance" of their problems. Why? Vs13, "for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." And reading the rest of the chapter Paul says at vs14, do not grumble or complain etc .
When you do Bible study the most important thing to keep in mind is the "CONTEXT." Also look up words and their meanings including even words like "for" or "therefore" and ask yourself why is it therefore and apply it to context. When people see that word "salvation" at vs12 nine times out of ten they think it means salvation proper. Any questions I will be happy to address.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Now
Father,Son,and Holy Spirit,the three relationships God has with His people designated by titles.
Father-parent of the saints.
Son-God's visible relationship to the saints for eternity,which there is one throne in heaven,and one who sits on it,the throne of both God and the Lamb,God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.
The LORD said unto my Lord,sit on my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool,for the Son must reign until His enemies are conquered,then the Son shall be subject unto the Father,that God may be all in all.
One God,one mediator between God and men,the man Christ Jesus,for only a sinless man can approach a holy God on mankind's behalf.No person sinless,God manifest in flesh,which God reconciled mankind to Himself in the person of Jesus Christ,God and man in harmony.
Jesus said all power given to Me in heaven and earth.
God exalted the man Christ Jesus to be at His right hand,exercise the throne of power until His enemies are conquered,then shall cease being at the right hand,stop exercising the throne of power,that God may be all in all.
God ruling through the man Christ Jesus for the sake of the saints.The Son at the right hand,a temporary role.
Jesus is the only person we will see in heaven,God's visible relationship to the saints forever,for if you have seen Jesus,you have seen the Father,and one throne in heaven,not two,which is the throne of both God and the Lamb,God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.
Holy Spirit-God's invisible relationship to the saints.
God said in the Old Testament that He would reveal a new name and speak to the Jews.
Jesus said I am come in My Father's name.
The Son inherited the name from the Father.
Jesus is the name of the Father.
The angel said thou shalt call His name Jesus,for He shall save His people from their sins.
Jesus is the name of the Son.
The Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.
Jesus is the name of the Holy Spirit.
The New Testament says there is but one God,the Father,and in another place one God,and Father of all,who is above all,and through all,and in you all.
The Old Testament says the Son shall be called the everlasting Father.
Jesus said if you have seen Me you have seen the Father,and it is the Father that dwells in Me,He does the works.
Jesus said when He resurrects to heaven,to not ask Him anything,but only ask the Father and He will do it.
But in another place Jesus said when He resurrects to heaven,to ask Him,and He will do it.
Father,Son,and Holy Spirit,the three relationships God has with His people designated by titles,for Father,Son,and Holy Spirit,are not names,but titles,and Jesus is the name.
Father-parent of the saints.
Son-God's visible relationship to the saints for eternity,which there is one throne in heaven,and one who sits on it,the throne of both God and the Lamb,God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.
The LORD said unto my Lord,sit on my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool,for the Son must reign until His enemies are conquered,then the Son shall be subject unto the Father,that God may be all in all.
One God,one mediator between God and men,the man Christ Jesus,for only a sinless man can approach a holy God on mankind's behalf.No person sinless,God manifest in flesh,which God reconciled mankind to Himself in the person of Jesus Christ,God and man in harmony.
Jesus said all power given to Me in heaven and earth.
God exalted the man Christ Jesus to be at His right hand,exercise the throne of power until His enemies are conquered,then shall cease being at the right hand,stop exercising the throne of power,that God may be all in all.
God ruling through the man Christ Jesus for the sake of the saints.The Son at the right hand,a temporary role.
Jesus is the only person we will see in heaven,God's visible relationship to the saints forever,for if you have seen Jesus,you have seen the Father,and one throne in heaven,not two,which is the throne of both God and the Lamb,God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.
Holy Spirit-God's invisible relationship to the saints.
God said in the Old Testament that He would reveal a new name and speak to the Jews.
Jesus said I am come in My Father's name.
The Son inherited the name from the Father.
Jesus is the name of the Father.
The angel said thou shalt call His name Jesus,for He shall save His people from their sins.
Jesus is the name of the Son.
The Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.
Jesus is the name of the Holy Spirit.
The New Testament says there is but one God,the Father,and in another place one God,and Father of all,who is above all,and through all,and in you all.
The Old Testament says the Son shall be called the everlasting Father.
Jesus said if you have seen Me you have seen the Father,and it is the Father that dwells in Me,He does the works.
Jesus said when He resurrects to heaven,to not ask Him anything,but only ask the Father and He will do it.
But in another place Jesus said when He resurrects to heaven,to ask Him,and He will do it.
Father,Son,and Holy Spirit,the three relationships God has with His people designated by titles,for Father,Son,and Holy Spirit,are not names,but titles,and Jesus is the name.