2 Paradoxes in the Bible and a Question

Bjorn_Gelotte · Oct 16, 2012

1. If he who is last shall be first......Then because he's first does he go back to being last. I believe he who is last on earth and dies last will be first in heaven.
2. If Jesus said I have come to save the unrighteous and not the righteous, does that mean semantically he is saying the Pharisees are righteous. There are really 2 groups here...The bad off and the worse off. There really is no righteous..no not one. Though his wording makes it seem as if hes calling the Pharisees Holy and Righteous and those who he hung out with the ones who needed a Doctor.
3. Finally-In Prophecies such as Daniel and Ezekiel...there are Beasts referenced based on the technology of their weapons and armor. Rome was Iron, Greece was Bronze I believe etc... Mede-Persian, Assyrian, Babylonian Beasts all had their demarcation by the alloy/metal they used for armor and weaponry.
How could the prophets recognize what iron, bronze and other technology that was 1000s of years away was?
Here are some verses-
Daniel 7:7 “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns
Ezekiel 4:3 "Then get yourself an iron plate and set it up as an iron wall between you and the city, and set your face toward it so that it is under siege, and besiege, * it. This is a sign to the house of Israel.
Maybe I'm ignorant. Was the technology of the Romans around during the Babylonian Captivity... I.E. ''Iron'''?

kenisyes · Oct 16, 2012

I think you mean the first two as non-serious brain-teaser, but I have a serious comment on the third.
1. The last in the eyes of the world will be first in the eyes of heaven and vice-versa.
2. No paradox. Jesus came to save the unrighteous. We are all unrighteous. Jesus came to save us all. Jesus died for the Pharisees too, if they would give Him a chance to help them.
3. In ancient times it was called metaphysics. People studied what could be. It's the same was DaVinci invented the helicopter; he imagined what we would want. This explains some of the shapes in Revelation. Iron is a naturally occurring element and it has always been around. We invented steel. A quick websearch brought up claims it was used in 7000BC (older than many of us think the earth is) for household utensils.

Dude653 · Oct 16, 2012

The guy who's first in line has to hold the door for everyone else

Abiding · Oct 16, 2012

Bjorn_Gelotte said:

1. If he who is last shall be first......Then because he's first does he go back to being last. I believe he who is last on earth and dies last will be first in heaven.
2. If Jesus said I have come to save the unrighteous and not the righteous, does that mean semantically he is saying the Pharisees are righteous. There are really 2 groups here...The bad off and the worse off. There really is no righteous..no not one. Though his wording makes it seem as if hes calling the Pharisees Holy and Righteous and those who he hung out with the ones who needed a Doctor.
3. Finally-In Prophecies such as Daniel and Ezekiel...there are Beasts referenced based on the technology of their weapons and armor. Rome was Iron, Greece was Bronze I believe etc... Mede-Persian, Assyrian, Babylonian Beasts all had their demarcation by the alloy/metal they used for armor and weaponry.
How could the prophets recognize what iron, bronze and other technology that was 1000s of years away was?
Here are some verses-
Daniel 7:7 “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns
Ezekiel 4:3 "Then get yourself an iron plate and set it up as an iron wall between you and the city, and set your face toward it so that it is under siege, and besiege, * it. This is a sign to the house of Israel.
Maybe I'm ignorant. Was the technology of the Romans around during the Babylonian Captivity... I.E. ''Iron'''?

Hey fancy meeting you here.

work on these..ill be back later

jkalyna · Oct 16, 2012

ABIDING, WHERE DID YOU HEAD OUT TO, TO GET THE ENCYCLOPEDIA, MAYBE THE SQUIRREL CAN CRACK THIS ONE 2 HUGS 3 IF YOU GET THE ANSWER RIGHT.

Laodicea · Oct 16, 2012

Philippians 2:5-9
(5) Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
(6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
(7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
(8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
(9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Isaiah 14:12-15
(12) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
(13) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
(14) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
(15) Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Bjorn_Gelotte · Oct 16, 2012

Laodicia what on earth does this have to do with the original post?

Shilo · Oct 16, 2012

Bjorn_Gelotte said:

1. If he who is last shall be first......Then because he's first does he go back to being last. I believe he who is last on earth and dies last will be first in heaven.

I have thought about this also. This is a list of parables that have the words first shall be last.
Just what I am thinking at this point.

The Parable of the Workers in the VineyardMatthew 20

Matthew 20:8 When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.
The first people who went to work in God’s Kingdom look to be the last to come up for reward. This shows that it does not dependent upon when individuals start doing the will of God. What God looks at did we fully give ourselves to him and continue to the end. Then there is theMatthew 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good? We should not envy or compare our lives to what God has done or aloud in another’s people's lives. The little we see of others lifes does not always tell the full story.When we compare ourselves to others it can shake our faith. We need to keep our eyes on him and he will do what is best for us and we know this because we trust him.

With God All Things Are Possible Mark 10 and Matthew 19
There are some people who go to church and look like very religious people but the have a foot in the world that is their idol like money , fame or something else. We are to love the Lord with all our heart anything else is not enough. This also looks like rewards but also that the 12 disciples , judging the twelve tribes of Israel. This looks like more is needed to know for sure what is being said here.

The Narrow Way
luke 1322 And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”
And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last.”
Many - will seek - wish and desire to enter in, but they do not strive they do not give it all they have. They make look to us to be the most religious among us but God knows the heart.
Then there is Leah and Rachel. Rachel ( a picture of the Bride of Christ) was chosen first but it was Leah (picture of the Church or the body )that was first. This is a picture of many who are first will be last, and the last first.

Laodicea · Oct 16, 2012

Bjorn_Gelotte said:

Jesus who is God was first yet made Himself last and was exalted. Satan Exalted Himself yet will be brought down. The prophecies in Daniel start as gold the most precious yet goes down to just iron and clay. Daniel 7 starts as the king of beasts the lion and ends up the same as Daniel 2.

Bjorn_Gelotte · Oct 17, 2012

Is there a way I can delete Posts that have nothing to do with the original post from my thread?

Bjorn_Gelotte · Oct 17, 2012

The question is how Daniel knew about technology he had visions about before they were around like Bronze and Iron. I still don't see how any of your posts have the slightest pertinence to the original post.

Bjorn_Gelotte · Oct 17, 2012

Yeah Gold iron and clay..if your going to post on this thread the question is HOW DID DANIEL KNOW TO CALL SOMETHING IRON BEFORE THE TECHNOLOGY OF IRON WAS AROUND...DIG?

Abiding · Oct 17, 2012

Bjorn_Gelotte said:

Yeah Gold iron and clay..if your going to post on this thread the question is HOW DID DANIEL KNOW TO CALL SOMETHING IRON BEFORE THE TECHNOLOGY OF IRON WAS AROUND...DIG?[/QUOT

opps havnt read OP yet. Remember Daniel was very very educated in many sciences.
Iron was used as far back as 3000bc

Production down the road in Anatolia was about 1200 bc

Daniel wrote about 603 bc Also lived on a major trade route.

And even closer iron went into production in Jorden about 930 bc

Ok ill read you OP now

Holler if you have any more demands ok

Abiding · Oct 17, 2012

Bjorn_Gelotte said:

1. If he who is last shall be first......Then because he's first does he go back to being last. I believe he who is last on earth and dies last will be first in heaven.
2. If Jesus said I have come to save the unrighteous and not the righteous, does that mean semantically he is saying the Pharisees are righteous. There are really 2 groups here...The bad off and the worse off. There really is no righteous..no not one. Though his wording makes it seem as if hes calling the Pharisees Holy and Righteous and those who he hung out with the ones who needed a Doctor.
3. Finally-In Prophecies such as Daniel and Ezekiel...there are Beasts referenced based on the technology of their weapons and armor. Rome was Iron, Greece was Bronze I believe etc... Mede-Persian, Assyrian, Babylonian Beasts all had their demarcation by the alloy/metal they used for armor and weaponry.
How could the prophets recognize what iron, bronze and other technology that was 1000s of years away was?
Here are some verses-
Daniel 7:7 “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns
Ezekiel 4:3 "Then get yourself an iron plate and set it up as an iron wall between you and the city, and set your face toward it so that it is under siege, and besiege, * it. This is a sign to the house of Israel.
Maybe I'm ignorant. Was the technology of the Romans around during the Babylonian Captivity... I.E. ''Iron'''?

1 is a general principle...never intended to take to the limits.
2 turn up humor mode. Jesus used obsurdities in many teachings
3 your just incorrect in your facts about the use of metals...in history

Shilo · Oct 17, 2012

3. Finally-In Prophecies such as Daniel and Ezekiel...there are Beasts referenced based on the technology of their weapons and armor. Rome was Iron, Greece was Bronze I believe etc... Mede-Persian, Assyrian, Babylonian Beasts all had their demarcation by the alloy/metal they used for armor and weaponry.
How could the prophets recognize what iron, bronze and other technology that was 1000s of years away was?
Here are some verses-
Daniel 7:7 “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns
Ezekiel 4:3 "Then get yourself an iron plate and set it up as an iron wall between you and the city, and set your face toward it so that it is under siege, and besiege, * it. This is a sign to the house of Israel.
Maybe I'm ignorant. Was the technology of the Romans around during the Babylonian Captivity... I.E. ''Iron'''?[/quote]

The Prophecies of Daniel in the dream that has Iron in it was given to him from God, so God made known to him what Iron was.

Daniel 2
16 So Daniel went in and asked the king to give him time, that he might tell the king the interpretation. 17 Then Daniel went to his house, and made the decision known to Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, his companions, 18 that they might seek mercies from the God of heaven concerning this secret, so that Daniel and his companions might not perish with the rest of the wise men of Babylon. 19 Then the secret was revealed to Daniel in a night vision. So Daniel blessed the God of heaven20 Daniel answered and said:
“Blessed be the name of God forever and ever,
For wisdom and might are His.
21 And He changes the times and the seasons;
He removes kings and raises up kings;
He gives wisdom to the wise
And knowledge to those who have understanding.
22 He reveals deep and secret things;
He knows what is in the darkness,
And light dwells with Him.
23 “I thank You and praise You,
O God of my fathers;
You have given me wisdom and might,
And have now made known to me what we asked of You,
For You have made known to us the king’s demand
Daniel 228 But there is a God in heaven who reveals secrets, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will be in the latter days. Your dream, and the visions of your head upon your bed, were these:

WolfInOxHide · Oct 17, 2012

You are not ignorant, because you are not ignoring the issue.

Yes, they had all of these metallurgies during the time of the writing.
Gold: Self-worth (in various degrees of purity)
Silver: Edifying message (in various degrees of purity)
Bronze: Best tools or works (bronze includes copper and brass, all were the same back then)
Iron: "Unbreakable" weaponry or warfare

(for lack of full dissertation and countless scripture)

All but iron (in most cases) also have the attribute of reflecting light, i.e. sharing revelation.

Peculiarly, our current state of "iron and clay" is reflected in the way we build everything out of rebar mixed with concrete. WORLDWIDE. 0_o

Peace.

Laodicea · Oct 17, 2012

Bjorn_Gelotte said:

Have you ever read this verse
Genesis 4:22
(22) And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah.

A simple search would show that iron has been around since the beginning.

webchatter · Oct 17, 2012

We are all unrighteous, some back then just thought they were righteous. Those who die last on earth, will not be the 1st in heaven, see the 1st ressurection, & ! Thess. 16 & 17. Also the taxpayers were collecting metal coins during Biblical days.Sorry can't find the passage.

WordGaurdian · Oct 17, 2012

Bjorn_Gelotte said:

Question 1
The reference to the last shall be first and the first shall be last, is the reference to flow of times and seasons to the appointments in time concerning the consecrated gifts of office such as apostleship, prophets, evangelitst, etc and how it shall give an indication as to the nearing to the end of time when the cycle return to its last owner before the Kingdom of Heaven is utilised on earth.

Question 2
Jesus was primarily send to rescue and aid the lost and repair the broken as was prophecied. But again it is to also indicate into the time that Jesus spoke. For in His first coming He came to save the lost, but in His second He comes for those who believe and are in a term ("rightious"). Made rightious by Him, yes, but still rightious. So Jesus was not speaking as to the pharisees so much as He was speaking out of time. Yet still those who considered their own rightiousness above those of God would still be considered as to be unrightious if proven so, yet in their faith they would not seek aid or rightiousness even so it is also they that need it.

Question 3
To your simple question here there is actually a simple answer. Yes. Your question... did they know what Iron was. Yes, they did. They knew what bronze was, that knew what clay was. Did they utilize iron in the same way the Roman Empire did... certainly not. Were they at the same level of technological advancement... well we are not quite sure as to what level the Babylonians actually were. We do know there are certainly some things that the Romans could do which they could not, but one also has to understand that most of the technological advancement of the Romans did not come from the Romans at all but from the groups of people they took over like the Greeks.

Did Daniel understood everything he saw, maybe and maybe not. Let me explain. My mother had a vision of the future about twenty years from now. What she explained sounded like something out of a Star Trek movie. Like TV's moving in mid air and projecting out of almost nothing.

Now you might say but maybe she watched to much movies that night. But just the other day I open one of Microsoft's sites and saw a clip of dream of the future. What they had in mind for the next ten years. Wouldn't you believe that they actually showed visually what my mother tried to explain to me 10 years ago.

My mom called it tv's ... maybe the people from the future would also call it that. But it could be that they would call it something different. But what she saw is what she saw. Simple and clear.

This is difficult for a lot of people that never was in contact with a person that had the gift of a prophet to understand. Because what they see plays of like a movie in front of them. And some these days would even say (I saw a movie from God) Yet their reference would be still be based upon the knowledge they have in their own time line.

So yes to the third question.

PS:: just to help you to see when brass and iron was first put in production:
Gen 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
Gen 4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
Gen 4:18 And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech.
Gen 4:19 And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.
Gen 4:20 And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle.
Gen 4:21 And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.
Gen 4:22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah.

Have a nice day

Bjorn_Gelotte · Oct 17, 2012

I meant those like the poor who die on earth while still being last(poor) will be the first in heaven.. Not the first on earth

2 Paradoxes in the Bible and a Question

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