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Sorry, you've been deceived.
Those scriptures do NOT legitimize sin.
That person is still committing sin, and is the opposite of those who walk in the light and have had ALL their sins washed away.
You can't say we can't be totally clean after quoting a verse that says we CAN be totally cleansed.
You got a better word than "justify"?
By denying we can be sin free, you necessitate more sin.
Does that sound like something God would want done?
We can be sin free, and it starts with a true "turn from" sin.
Those scriptures do NOT legitimize sin.
That person is still committing sin, and is the opposite of those who walk in the light and have had ALL their sins washed away.
You can't say we can't be totally clean after quoting a verse that says we CAN be totally cleansed.
You got a better word than "justify"?
By denying we can be sin free, you necessitate more sin.
Does that sound like something God would want done?
We can be sin free, and it starts with a true "turn from" sin.
Show me the word "positional" in the bible.
God deals with the "actual", and sinners have no covering.
It is written..."[FONT="]The way of the wicked is as darkness:" (Pro 4:19)[/FONT]
Darkness is sin.
Sinners cannot have fellowship with God, as He is sinless.
Sinners have yet to turn from darkness or satan.
But you consider them righteous?
No communion.
They are totally distinct.
No darkness is in the light
Why do you keep trying to blend them?
Be a sinner, or be a non-sinner; but don't think for a minute that sinners have fellowship with God.
Those in darkness are NOT in the light...which 1 John 1:5 makes clear is God.
"The way of the wicked is as darkness:"
The wicked are sinners, right?
Perfect scripture for MY POV.
Sinners are connected to the devil.
And baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of past sins is also how we can enter into Christ's death, burial, and resurrection; killing the old man of flesh and being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
Reborn of Godly seed that cannot bring forth evil fruit.
Those crucified and raised with Christ are new creatures...and enabled to resist all temptation.
Thanks be to God in the name of Jesus Christ!
Thank God for water baptism!
The first few verses of Ro 7 clearly show that it is speaking of a former time. Verse 5..."For when we WERE in the flesh..."
The entire middle of Ro 7 is about Paul's former life as a Pharisee; trying to live the Mosaic Law, but failing. And again, a reference to the past in verse 18; (that is, in my flesh).
And the end, especially verse 23; "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to THE LAW OF SIN which is in my members."...points again to a former time. Because....
we read in Romans 8:2...."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from THE LAW OF SIN and death.
Why would Paul be subject to something he is free of?
If you could see the truth of Ro 7, and its proximity to Ro 6, which speaks of baptism and the death of the flesh, you would see that Paul is making the past-present transition, and Ro 8 continues on into the life walked in the Spirit.
It is possible to walk without sinning, as it is written..."[FONT="]There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
You just gotta look for the escapes God has provided.[/FONT]
The entire middle of Ro 7 is about Paul's former life as a Pharisee; trying to live the Mosaic Law, but failing. And again, a reference to the past in verse 18; (that is, in my flesh).
And the end, especially verse 23; "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to THE LAW OF SIN which is in my members."...points again to a former time. Because....
we read in Romans 8:2...."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from THE LAW OF SIN and death.
Why would Paul be subject to something he is free of?
If you could see the truth of Ro 7, and its proximity to Ro 6, which speaks of baptism and the death of the flesh, you would see that Paul is making the past-present transition, and Ro 8 continues on into the life walked in the Spirit.
It is possible to walk without sinning, as it is written..."[FONT="]There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
You just gotta look for the escapes God has provided.[/FONT]
I've said all I want to say on this.... it's impossible to have a true conversation with someone who only hears what he wants to hear, then accuses his counterpart of saying things he never said.
Keep on living your totally sinless life. I'll keep living my life as a sinner who is covered by the blood of Christ. The same way the apostle Paul did. The same way the apostle Peter did. I could go on, but you'd simply misconstrue it and accuse me of wanting to sin.
I won't keep playing that game with you.
Keep on living your totally sinless life. I'll keep living my life as a sinner who is covered by the blood of Christ. The same way the apostle Paul did. The same way the apostle Peter did. I could go on, but you'd simply misconstrue it and accuse me of wanting to sin.
I won't keep playing that game with you.
ROM.7:23 Paul speaking, (Verse 23)But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. (If sin is not present what was he warring against?)
24. O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (Rhetorical question emphasizing his personal struggle with sin.)
25. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Here we have Paul clearly identifying the two natures that exist within a Christian, the law of God, and the law of sin.
We can walk after the spirit, if that spirit dwells in us but we will also have to contend with the flesh which will tempt us daily. Unless you can honestly say that you are never tempted, and never succumbs to those temptations, you cannot say that you are without sin. Now, are saying that you never fall into temptation and commit a sin. That could be something like an impure thought, or speeding, or what about impure dreams, how would you control that ? You see, its not what you do, its what Christ has done for you. Justification is a legal term, when you stand before the court of God, it wont matter what you have done, your righteousness are as filthy rags in the eyes of God. You cant do enough good to warrant salvation, otherwise God would not have had to send His only Son to pay the price of sin. When you stand before God you need to be clothed in the blood of Jesus and if you try to add any filthy works to that you will be found wanting.
Remember, your righteousness,( working trying to be sinless, trying to obey commandments, trying to hold out faithful, getting baptized, joining church ect... all these things are things that you do to be obedient not obtain salvation. YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS ARE AS FILTHY RAGS TO GOD WHEN ADDED TO SALVATION
Well said hornetguy! We are just wasting our time beating a dead horse. Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolutely perfect 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus did) are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness (1 John 1:8-10). It's impossible to reason with such delusional people. 
You ignore what I stated. Also washing of the feet was a ritual performed by the host of the person having a person as a guest. Since most people walked distances in sandals this ritual was cleansing, restful, and showing respect. A basin of water was used and the foot placed in it with a wash cloth helping cleanse the foot with another cloth to dry the foot. The more wealthy had servants do this. Jesus performing this ritual demonstrated that he was the servant for us. His later action of allowing himself to suffer the execution of the cross. Romans used the cross as a brutal painful method of execution.
What is so hard to understand that the symbolism of washing the feet is more in keeping with baptism than the word for immersion with the example of a sinking ship. You seem to be either obtuse about this or hung up on immersion concept. I've been down this path before. Normally those clinging to your version want to use it to enforce immersion. Washing feet doesn't preclude immersion. John the Baptist used immersion in the Jordan River. However there are places where immersion is almost impossible to be done.
What is so hard to understand that the symbolism of washing the feet is more in keeping with baptism than the word for immersion with the example of a sinking ship. You seem to be either obtuse about this or hung up on immersion concept. I've been down this path before. Normally those clinging to your version want to use it to enforce immersion. Washing feet doesn't preclude immersion. John the Baptist used immersion in the Jordan River. However there are places where immersion is almost impossible to be done.
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Well said hornetguy! We are just wasting our time beating a dead horse. Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolutely perfect 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus did) are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness (1 John 1:8-10). It's impossible to reason with such delusional people.
Explain the following statement by Paul.
Romans 7:18–19 (NIV)
18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.
Romans 7:18–19 (NIV)
18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.
Since you said the early verses of chapter 7 have Paul speaking about a former time I am posting the entire chapter so you can demonstrate that you are talking about. I personally don't see it. The last line speaks volumes!
Romans 7New International Version (NIV)
Released From the Law, Bound to Christ
7 Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3 So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.
4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
The Law and Sin
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Romans 7New International Version (NIV)
Released From the Law, Bound to Christ
7 Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3 So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.
4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
The Law and Sin
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
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Umm… the only problem with the washing of the feet does not portray/pictures/signifies the death, burial and resurrection. Yea immersion is incomplete; it only portrays the death but never a resurrection which completed the overall mission of our Lord. Resurrection is important for if Christ did not rise from the dead, our faith is in vain and we are yet in our sins. Immersion is only a part of baptism yet the method of immersing, dipping and rising are scripturally demonstrated picturing the gospel or what Christ did.
When Philip preach about Jesus to the eunuch and the eunuch believed, they were both came into the water, then the eunuch was baptized and both came out of the water (Acts 8:35-40). This simply could not be washing of the feet because there was much water. Washing of feet can be done through basin as cleansing of the foot. This cleansing is rather a picture of being a servant and not salvation.
God bless
When Philip preach about Jesus to the eunuch and the eunuch believed, they were both came into the water, then the eunuch was baptized and both came out of the water (Acts 8:35-40). This simply could not be washing of the feet because there was much water. Washing of feet can be done through basin as cleansing of the foot. This cleansing is rather a picture of being a servant and not salvation.
God bless
If you didn't "want to keep on sinning" you would rejoice at the news of an alternative life style without sin.
Peter wrote..."[FONT="]Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
"Ceased from sin" is available to you.[/FONT]
Peter wrote..."[FONT="]Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
"Ceased from sin" is available to you.[/FONT]
Sin was present in his old life under the law, (the perspective from which he was writing),but not after being freed from it by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
Those "members" were crucified. buried, and raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
Reborn of Godly seed that cannot bring forth evil fruit.
Again written from the perspective of the law following Jew in his past.
Paul is writing using the present narrative tense. He is walking us through his previous life from the perspective of still being there.
Ever described a past event from the present POV?
I played ball in school, and often describe past games as though I were still there.
As Paul has described in Romans 6 the death of the fleshly old man and its body of sin, Paul is differentiating between covenants.
Old...flesh, new...mind.
Ever fasted?
It is the mind that rules the new man in Christ, as the old man-flesh has been crucified.It is the perfect example of denying the flesh by the power of the mind.
You come from a different religion than I do.
I have only one nature, and it is from God.
The Lord has given me, and all other men, the opportunity to kill the old man and to be reborn of His seed.
It has God's nature...only.
Jesus said the truth would free you from service to sin, and since we can only serve one master, the non-sinner is enabled by God to serve only God.
Those "members" were crucified. buried, and raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
Reborn of Godly seed that cannot bring forth evil fruit.
Again written from the perspective of the law following Jew in his past.
Paul is writing using the present narrative tense. He is walking us through his previous life from the perspective of still being there.
Ever described a past event from the present POV?
I played ball in school, and often describe past games as though I were still there.
As Paul has described in Romans 6 the death of the fleshly old man and its body of sin, Paul is differentiating between covenants.
Old...flesh, new...mind.
Ever fasted?
It is the mind that rules the new man in Christ, as the old man-flesh has been crucified.It is the perfect example of denying the flesh by the power of the mind.
You come from a different religion than I do.
I have only one nature, and it is from God.
The Lord has given me, and all other men, the opportunity to kill the old man and to be reborn of His seed.
It has God's nature...only.
Jesus said the truth would free you from service to sin, and since we can only serve one master, the non-sinner is enabled by God to serve only God.
Paul is using the present narrative tense here.
He is describing his former self under the law.
Paul later writes..."[FONT="]Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
Does that sound like it is coming from someone who is still living in sin?[/FONT]
He is describing his former self under the law.
Paul later writes..."[FONT="]Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
Does that sound like it is coming from someone who is still living in sin?[/FONT]
I don't have religion, I have Jesus Christ, religion sends people to hell! Where on earth do you get this idea that Paul is talking about some previous experience, this is just your opinion to twist plain scripture and try to make it say something it does not. You have been consistently contextually erroneous, you contort Paul's plain teachings and try to mold it to fit your heretical beliefs, you have no credibility whatsoever concerning your innuendo. NO one, absolutely no one would sit down and read Rom. 6,7,and 8 and come away with the fairy tale you are espousing. Only a COC can take scripture and mutilate it the way you have. Your way to heaven relies heavily on your works, all will be burned up and YOU, will be found wanting. Again, Your righteousness are as filthy rags in the eyes of God. Rom. 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of man, unto whom God imputith righteousness without works
When he writes..."[FONT="]For when we were in the flesh," intimating a former time. (Rom 7:5)[/FONT]
Everyone is entitled to there own opinion.
You believe that life without sin is a false doctrine.
I believe that Jesus came and successfully freed us from the power of satan and his temptations, thus freeing us from sin.
I praise the all powerful God for making it happen, and I guess you praise something that allows you to continue in sin.
I exhort you to realize the freedom in Christ.
Everyone is entitled to there own opinion.
You believe that life without sin is a false doctrine.
I believe that Jesus came and successfully freed us from the power of satan and his temptations, thus freeing us from sin.
I praise the all powerful God for making it happen, and I guess you praise something that allows you to continue in sin.
I exhort you to realize the freedom in Christ.
Out of curiosity, and for clarification to the rest of us sinners....
Are you saying that you, as a believer, NEVER physically or spiritually do anything at all that is a sin?
You never lie, even accidentally, you never judge, you never think harsh thoughts about someone, you never misjudge a brother or sister, you don't ever have any impure thoughts, you don't suffer from pride..... You, in your physical body never do anything that is a sin?
Is that what you are saying?
Are you saying that you, as a believer, NEVER physically or spiritually do anything at all that is a sin?
You never lie, even accidentally, you never judge, you never think harsh thoughts about someone, you never misjudge a brother or sister, you don't ever have any impure thoughts, you don't suffer from pride..... You, in your physical body never do anything that is a sin?
Is that what you are saying?