1st Death (physical death), 2nd death (spiritual death) - which death did Jesus die and became victorious over?

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#21
Having the keys to hades means He went all the way IMO.
He preached to the spirits imprisoned there. He wasn't dead in the sense of spiritually having no life: He is Life Itself redeeming souls from death.

((IMO))

there's obviously some lack of vocabulary we humans have to speak about such things. it's kind of like trying to talk about eternity while being locked in temporal conversation and only having temporal language. He is the Light of Life, and He's entering death -- put a candle in a dark room, and which overcomes the other, darkness or light? that's kind of the situation here, as i see it
 
Jun 10, 2019
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#22
He preached to the spirits imprisoned there. He wasn't dead: He was Life Itself redeeming souls from death.

((IMO))

there's obviously some lack of vocabulary we humans have to speak about such things. it's kind of like trying to talk about eternity while being locked in temporal conversation and only having temporal language. He is the Light of Life, and He's entering death -- put a candle in a dark room, and which overcomes the other, darkness or light? that's kind of the situation here, as i see it
like Daniel in the lions den
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#23
put a candle in a dark room, and which overcomes the other, darkness or light? that's kind of the situation here, as i see it
yes, He entered every deepest darkness.
yes, He illuminated it all!


no one takes His life from Him, but He has power to lay it down and to take it up again. how does the dead take up His own life again? by the power of an indestructible life.
 
Jun 10, 2019
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#24
Psalm 139
6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, too lofty for me to attain.

7Where can I go to escape Your Spirit? Where can I flee from Your presence?

8If I ascend to the heavens, You are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, You are there.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#25
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
He is satisfied. is that a comment about an eternally dead person or one who yet lives?


AN00084380_001_l.jpg

for He bore the iniquities of many, justifying them - not crushed by their weight, but able to uphold us

the door to Gaza is open
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#26
And that simply means that in spite of all His intense sufferings Christ did not complain, scream, plead for mercy, or speak evil. It seems nonsense only to those who have failed to plumb the depths of what Isaiah prophesied.
oh, do the eternally dead speak?
or are we talking about His torture? when we say "
affliction" ?


Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
6031: anah
abase self, defile
A primitive root (possibly rather ident. With anah through the idea of looking down or browbeating); to depress literally or figuratively, transitive or intransitive (in various applications, as follows) -- abase self, afflict(-ion, self), answer (by mistake for anah), chasten self, deal hardly with, defile, exercise, force, gentleness, humble (self), hurt, ravish, sing (by mistake for anah), speak (by mistake for anah), submit self, weaken, X in any wise.
besides this, Isaiah 53:4 carries the implication that we are wrong: he took up our pain and bore our griefs - "yet we considered Him" afflicted by God. He is God and He is voluntarily picking up and bearing our sin, for our sake. He's not being unjustly condemned: He's not to be pitied, but glorified. we thought He was being punished, but He was saving us! we thought God was condemning the innocent, but it was God taking up the cause of the oppressed in order to show mercy to the guilty!
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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#27
He preached to the spirits imprisoned there. He wasn't dead in the sense of spiritually having no life: He is Life Itself redeeming souls from death.

((IMO))

there's obviously some lack of vocabulary we humans have to speak about such things. it's kind of like trying to talk about eternity while being locked in temporal conversation and only having temporal language. He is the Light of Life, and He's entering death -- put a candle in a dark room, and which overcomes the other, darkness or light? that's kind of the situation here, as i see it
He 'overcame' the spiritual death - means that He had to face it to overcome it.
When we say He tasted both deaths we don't mean He was eternally damned in hell but He had to go the full length to pay our debt.

Heb 2:9But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Q. Does everyone here include even unbelievers who will spend eternity in their spiritual death?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#28
When we say He tasted both deaths we don't mean He was eternally damned in hell but He had to go the full length to pay our debt.
if the second death is eternal damnation and someone wasn't eternally damned how can we say they went the full length in eternal damnation?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#29
Q. Does everyone here include even unbelievers who will spend eternity in their spiritual death?
Q: what death is Hebrews 2:9 referring to?

;)
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
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#30
Another way of looking at the OP question is to ask oneself, is there a passage in the Bible that expressly states, Jesus died the second death?
No.

" Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. " The Book of Revelation chapter 20 verses 11 through 15
 

DB7

Junior Member
Dec 29, 2014
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#31
the rich man and Lazarus account neither seem to have gone through a spiritual death rather one was at Abraham side and the other being tormented
I don't know JamOn, that story is clearly an allegory, people should not regard those logistics as facts. There will be no communication and sight between the two realms of eternity. The rich man will not be reprieved by one dipping water on his tongue, as his torment is mental/spiritual. One's arm cannot reach over the chasm to offer water to the dead, nor will the living hear the screams and constant anguish of the dead, etc...You should not take that parobole as being factual or as a true delineation of heaven. Firstly, the context is extremely implicit (it's actually about the incumbency and non-excusability of accepting salvation, no second chances) , and secondly, the logistics are much too hypothetical to consider realistic.

I don't believe that that pericope has any pertinence to the topic at hand, it's completely fabricated..
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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#33
if the second death is eternal damnation and someone wasn't eternally damned how can we say they went the full length in eternal damnation?
He did not go the full length of eternal damnation but overcame eternal death and thus what it means resurrection. The full length of eternal damnation comes after He (Jesus) judges because He has been given authority to judge.

To fulfill the saying "death has been swallowed up in victory". Death can not be swallowed in victory if Jesus only overcame the first part of death (physical death) because death is about the second death more than the first.

I think most people are confusing the terms. Eternal damnation in hell fire as described in Rev 20 is part of the spiritual death confirmation because at this point, Jesus judges those that are already dead spiritually. It doesn't mean that before that they had some hope of being rescued, it is just a confirmation and perhaps they will understand why they are being judged. But even before they face that judgement, we can say they were spiritually dead as soon as they passed through the first death because nothing will change.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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Australia
#34
He preached to the spirits imprisoned there. He wasn't dead in the sense of spiritually having no life: He is Life Itself redeeming souls from death.
((IMO))
there's obviously some lack of vocabulary we humans have to speak about such things. it's kind of like trying to talk about eternity while being locked in temporal conversation and only having temporal language. He is the Light of Life, and He's entering death -- put a candle in a dark room, and which overcomes the other, darkness or light? that's kind of the situation here, as i see it
Yes there is some things we will not comprehend in this state. we shouldn't make presumptions like your first statement. If you give verses, to back yourself it would be different.
"The state of the dead" is a big topic and i can see the different directions it leads people. I know what the bible states in regard to our state at death. and i know that the immortal soul doctrines are from Satan. Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Because Jesus took our sins on himself He was able to die. Death is the result of sin. He never sinned but suffered the results of our sins. Sin also causes separation between God and the sinner.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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#35
Adam and Eve were perfect with no fear of death.
Sin entered which results in eternal death.
Jesus paid debt in full.
So Jesus must have paid for the death that sin causes.

If sin only causes a physical death but allows our spirits to live for ever, we are spiritually immortal and Satan was right.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
It doesn't say "For the wages of sin is eternal life in the spirit;"
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#36
If sin only causes a physical death but allows our spirits to live for ever, we are spiritually immortal and Satan was right.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
what if existence is forever, and can either be eternal existence in death or existence in life?
then Satan's lie is mischaracterizing the mere fact of continued existence as 'life'