The truth behind the Law

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miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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#21
Not all are under CHRIST which is why the law will not pass until all has been accomplished
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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#22
Here is a great article that speaks about Matt. 5:17-18 for those interested.

Matthew 5:17-19 and the "Law"

Do Jesus’ words in Matthew 5:17-19 tell Christians they must keep the seventh-day Sabbath? Some people believe these verses make Sabbath-keeping binding on Christians. Others conclude the Sabbath is not in view in this passage. To discover the answer, let us begin by quoting the verses in question:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."


We see right away that Jesus did not mention the Sabbath or the Ten Commandments in these verses. To read Jesus’ statement as having these laws specifically in mind is to bring in ideas that were not stated by Jesus.


To remove any part of the Law is a sin, and there for Yeshua would be wrong to remove any part. I have seen many times that people wish to set one set of Laws a side, yet hold on to other parts. This simply can not be done and then say GIVE Tithes, or don't use drugs. They are not a part of the 10 C, so they should removed as well. Yet the people that follow teh idea of the Law being removed, hold fast to the parts they like. Why?


Nonetheless, there are certain phrases in this text that need further study: Jesus’ assertion that he did not come to abolish the Law; that he came to fulfill it; that not the smallest part of the Law would disappear till everything was accomplished; that whoever broke the commandments he was speaking about or taught others to break them would be of little reputation in the kingdom.

What do all these things mean in terms of the Sabbath? By looking closely at the key phrases in this Scripture, we will learn some surprising things.
"Abolish Law and Prophets"


First, we see that Jesus spoke of "the Law and the Prophets" as not being abolished. What did he mean by this phrase? The "Law and the Prophets" was a regular expression Jews of Jesus’ day used to refer to the entire Old Testament. (See Matthew 7:12; 22:40; Acts 24:14; 28:23; Romans 3:21.) The Old Testament comprises the Holy Scriptures or the sacred writings of the Jewish faith. It was through these writings that Jews thought they could understand the will of God and have eternal life (John 5:39, 45).


What Jesus said, then, was the Old Testament as a body of "God-breathed" literature would not be set aside or abolished. His concern was not specifically the Sabbath or the Ten Commandments. It was the entire Old Testament.


Goes back to what I asked above.

"To fulfill them"

Jesus also said he came not to abolish the Law or the Prophets, that is, the Holy Scriptures, but to "fulfill them" (Matthew 5:17). We should notice that Jesus did not tell Christians to "fulfill" these Scriptures down to the smallest letter and least stroke of a pen. He said he came to fulfill the Holy Scriptures.

What did he mean by this? The Greek word for "fulfill" isplerosai. According to Greek scholars, the nuance and meaning of this word is difficult to express in English, and several possibilities have been offered. These are summarized by four options:


  1. Jesus came to accomplish or obey the Holy Scriptures,
  2. to bring out the full meaning of the Holy Scriptures,
  3. to bring those Scriptures to their intended completion,
  4. to emphasize that the Scriptures point to him as Messiah and are fulfilled in his salvation work.

After reviewing several ways of looking at the word "fulfill," the Expositor’s Commentary on Matthew concluded by saying: "The best interpretation of these difficult verses says that Jesus fulfills the Law and the Prophets in that they point to him, and he is their fulfillment.

Unquote:

The rest of the article is in the link below. Enjoy and walk free in Christ as you depend on what He has already done in His finished work on the cross and resurrection.

https://www.gci.org/bible/matthew517
Even though you give this definition, Strongs, (not the best I know) as well as Brown give a different meaning. So on that we are going to say ok, and agree to disagree. Sorry, I have seen nothing to sway my thinking as yet. Besides, I still left with the understanding that with Law being removed, or abolished, there is no sin in the world, as I posted already, Rom. 5:13 and
1Jo. 3:4. I know this was not an easy thing to agree on, yet we can learn much in it's study. Though I have seen compelling statements, I have yet to see any that tells us, how Mat. 5:17-18 has changed anything.
As for looking to Paul, is it not Paul that said he didn't teach contrary to the Law? Ok it was said just like that, however in Acts, 21 we do find that this thought is being given. So for us to true around and say he has, would be placing his teaching under some rather questionable scrutiny, would it not?
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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#23
We don't need to live by the moral code in the law of Moses which says in Lev. 18:23 to not have sex with a animal. The law of Christ Himself , the law of love, the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus will stop this.

People often say to those that speak of the grace of God and that they are not under the law of Moses including the 10 commandments anymore that they believe they are without "laws" now.

We do have laws in the New Covenant.

They are exciting laws that bring life and wholeness to us all - because these are all Christ Himself in us.
Jesus fulfilled the law.

The law was a mere shadow of the real thing which was Jesus.

Read the law to see Jesus in it and to know that Jesus did that for us and His life in us now leads us in all things. Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.

We now live by:

1) The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. ( Romans 8:2 )

2) The law of love ( Romans 13:10 James 2:8 )

3) The law of faith ( Romans 3:27 and the law of Moses is NOT of faith - Gal. 3:12 )

4) The law of liberty in Christ Jesus ( James 1:25 )

5) The law of Christ - which is Christ Himself in us. ( Gal. 6:2 )

We can trust the Holy Spirit and the life of Christ Himself in us to lead us in all affairs of life. We don't go back to the law of Moses that were a shadow of the real thing which is Christ in us..
Jesus is more then enough.

Yes...we glory in the laws that we have in the New Covenant because they are all Christ Himself living in and through us. ( Gal.2:20 and Col. 3:3 )

Get this wrong and we create a religion which really nullifies the grace of God from operating in our lives like it was meant to.


Galatians 5:22-23 (NASB)

[SUP]22 [/SUP]
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

[SUP]23 [/SUP]
gentleness, self-control; against such things
there is no law.
There are 1050 Laws in the New testament. 613 in the Old.
When one looks at what is in the OT, they are repeated, hinted at, or refereed to in the NT. I once removed every word from the NT that, repeated, hinted at, or refereed to the OT. I came up with only one passage left. Jesus Wept.
That in fact made sense in my mind, as they only had the OT to teach from. Now I can't speak for any one other than myself. Yet to find that, and understand they had only the OT. If I was to find teaching that went contrary to the only scripture they had to teach from, then I would have to think something was wrong. That would, (as we know) have to my thinking. Can you see why this topic is dear to my heart now?
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#24
Morning RainRider,

Soooo .... what is your stand regarding the keeping of the law?
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,536
87
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#25
Not all are under CHRIST which is why the law will not pass until all has been accomplished
Now that is something I can understand. Logic, placed with true scripture works every time for me.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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#26
HE didn't remove the LAW
HE magnified it and made it honorable
Based in love and accountability to GOD and one another
(based on the right inward prompting of THE SPIRIT (of the law)
 
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miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
591
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#27
Not all know how to rightly handle the (written outward) LAW because not all are rightly under and in CHRIST
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,376
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#28
HE didn't remove the LAW
HE magnified it and made it honorable
Based in love and accountability to GOD and one another
(based on the right inward prompting of THE SPIRIT (of the law)
Really? Jesus magnified something that mankind is unable to keep?

Have you never read "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law."

Jesus did exactly what He said He did, He came to fulfill the Law i.e to satisfy its requirements because mankind was unable to. If you put yourself under the Law, then you are obligated to fulfill the whole Law. And if you break it in one place, you break the whole thing and are guilty.

"
Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

I'm always amazed at those who don't understand how they are saved.

The Law has been fulfilled on our behalf. To live under after Jesus freed us from it, is to dishonor Christ.

 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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#29
Morning RainRider,

Soooo .... what is your stand regarding the keeping of the law?
Thats an easy one. I won't place any scripture here, as it would take way to long. The list would be close to the whole of the Torah.
HaShem in his wisdom, gave us a set of laws to live by. He also placed the laws in an orderly fashion for us. He took the time to divide them into both life stills, and peoples. (That is an over simplification,sorry) It is on us to study them out, seek out laws are meant for what Peoples, and so on. The laws that are for all Peoples, would be the ones that we should follow.
I know I heard it many times, "They were all give only to the Jewish people." That however is not true. When I hear this I simply know in my hear that someone needs to take a class on Biblical Law. You see there are Laws that were given long before there were any Hebrew people. That is what we must know, follow, and live by. After all IN Rev. as I pointed out, are we not told that saints keep the law, and the faith .
I am always left with the idea that for a person to say they follow Torah, others think, "they keep the sacrifices, oh my they are going to burn in Hell." I find that thinking sad, and Yes I have bee told that. Even though even the Hebrew People were told HaShem didn't want that from them. That comes from the OT.
I know this is way short, of everything that went through my mind, yet it does kind of answer your question in full.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
591
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#30


Really? Jesus magnified something that mankind is unable to keep?

Have you never read "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law."

Jesus did exactly what He said He did, He came to fulfill the Law i.e to satisfy its requirements because mankind was unable to. If you put yourself under the Law, then you are obligated to fulfill the whole Law. And if you break it in one place, you break the whole thing and are guilty.

"
Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

I'm always amazed at those who don't understand how they are saved.

The Law has been fulfilled on our behalf. To live under after Jesus freed us from it, is to dishonor Christ.

Yes HE magnified the LAW and made it honorable

those aren't my words sir
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,536
87
48
#31
HE didn't remove the LAW
HE magnified it and made it honorable
Based in love and accountability to GOD and one another
(based on the right inward prompting of THE SPIRIT (of the law)
I understand you to mean that He gave a clear understanding of it. I can agree with that yes. As is well seen, He showed us that Rabbinic law was sinful, and it is not the letter of the law we are to try to live up to, rather it is the Spirit of the law. Just as it has always been.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,376
113
#32
Thats an easy one. I won't place any scripture here, as it would take way to long. The list would be close to the whole of the Torah.
HaShem in his wisdom, gave us a set of laws to live by. He also placed the laws in an orderly fashion for us. He took the time to divide them into both life stills, and peoples. (That is an over simplification,sorry) It is on us to study them out, seek out laws are meant for what Peoples, and so on. The laws that are for all Peoples, would be the ones that we should follow.
I know I heard it many times, "They were all give only to the Jewish people." That however is not true. When I hear this I simply know in my hear that someone needs to take a class on Biblical Law. You see there are Laws that were given long before there were any Hebrew people. That is what we must know, follow, and live by. After all IN Rev. as I pointed out, are we not told that saints keep the law, and the faith .
I am always left with the idea that for a person to say they follow Torah, others think, "they keep the sacrifices, oh my they are going to burn in Hell." I find that thinking sad, and Yes I have bee told that. Even though even the Hebrew People were told HaShem didn't want that from them. That comes from the OT.
I know this is way short, of everything that went through my mind, yet it does kind of answer your question in full.
I can make it simpler: Are you attempting to obtain salvation by live according to the Law or are you saved by grace through faith?
 
Jun 21, 2017
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#33
I feel those passages fit into my teachings in the following ways. One, that Jesus as you call him HaShem, has come to teach me or us, whatever have you, that it is possible to live up too God's word and obey him. Two, that until we truly obey him or learn how to truly obey him, none of his laws will every be erased. Obviously, I know I'm not Jesus and will never come close to being him, but if he was able to live without sex, alcohol, drugs, what have you. Stands no reason the rest of us shouldn't be able to do the same. That's how I personally look at it.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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#34
I understand you to mean that He gave a clear understanding of it. I can agree with that yes. As is well seen, He showed us that Rabbinic law was sinful, and it is not the letter of the law we are to try to live up to, rather it is the Spirit of the law. Just as it has always been.
HE said unless your righteousness exceed that of the Pharisees you will in no wise enter the kingdom of GOD

Its awesome what GOD has done because tell me a man who will profess himself apart from CHRIST and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS and I will show you a man who is a fool and doesn't understand the magnitude of what GOD has done for us in HIS SON

Provided we remain IN HIM and do not "go out" from HIM
 
Jun 21, 2017
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#35
I can make it simpler: Are you attempting to obtain salvation by live according to the Law or are you saved by grace through faith?
Shouldn't I be both. Trying to do what God's says and be saved through the faith I have in him???
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
591
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#36
I feel those passages fit into my teachings in the following ways. One, that Jesus as you call him HaShem, has come to teach me or us, whatever have you, that it is possible to live up too God's word and obey him. Two, that until we truly obey him or learn how to truly obey him, none of his laws will every be erased. Obviously, I know I'm not Jesus and will never come close to being him, but if he was able to live without sex, alcohol, drugs, what have you. Stands no reason the rest of us shouldn't be able to do the same. That's how I personally look at it.
HE died for us because there was no other way but by through and in HIM to be reconciled back to GOD and it's through faith in HIS sanctifying work that we live and follow and obey HIM by HIS LIFE and LEADING SPIRIT
 
Jun 21, 2017
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#37


[/COLOR]I'm always amazed at those who don't understand how they are saved.


[/FONT]

My understanding of it, is that I have received God/Jesus in my mind,heart,and soul. And have asked him to show me how to live through his eyes. And I'm saved because one I have repented, and I have faith and believe that he is indeed going to show me the way. But if this is incorrect, please enlighten me on the correct way.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
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#38
Your name....perfectly imperfect is beautiful and speaks THE TRUTH
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
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#39
HE's the ONE who makes men whole and holy
 
Jun 21, 2017
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#40
HE died for us because there was no other way but by through and in HIM to be reconciled back to GOD and it's through faith in HIS sanctifying work that we live and follow and obey HIM by HIS LIFE and LEADING SPIRIT
Yes I know, that's why I feel we should also have no troubles listening to a man, that honored his father by dying for my sins. I sometimes wonder, why have I ever been so easily influenced by people, especially people I know for a fact would not get up on a cross and be crucified for me. But thankfully because I know Jesus did, it gets easier and easier for me to personally just do what God tells me.