Hi Not: Go back to square one and just read the bible, Jesus Christ described His return to gather the church in Matt 24 and Mark 13. None of you pre-trib folks will deal with this, you just pretend that it is not in the bible. If you truly from the heart believe that there is a pre-trib gathering then how do you explain that Jesus said there would be a post trib gathering?
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Even a simple reading of Matthew 24 places this in Israel.
Are you part of the church or are you part of Israel?
Why do you reject Gods blessing?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Even a simple reading of Matthew 24 places this in Israel.
Are you part of the church or are you part of Israel?
Why do you reject Gods blessing?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Some of these arguments remind me of this encounter I had with a fellow in a Baptist Church who kept arguing against my assertion that there was no pre tribulation gathering of the church. Then one day he suddenly says, what is the tribulation? The guy was willing to argue even when he did not really know what I was talking about.
Hi Not: Put on your Spock attitude(all logic and no emotion), and put aside what people have said about Matt 24 and just look at the truth. The apostles were the PILLARS of the church, they were called out from national Israel, and Jesus called them the chosen(elect) and Jesus said that He would return to gather THEM after the tribulation. Jesus also told the apostles to teach this to the church. Maybe this would help, if Jesus had returned in the lifetime of the apostles would He have gathered national Israel or the church?
Matt is right! The Apostle John backs up Jesus at 1 John when he says antichrist is coming (singular) and even now there are many antichrist. So why does the Apostle John who is writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to look for the antichrist (like Jesus said) if everbody is going to be raptured before the great tribulation?
In Him,
bluto
In Him,
bluto
M
Exactly right -- Ground Zero is Jerusalem and surrounding areas. But the Antichrist regime then spreads to all the world. What are you not understanding here? In Rev 12:17 clarifies that when the "Dragon" sees that he can not get his hands on the remaining Jews ("the righteous remnant")...he then turns around and goes after those who "hold to the testimony of Jesus" --
Rev 12:17 -- "So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."
Rev 12:17 -- "So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."
G
It is the refusal to believe in simple common-sense straight-forward evidential things like this that lead many astray...
Anyone who does not understand the simple truth that the three accounts of the Olivet Discourse are just that - three accounts of the very same exact 'event' - and, what Jesus said -- their interpretation ship has already drifted into dangerous waters...
Indeed --- God gave us all three for a reason.
Anyone who does not understand the simple truth that the three accounts of the Olivet Discourse are just that - three accounts of the very same exact 'event' - and, what Jesus said -- their interpretation ship has already drifted into dangerous waters...
Indeed --- God gave us all three for a reason.
M
I just can't get over the utter simplicity of the Olivet Discourse where Jesus tells the believers to look out for the Abomination, the subsequent Great Tribulation, followed by the glorious "gathering" of the believers.
And then how many people muck it up. Completely botch their interpretation of this simple passage. I think the key question is -- what perception did Peter, James and John have after hearing Jesus' words in the Olivet Discourse? Well.....they obviously went away believing they should keep a look-out for these events and NOT some fictional, non-existent pre-70th Week rapture. And if that WAS the perception of the original leaders of the Christian movement...
...it obviously should also be OUR perception.
That's all I'm trying to say here-- WAKE UP! THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION AND GREAT TRIBULATION ARE HEADED YOUR WAY!
And then how many people muck it up. Completely botch their interpretation of this simple passage. I think the key question is -- what perception did Peter, James and John have after hearing Jesus' words in the Olivet Discourse? Well.....they obviously went away believing they should keep a look-out for these events and NOT some fictional, non-existent pre-70th Week rapture. And if that WAS the perception of the original leaders of the Christian movement...
...it obviously should also be OUR perception.
That's all I'm trying to say here-- WAKE UP! THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION AND GREAT TRIBULATION ARE HEADED YOUR WAY!
None of this is church. It is all about Israel who is going through judgment that they will be prepared to receive Christ when He descends into Jerusalem. Israel has been carried away into captivity many times for their unbelief. The church believes and is never brought into bondage to any save the Lord Himself.
It puzzles me that any believer would teach tribulation on the church.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
It puzzles me that any believer would teach tribulation on the church.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Oh Gosh, am I really gonna jump into the fray? Maybe just a bit!
First off, the olivet discourse and Rev. isn't even close to the only Scripture dealing with this.
Even the Discourse itself needs to be diagrammed, with the differences, sometimes subtle, between Matthew's account and Luke's.
Don't have a lot of time now, but if memory serves, Matthew's account is to the People, whereas Luke's is to a much smaller group, at a DIFFERENT time, with some different questions. We just assume it is the same event told slightly differently by the 2 authors. Read again.
Ok. back to work.
First off, the olivet discourse and Rev. isn't even close to the only Scripture dealing with this.
Even the Discourse itself needs to be diagrammed, with the differences, sometimes subtle, between Matthew's account and Luke's.
Don't have a lot of time now, but if memory serves, Matthew's account is to the People, whereas Luke's is to a much smaller group, at a DIFFERENT time, with some different questions. We just assume it is the same event told slightly differently by the 2 authors. Read again.
Ok. back to work.
M
Who in the world cares about what some "prophecy proponents" said about this or that? You can set up those kinds of 'straw men' and knock them down all day long, if you want.
I would say the central question is -- What perception did Peter, James and John come away with after hearing the words of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse? If Jesus told them they should be on the look-out for the Abomination, followed by great tribulation, followed by a spectacular, supernatural "gathering" of believers from the "four winds" and from "one end of the heavens to the other"...then THAT is the perception they had.
And if that is the perception the original leaders of the Christian movement had....then it is the perception WE should have. And even the most crazed "preterist" would need to concede this spectacular return of the Lord has not yet occurred...with its supernatural 'transporting' of believers from across the world and across the universe ("from one end of the heavens to the other") with the aid of "angels" and "trumpets" and "shouts".
I would say the central question is -- What perception did Peter, James and John come away with after hearing the words of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse? If Jesus told them they should be on the look-out for the Abomination, followed by great tribulation, followed by a spectacular, supernatural "gathering" of believers from the "four winds" and from "one end of the heavens to the other"...then THAT is the perception they had.
And if that is the perception the original leaders of the Christian movement had....then it is the perception WE should have. And even the most crazed "preterist" would need to concede this spectacular return of the Lord has not yet occurred...with its supernatural 'transporting' of believers from across the world and across the universe ("from one end of the heavens to the other") with the aid of "angels" and "trumpets" and "shouts".
M
OK. And this amazing, astounding, ultra-spectacular rapture ("gathering") with trumpets and shouts and huge unprecedented cosmic signs (the sun and moon and stars, etc.) and "great glory" and which causes all the wicked of the world to mourn and say "this is the great day of God's wrath"...
...when did that happen?
...when did that happen?
G
NO... you have read them wrong.
For someone to decide that what the Luke account is talking about must be different than what the Matthew and Mark accounts are talking about because "they sound different" is only very bad failed reasoning.
You must begin with the fact that all three accounts are talking about the same thing. ( To deny this is self-deception. ) Sure, one account may include details that the other two leave out - or vice versa. However, the overall "theme" and subject matter is the same. And, Luke 21:20-24 may certainly be associated with Matthew 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-20 -- because, all three are absolutely, most definitely, referring to the same thing...
( And, you can see it in the 'details'. )
For someone to decide that what the Luke account is talking about must be different than what the Matthew and Mark accounts are talking about because "they sound different" is only very bad failed reasoning.
You must begin with the fact that all three accounts are talking about the same thing. ( To deny this is self-deception. ) Sure, one account may include details that the other two leave out - or vice versa. However, the overall "theme" and subject matter is the same. And, Luke 21:20-24 may certainly be associated with Matthew 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-20 -- because, all three are absolutely, most definitely, referring to the same thing...
( And, you can see it in the 'details'.
)