The Rapture explained in two minutes

MattTooFor · Mar 29, 2017

Have you ever wanted to know exactly what to look for in the 'end times'?

Well, so did Peter, James, John and Andrew. So they asked Jesus what to look for in the end times.

Jesus told them the first specific event they should look for is...the Abomination of Desolation...which is when the world leader (the "Antichrist") springs into action and kicks things of with a destruction of Jerusalem and a holocaust against Jewish people living in that area.

Jesus clarified that He did not know when these events would take place ("no one knows the day or the hour...but on the Father in heaven")...

...therefore, He was instructing Peter, James, John (etc.) to live with an expectation of this event, the Abomination of Desolation...

...which is immediately followed by a period of Great Tribulation...followed by the glorious "Gathering" of the believers, in which we are rescued from this world just in time for god's great day of wrath.

The point I would make is...that if Peter, James and John (the first Christians and the first Christian leaders) lived with this expectation...then so should all the rest of the Christians throughout the the Christian era...YOU AND I!!!

The question I have asked the various supporters of the alleged (and non-existent) "PreTrib" rapture is this:

If you could pull Peter, or James or John aside some 15 or 20 years later after this Olivet Discourse in which Jesus instructed them to live with an expectation of these events...

...and ask them: "Do you still heed the words Jesus gave you that day? Do you still live with the expectation of possibly having to encounter those events?"

As I have repeatedly said -- what ELSE would you expect Peter or James to say other than "well, of COURSE we still heed His words from that day! Why would we not?? Has someone come along with words that contradict Jesus' words? And how could that be possible that someone could contradict Jesus with this so-called 'PreTrib' doctrine you speak of??"

Some of the PreTrib proponents on this discussion board might very well counter with...

"First of all, you guys are the top leaders of the Christian movement. So you absolutely HAVE to be PreTrib. And by the way, Tim LaHaye, John MacArthur, David Jeremiah...these guys are a pretty big deal".

Peter: "Really? They're a 'big deal'?? Are they bigger than the Lord of Glory?"

-----------------------

Anyway...there it is -- the Rapture explained in two minutes.

It is literally so simple, a child can understand it. As I have stated elsewhere, I had my little 12-year-old daughter read through the Olivet Discourse (the Matthew 24 version). It took her fifteen minutes and afterwards she clearly understood all the pertinent aspects of the end times that every believer needs to understand.

It was amazing to me that someone here chided me for thinking my daughter could actually read the Bible and understand it. An amazingly medieval mindset. The priests back in the 1200's and 1300's kept the Bible translated only in Latin because it was thought that the "little people", the common people like you and I...were 'unqualified to read and study the Scriptures.

So the irony here is...while many of these PreTrib proponents are off in their artificially constructed jungle of unnecessarily complex pseudo-doctrines...with their fourth bowl, fifth horn, third whistle, twelfth Jews Harp, concocted/fabricated Jewish virgin evangelists...on and on and on...

...meanwhile, there is this little child who has a thousand times the understanding of these poor lost PreTrib souls.

Stay out of the jungle. Take fifteen minutes to see Jesus answer the simple questions of Peter, James and John...and who heeded Jesus' words to them throughout the remainder of their lives.

Depleted · Mar 29, 2017

Yeah, already know the theory. Just don't see it lining up with the Bible. And I really don't see it as lining up when that's all you have for your theology. I hope your daughter gets the difference when she gets older.

Ahwatukee · Mar 29, 2017

MattTooFor said:

Hello MattTooFor,

To sum it up, you have the same on-going problem, which is that, in between right now to the time that Jesus returns to end the age, the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must take place. Scripture is clear in that, believers within the church are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. Therefore, in keeping with the exegesis, believers must be removed prior to the first seal being opened, which would mean that we won't be on planet earth when the abomination is set up, nor for any of the previous events of wrath leading up to that.

Understand that, Jesus in telling his disciples the signs leading up to his return and he's not going stop and remind them of every exegetical detail.

Therefore, when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place (oh by the way, you guys don't have to worry about this because you'll be dead. And oh yeah, the church won't be here either because those who believe in me are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and I will gather them prior to those events. I'm speaking specifically about those who will be here on the earth because they will have not believed in me and therefore were not ready when I came to gather them. Israel will be here also because they did not receive me as their Messiah and during this time is when the last seven years of seventy sevens will be fulfilled in them and Jerusalem).

Do you understand? In telling his disciples the signs leading up to his return, he is not going to mention every nook and cranny regarding that time period and everything that happens in between. He was giving his disciples this information saying "when 'you' see" all these things begin to take place" yet, his disciples will have long since been dead. Likewise, the church will have been removed before these events of wrath begin. The information is therefore regarding Israel by the mentioning of the abomination being set up in the holy place of the temple and Israel fleeing out into the wilderness to that place God will have prepared for her. God will be fulfilling that last seven years in fulfillment of the seventy seven year decree and will also be dealing with the rest of the unbelieving world (Dan.2:31-45), bringing the age to its end in preparation for the Lord's thousand year reign.

MattTooFor · Mar 29, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

You have not come within a million miles of touching the simple fact that Jesus told them what to expect. He was clear in saying He didn't know the timing...as to whether these events might happen 2000 years down the road...but they were to live with the expectation of the Abomination, followed by the Great Trib, followed by the glorious Gathering.

You have no rebuttal to the Scriptures, my friend. You cannot rebut Jesus' advisories to Peter, James and John.

And if they believed in the possibility of encountering the Great Tribulation...so obviously should ALL believers live with this expectation...and NOT a fictional "PreTrib" rapture which has exactly ZERO passages in the scriptures which teach such a thing.

I ask again, if you could have asked Peter what his expectation was...how could he have answered anything other than that which Jesus told him? Would you have attempted to rebut Peter when he told you to take a hike with your fictional PreTrib doctrine? How in the world could you rebut Peter's belief in a post-Great Tribulation "gathering"? That's hilarious. I'd pay good money to see that encounter -- you trying to tell Peter he shouldn't believe what Jesus told him.

No, you are directly contradicting the Scriptures...where it says the "wrath of God" does NOT commence until AFTER the occurrence of the great cosmic signs -- the sun, moon and stars, etc.

So here you go again. It reached a point of dishonesty. I have pointed out to you time and again...the simple and clear scriptures which indicate the "wrath of God" only begins AFTER the occurrence of these great cosmic signs and which simultaneously signal the removal (rapture) of the believers.

Jesus tells Peter, James and John to look for these great signs as an indication the rapture is about to take place --

Matthew 24:29-31 --
"immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky...and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds..."

Joel 2:31 --
"The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE the great and awesome day of the Lord comes."

Further confirmation comes from Rev. 6:12,16 --

"...and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth...and they [the wicked] said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come..."

--

And that's a silly cop-out to say Peter, James and John eventually died. Jesus told them in plain language that it might very possibly happen IN their lifetimes...but that He did not know the timing -- "no one knows the day or hour except the Father"

If it was possible it COULD have happened to them...then there is no such thing as a PreTrib rapture. Peter, James and John lived with an expectation of a post-Great Trib rapture...therefore obviously should we ALSO live with this expectation.

You're dodging absolutely elementary reasoning, logic and scriptural evidence. It's amazing.

What in the world does that mean?? How does it change the ultra-simple, ultra-clear fact...that Jesus told them to live with an expectation of the Great Trib?? And if THEY lived with this expectation and NOT with an expectation of a fictional "PreTrib" rapture...SO SHOULD ALL BELIEVERS LIVE WITH THIS EXPECTATION. There is no rebuttal to this. There is no rebuttal to the Bible, my friend.

MattTooFor · Mar 29, 2017

Depleted said:

"Theory"? It's a FACT that Jesus told Peter, James and John to live with an expectation of encountering the Abomination of Desolation.

How in the world does that "not line up with Scripture" - lol. That IS "Scripture". It's written in the Scriptures in black and white. (???)

Ahwatukee · Mar 29, 2017

Well, let's see: When Jesus was speaking to his disciples he said "therefore, when 'you see' the abomination" so we know that Jesus wasn't speaking to disciples and that because they are dead. Therefore, I am correct on the first count. So, in saying "when you see" Jesus would have had another audience in mind, other than his disciples.

Continuing on with this line of exegetical reasoning, since we know that scripture also states that we "believers" are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath and that because Jesus rescues us from it, keeping us completely out of it (1 Thes.1:10, 5:9 and Rev.3:10), then the church also cannot be the audience that Jesus is referring to when he says "when you see." So, I correct on the second count.

Since the audience that Jesus is speaking of cannot be the disciples nor to the church, then it must be to that generation of Israel and the saints who be here during the great tribulation.

You have to take into consideration the rest of scripture when coming to an exegetical conclusion, ergo, if the disciples he was telling this information to are dead, then they can't be the "You" in the verse. Likewise, since scripture is clear that the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath and the setting up of the abomination takes place well into the time of God's wrath, then the church cannot be on the earth and therefore cannot be the "you" in the verse either. That leaves unbelieving Israel and the great tribulation saints.

Regarding who Jesus is speaking to regarding these events he says, "let the reader understand." Well, at the time that Jesus gave this information to his disciples, the NT hadn't been written yet. Therefore, the information was not to his disciples, who are long dead, nor to the church who will be removed prior to those events, but to those "readers" who will be here during the time when all of those vents are taking place.

Very simple!

Ahwatukee · Mar 29, 2017

And yet, they died before that event took place and is still yet future. The on-gong problem is that, you do not include all of the scriptural information. You stop short in order to support your belief. You ignore the fact that he church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath and therefore cannot be here during that time of wrath.

Willie-T · Mar 29, 2017

MattTooFor said:

Have you ever wanted to know exactly what to look for in the 'end times'?

Well, so did Peter, James, John and Andrew. So they asked Jesus what to look for in the end times.

Jesus told them the first specific event they should look for is...the Abomination of Desolation...which is when the world leader (the "Antichrist") springs into action and kicks things of with a destruction of Jerusalem and a holocaust against Jewish people living in that area.

Jesus clarified that He did not know when these events would take place ("no one knows the day or the hour...but on the Father in heaven")...

...therefore, He was instructing Peter, James, John (etc.) to live with an expectation of this event, the Abomination of Desolation...

...which is immediately followed by a period of Great Tribulation...followed by the glorious "Gathering" of the believers, in which we are rescued from this world just in time for god's great day of wrath.

The point I would make is...that if Peter, James and John (the first Christians and the first Christian leaders) lived with this expectation...then so should all the rest of the Christians throughout the the Christian era...YOU AND I!!!

The question I have asked the various supporters of the alleged (and non-existent) "PreTrib" rapture is this:

If you could pull Peter, or James or John aside some 15 or 20 years later after this Olivet Discourse in which Jesus instructed them to live with an expectation of these events...

...and ask them: "Do you still heed the words Jesus gave you that day? Do you still live with the expectation of possibly having to encounter those events?"

As I have repeatedly said -- what ELSE would you expect Peter or James to say other than "well, of COURSE we still heed His words from that day! Why would we not?? Has someone come along with words that contradict Jesus' words? And how could that be possible that someone could contradict Jesus with this so-called 'PreTrib' doctrine you speak of??"

Some of the PreTrib proponents on this discussion board might very well counter with...

"First of all, you guys are the top leaders of the Christian movement. So you absolutely HAVE to be PreTrib. And by the way, Tim LaHaye, John MacArthur, David Jeremiah...these guys are a pretty big deal".

Peter: "Really? They're a 'big deal'?? Are they bigger than the Lord of Glory?"

-----------------------

Anyway...there it is -- the Rapture explained in two minutes.

It is literally so simple, a child can understand it. As I have stated elsewhere, I had my little 12-year-old daughter read through the Olivet Discourse (the Matthew 24 version). It took her fifteen minutes and afterwards she clearly understood all the pertinent aspects of the end times that every believer needs to understand.

It was amazing to me that someone here chided me for thinking my daughter could actually read the Bible and understand it. An amazingly medieval mindset. The priests back in the 1200's and 1300's kept the Bible translated only in Latin because it was thought that the "little people", the common people like you and I...were 'unqualified to read and study the Scriptures.

So the irony here is...while many of these PreTrib proponents are off in their artificially constructed jungle of unnecessarily complex pseudo-doctrines...with their fourth bowl, fifth horn, third whistle, twelfth Jews Harp, concocted/fabricated Jewish virgin evangelists...on and on and on...

...meanwhile, there is this little child who has a thousand times the understanding of these poor lost PreTrib souls.

Stay out of the jungle. Take fifteen minutes to see Jesus answer the simple questions of Peter, James and John...and who heeded Jesus' words to them throughout the remainder of their lives.

Unfortunately, the last three words of your second paragraph were never asked.

We cannot just go assuming 'facts' not in evidence in order to make a hypothesized narrative fit our hoped-for desires.

Locutus · Mar 29, 2017

I can explain it in two words:

Came and went.....

valiant · Mar 29, 2017

Matthew 24 differentiates between 'these things' which will be (including the destruction of the Temple), and the second coming. The abomination of desolation took place in 70 ad followed by the destruction of the Temple and the great tribulation of the Jews which has lasted to this present time. It was the last of 'these things' which would happen within a generation (Matt 24.33-34).. The next to come was the second coming which had no time limit..

samuel23 · Mar 29, 2017

Hi Matttoofor; You are absolutely correct in that Jesus will return for the church in exactly the way that Jesus described His return to the apostles. However this simple truth is very hard for many professing Christians to get a handle on. Just consider yourself blessed of the Lord because you have the truth revealed to you when many professing Christians that even have great ministries do not have it revealed to them. Why are they blind to the clear literal word of God about Christ return...because they love the false pre trib rapture more then they love God's truth.

Depleted · Mar 29, 2017

MattTooFor said:

Theory -- as in something people think, but may, or may not, be fact.

How? Because he wasn't talking about rapture. The modern rapture theory is only 150-200 years old. How did Christians never "know" that for 1800 years? Simple. They understood what "caught up"/"rapturo" meant when they read it in the Bible. (It's only used four times, and when you look at those uses in context, it has nothing to do with your theory.)

And since your entire theology is about End Times, you don't study what God wants in his word. You study your version of a conspiracy theory instead. Question after question (and you don't really ask questions, you preach rapture) dozens and dozens of pages, same argument after same argument with the same people, and you simply never get to God. Just to how people are getting off this planet at its end.

Like I said, I hope your daughter gets out from under this propaganda she's growing up with. I hope you do too, but since this is all about advertising your 'e-booklet,' it's less likely.

dcontroversal · Mar 29, 2017

Matt...they will find out soon enough.....to believe a pre-trib ingathering the words saints, elect, wrath, tribulation all need to be swept under the rug, when the wrath is announced in heaven before the throne needs to be swept under the rug, the parable of the wheat and tares swept under the rug, the words of Jesus in Matthew, Mark and Luke swept under the rug, the word of Daniel swept under the rug, who Revelation is written to swept under the rug, the word KEEP as applied to the church at Philadelphia denied and swept under the rug, the war made on the saints swept under the rug, the wearing out of the saints swept under the rug, the signs in the heaven swept under the rug, who is identified as saints/elect swept under the rug, the fact that Paul taught the church at Thessalonica that suffering trib was a sign must be swept under the rug, the verbiage of the siege and fall of Jericho which verbatim follows the seals and trumps swept under the rug...and on and on and on.......

I was raised with the imminent return crammed down my throat and swallowed it like a perch does the hook, line and sinker until I wised up.......they will find out soon enough........it will be an eye opener for sure.....!

For those who want to argue the imminent return....don't even bother.....it will do no good until you can put the above points in context while being honest with the verbiage, definition of words, application of the words, the ANNOUNCED timing of the wrath of God etc.........

samuel23 · Mar 29, 2017

Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are all the same story, they are the description that Jesus gave to the apostles about His return and the gathering(rapture) of the church. There is kind of a mystery involved in the whole thing because Jesus described two events at the same time, and they are separated by close to two thousand years. The truth is that Jesus described the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, something that happened around 70ad, while He also described the time of His return and the end of the age, something that has not happened yet. Unless we understand that what he said would happen in that generation did in fact happen in that generation we are going to miss it. The destruction of the Temple and the destruction of Jerusalem and the carrying away of the Jewish people all happened around 70ad, in that generation. On the other hand, the world wide persecution of Christians, world war with disease and famine, and the heavens being shaken with Christ return in the sky to gather the church has not yet happened. So part of what Jesus said has already happened, and part of what Jesus said is yet to happen.

Willie-T · Mar 29, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Matt...they will find out soon enough.....to believe a pre-trib ingathering the words saints, elect, wrath, tribulation all need to be swept under the rug, when the wrath is announced in heaven before the throne needs to be swept under the rug, the parable of the wheat and tares swept under the rug, the words of Jesus in Matthew, Mark and Luke swept under the rug, the word of Daniel swept under the rug, who Revelation is written to swept under the rug, the word KEEP as applied to the church at Philadelphia denied and swept under the rug, the war made on the saints swept under the rug, the wearing out of the saints swept under the rug, the signs in the heaven swept under the rug, who is identified as saints/elect swept under the rug, the fact that Paul taught the church at Thessalonica that suffering trib was a sign must be swept under the rug, the verbiage of the siege and fall of Jericho which verbatim follows the seals and trumps swept under the rug...and on and on and on.......

I was raised with the imminent return crammed down my throat and swallowed it like a perch does the hook, line and sinker until I wised up.......they will find out soon enough........it will be an eye opener for sure.....!

For those who want to argue the imminent return....don't even bother.....it will do no good until you can put the above points in context while being honest with the verbiage, definition of words, application of the words, the ANNOUNCED timing of the wrath of God etc.........

Personally, I'm figuring on the return being several thousand years off into the future.

dcontroversal · Mar 29, 2017

Willie-T said:

God's timing for sure bro and like Jesus said...NO man can know the day nor the hour.........

Bladerunner · Mar 29, 2017

Depleted said:

Depleted......HI...... What theory is that....???? the Rapture.....Why are you against it? You said it doesn't line up with the Bible... I can tell you it actually does.... if yoiu read the Bible book x book, chapter by chapter, verse x verse and words by words, in that order, I think you will find lining up with the bible is not a problem.

If I could help I would...but....

Have a great Day

Blade.

Bladerunner · Mar 29, 2017

MattTooFor said:

You have not come within a million miles of touching the simple fact that Jesus told them what to expect. He was clear in saying He didn't know the timing...as to whether these events might happen 2000 years down the road...but they were to live with the expectation of the Abomination, followed by the Great Trib, followed by the glorious Gathering.

You have no rebuttal to the Scriptures, my friend. You cannot rebut Jesus' advisories to Peter, James and John.

And if they believed in the possibility of encountering the Great Tribulation...so obviously should ALL believers live with this expectation...and NOT a fictional "PreTrib" rapture which has exactly ZERO passages in the scriptures which teach such a thing.

I ask again, if you could have asked Peter what his expectation was...how could he have answered anything other than that which Jesus told him? Would you have attempted to rebut Peter when he told you to take a hike with your fictional PreTrib doctrine? How in the world could you rebut Peter's belief in a post-Great Tribulation "gathering"? That's hilarious. I'd pay good money to see that encounter -- you trying to tell Peter he shouldn't believe what Jesus told him.

No, you are directly contradicting the Scriptures...where it says the "wrath of God" does NOT commence until AFTER the occurrence of the great cosmic signs -- the sun, moon and stars, etc.

So here you go again. It reached a point of dishonesty. I have pointed out to you time and again...the simple and clear scriptures which indicate the "wrath of God" only begins AFTER the occurrence of these great cosmic signs and which simultaneously signal the removal (rapture) of the believers.

Jesus tells Peter, James and John to look for these great signs as an indication the rapture is about to take place --

Matthew 24:29-31 --
"immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky...and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds..."

Joel 2:31 --
"The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE the great and awesome day of the Lord comes."

Further confirmation comes from Rev. 6:12,16 --

"...and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth...and they [the wicked] said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come..."

--

And that's a silly cop-out to say Peter, James and John eventually died. Jesus told them in plain language that it might very possibly happen IN their lifetimes...but that He did not know the timing -- "no one knows the day or hour except the Father"

If it was possible it COULD have happened to them...then there is no such thing as a PreTrib rapture. Peter, James and John lived with an expectation of a post-Great Trib rapture...therefore obviously should we ALSO live with this expectation.

You're dodging absolutely elementary reasoning, logic and scriptural evidence. It's amazing.

What in the world does that mean?? How does it change the ultra-simple, ultra-clear fact...that Jesus told them to live with an expectation of the Great Trib?? And if THEY lived with this expectation and NOT with an expectation of a fictional "PreTrib" rapture...SO SHOULD ALL BELIEVERS LIVE WITH THIS EXPECTATION. There is no rebuttal to this. There is no rebuttal to the Bible, my friend.

Hey, will you please tell me when the Abomination of Desolate happened...Rem now there were/are/tobe two of them????? I 'll give you a hint.....It did not happen in 70AD

PLEASE ,,,,,,one of you Replacement theology people TELL ME>>>>>PLEASE

Bladerunner · Mar 29, 2017

valiant said:

where does it that..."The abomination of desolation took place in 70 ad followed by the destruction of the Temple" NEVER HAPPENED...

The Fire that burnt the temple down prevented anything else. AND who did this deed....... the Antichrist....OH what about TITUS....

You know History does not show that TITUS proclaimed himself GOD in the temple of GOD.

Come on tell us where these things you speak of are at. PROVE THEM .....Jesus will not ask you to prove them...He will just pass you over to be left behind. It is that simple.

Bladerunner · Mar 29, 2017

samuel23 said:

Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are all the same story,

NOT SO Samuel, there are big differences in Matt and Lukes account.

they are the description that Jesus gave to the apostles about His return and the gathering(rapture) of the church. There is kind of a mystery involved in the whole thing because Jesus described two events at the same time, and they are separated by close to two thousand years. The truth is that Jesus described the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, something that happened around 70ad, while He also described the time of His return and the end of the age, something that has not happened yet. Unless we understand that what he said would happen in that generation did in fact happen in that generation we are going to miss it. The destruction of the Temple and the destruction of Jerusalem and the carrying away of the Jewish people all happened around 70ad, in that generation. On the other hand, the world wide persecution of Christians, world war with disease and famine, and the heavens being shaken with Christ return in the sky to gather the church has not yet happened. So part of what Jesus said has already happened, and part of what Jesus said is yet to happen.

Oh well,, it is useless...

Blade

The Rapture explained in two minutes

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