It seems that I have seen this debate on almost every thread I look at. So I thought it would be nice to see if we can not move that whole debate to one place.
However I would love to see this go as orderly as we can get it. I know that won't be an easy thing to do, so I am going to ask that we please keep this down to one passage at a time. One chapter, is find. However as I have seen, folks seem to think that if enough scripture is placed out at one time, then they think they win. That in my mind is just a way to muddy the water. It also seems to be an attempt to to not answer questions that are meant to make a point. Then that seems to be done when the other party seems to have no real answer.
I am going to do my best to use a translation of the Bible I think we can all agree on. The NKJ. As habit I use the NLB, The old English a bit confusing for me, ( am after all Dyslexic) so I thought we should all stay with the same translation, this seems to be a good compromise.
Also I would like to ask that if you can't stop your from hinting at calling others a liar, please don't post, as that is not the way to show Christ living with in you. This is the ground rules folks, if you can live with them, grate. If not then I ask that every one just stop replying to anyone that they see as braking this simple set of rules.
As for me, I grow wiry of such actions, and as has been seen from other post, I will stop replying, until my question is answered. So I wish to start this off, with just one question. I have made this point my self many times in life. It gets one of 2 reactions.
1 no answer at all.
2 A reply that is so full of scripture, that when you read them all, and ten take time to study it out, you may be a week getting back to answer it.
It is this that has prompted the ground rules I have placed. We all seem to serve HaShem, (if my use of Hebrew is a bit over the top for you, please let me know, I will do best to change it for you). That being said, we should all know that he is nothing if not orderly. Being as we are meant to be like Him,
1Co 11:1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.
Lets act so though we are trying to do so. Sorry for the long intro, I just seen no other way to do this.
Now we all know that if we are to bass our side on any one passage, it should be,
Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
I am going to start by asking, how does this passage fit your teachings? I do ask once more that we stay inside this passage, and if one must go outside this book, please make sure any passage you use is with in the context of the passage in question.
I will give my teaching on this to kick off this show.
I understand that this one passage may have been removed from it's true contextual intent for many 100's of years now. So I hope that you will not over look the following. As it seems that the one word fulfill or fulfilled, is the hot part of this passage, do we know what they are, and what the true definition of the Hebrew and Greek words used in the text are? Knowing the true meaning of the words first used, can make a world of difference.
From the Hebrew, we have the word, Strongs number is 4137.
Here we find,
plēroō
1) to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
1a) to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
1a1) I abound, I am liberally supplied
In the Hebrew it is
Mowladah
From 3205, brith
Don't get mad at me, I am only giving you what Strongs said. I myself am not real sure the word given in Hebrew is even a true Hebrew word. Should anyone ask, I will find out for sure. For now this is what Strongs has.
Working with this, we can say that Yeshua came to do one of 2 things. If we look at the Hebrew, we can say He came to give a rebirth of the Law, or that He came to give new birth.
From the greek we an say he came to fill, furnish, or supply.
What we can not say, is that He came to destroy, abolish, or do away with. To say so, one would have to remove most of what He said. As He told us, not to think that way, then backed this by telling us that not one jot or tittle would be removed, until it was all fulfilled. Please not that He said all. Not a part, or as much as we see fit. Also keep in mind that we are on earth now, and so it has not been done away with as yet.
That all comes down to one thing. If this passage means what it is telling us, then the Law has not been removed. Placing the burden on any that wish to remove it, to first remove this passage, or it's meaning. As I have opened the door to a debate that seems to have no end, and f the ground roles are followed, any passages out side of this one should show that the law was removed. Once more, please work this one passage at a time. Unlike many people, I do understand that I am human, and can be wrong. I do hope you understand that it will take a lot of work to show me that I am.
Ok folks let keep it clean, follow the rules, and lets have fun.
May HaShem guide this discussion to His end, and not to an end that pleases man. AMEN
However I would love to see this go as orderly as we can get it. I know that won't be an easy thing to do, so I am going to ask that we please keep this down to one passage at a time. One chapter, is find. However as I have seen, folks seem to think that if enough scripture is placed out at one time, then they think they win. That in my mind is just a way to muddy the water. It also seems to be an attempt to to not answer questions that are meant to make a point. Then that seems to be done when the other party seems to have no real answer.
I am going to do my best to use a translation of the Bible I think we can all agree on. The NKJ. As habit I use the NLB, The old English a bit confusing for me, ( am after all Dyslexic) so I thought we should all stay with the same translation, this seems to be a good compromise.
Also I would like to ask that if you can't stop your from hinting at calling others a liar, please don't post, as that is not the way to show Christ living with in you. This is the ground rules folks, if you can live with them, grate. If not then I ask that every one just stop replying to anyone that they see as braking this simple set of rules.
As for me, I grow wiry of such actions, and as has been seen from other post, I will stop replying, until my question is answered. So I wish to start this off, with just one question. I have made this point my self many times in life. It gets one of 2 reactions.
1 no answer at all.
2 A reply that is so full of scripture, that when you read them all, and ten take time to study it out, you may be a week getting back to answer it.
It is this that has prompted the ground rules I have placed. We all seem to serve HaShem, (if my use of Hebrew is a bit over the top for you, please let me know, I will do best to change it for you). That being said, we should all know that he is nothing if not orderly. Being as we are meant to be like Him,
1Co 11:1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.
Lets act so though we are trying to do so. Sorry for the long intro, I just seen no other way to do this.
Now we all know that if we are to bass our side on any one passage, it should be,
Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
I am going to start by asking, how does this passage fit your teachings? I do ask once more that we stay inside this passage, and if one must go outside this book, please make sure any passage you use is with in the context of the passage in question.
I will give my teaching on this to kick off this show.
I understand that this one passage may have been removed from it's true contextual intent for many 100's of years now. So I hope that you will not over look the following. As it seems that the one word fulfill or fulfilled, is the hot part of this passage, do we know what they are, and what the true definition of the Hebrew and Greek words used in the text are? Knowing the true meaning of the words first used, can make a world of difference.
From the Hebrew, we have the word, Strongs number is 4137.
Here we find,
plēroō
1) to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
1a) to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
1a1) I abound, I am liberally supplied
In the Hebrew it is
Mowladah
From 3205, brith
Don't get mad at me, I am only giving you what Strongs said. I myself am not real sure the word given in Hebrew is even a true Hebrew word. Should anyone ask, I will find out for sure. For now this is what Strongs has.
Working with this, we can say that Yeshua came to do one of 2 things. If we look at the Hebrew, we can say He came to give a rebirth of the Law, or that He came to give new birth.
From the greek we an say he came to fill, furnish, or supply.
What we can not say, is that He came to destroy, abolish, or do away with. To say so, one would have to remove most of what He said. As He told us, not to think that way, then backed this by telling us that not one jot or tittle would be removed, until it was all fulfilled. Please not that He said all. Not a part, or as much as we see fit. Also keep in mind that we are on earth now, and so it has not been done away with as yet.
That all comes down to one thing. If this passage means what it is telling us, then the Law has not been removed. Placing the burden on any that wish to remove it, to first remove this passage, or it's meaning. As I have opened the door to a debate that seems to have no end, and f the ground roles are followed, any passages out side of this one should show that the law was removed. Once more, please work this one passage at a time. Unlike many people, I do understand that I am human, and can be wrong. I do hope you understand that it will take a lot of work to show me that I am.
Ok folks let keep it clean, follow the rules, and lets have fun.
May HaShem guide this discussion to His end, and not to an end that pleases man. AMEN
