2 Peter 3:9 true versus false translations of.

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O

OldOrthodoxChristian

Banned
#1
Nov 23, 2011
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#1
2 Peter 3:9

True translation of II St. Peter3:9
"The Lord is not slow as to the promise, as some deem slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not willing to have any perish, but to have all come to repentance". ONT Orthodox New Testament, Volume 2, page 471.
(Words in italics added to clarify the meaning).

False translation of II St. Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some men count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any of us should perish, but that all of us should come to repentance."
MKJV Modern King James Version, page 1076.

Modern King James Version of the Holy Bible. Published by Sovereign Grace Trust Fund, Lafayette, IN 47903 Copyright 1990, by Jay P. Green, Sr.

ONT Orthodox New Testament, Volume 2, Copyright 2000 by Holy
Apostles Convent, Buena Vista, CO.

In the false translation of 2 Peter 3:9 in the Modern King James Version, the words "concerning His" are in italics, showing words added to clarify the meaning. These words do clarify the meaning in English of words that are not in the original Greek. But the words
not willing that any "of us" should perish,
but that all "of us" should come to repentance, are FALSE, revealing a false, Calvinistic bias by Mr. Jay P. Green, Sr. These words are not even implied by the original Greek, but reflect a false, Calvinist doctrine of "the elect", of "us" versus "them" in God. Not that all "of us" should come to repentance; but that "all" (everyone) should come to repentance. God save us. Amen.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington December 2011 AD

 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#2
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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#2
What would happen if God decided, right now, that was it? He was going to end everything and only the saved already were going to be saved and everyone else who was not saved too bad for them. Even the elect, right now, who havent been saved yet, would perish. But, because God is long-suffering toward us, the elect who have not been saved yet will be saved too before God decides that's it.

The elect is not a false doctrine. It is a biblical doctrine.

Matthew 24:24 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
 
G

GraceBeUntoYou

Guest
#3
#3
OldOrthodoxChristian said:
2 Peter 3:9

True translation of II St. Peter3:9
"The Lord is not slow as to the promise, as some deem slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not willing to have any perish, but to have all come to repentance". ONT Orthodox New Testament, Volume 2, page 471.
(Words in italics added to clarify the meaning).

False translation of II St. Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some men count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any of us should perish, but that all of us should come to repentance."
MKJV Modern King James Version, page 1076.

Modern King James Version of the Holy Bible. Published by Sovereign Grace Trust Fund, Lafayette, IN 47903 Copyright 1990, by Jay P. Green, Sr.

ONT Orthodox New Testament, Volume 2, Copyright 2000 by Holy
Apostles Convent, Buena Vista, CO.

In the false translation of 2 Peter 3:9 in the Modern King James Version, the words "concerning His" are in italics, showing words added to clarify the meaning. These words do clarify the meaning in English of words that are not in the original Greek. But the words
not willing that any "of us" should perish,
but that all "of us" should come to repentance, are FALSE, revealing a false, Calvinistic bias by Mr. Jay P. Green, Sr. These words are not even implied by the original Greek, but reflect a false, Calvinist doctrine of "the elect", of "us" versus "them" in God. Not that all "of us" should come to repentance; but that "all" (everyone) should come to repentance. God save us. Amen.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington December 2011 AD
Click to expand...


I answered this exact objection in a dialog between the two of us a while back, whether you caught it is another story. Pay particular attention to the last couple paragraphs:

Peter writes, “The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.” What a beautiful text, yes, how beautiful it is indeed! Especially when you don’t isolate it from its surrounding texts and trying to make it imply something that it was never meant to imply, and that is that God wishes for everybody, everywhere to come to repentance.

Notice who the letter is addressed to, fellow brethren, the "beloved” of v. 1, also referred to as “you (v. 1, 8),” and “we (v. 13).” And notice in v. 3 Peter begins to speak of scoffers, and refers to them in third person as “they” or “them” (v. 3, “their”; v. 4-5, “they”). So almost immediately we have an "us" vs. "them" distinction. Peter says in regards to the scoffers in vv. 5-6, "For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water." But yet in regards to his audience, the “beloved (v. 1, 8),” Peter writes, “But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth… .”

Peter writes in v. 8, "But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day." And it is in this context that Peter says in the very next verse, "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you [“beloved,” v. 1, v. 8], not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

Further, it should be noted that there is referential connection between the "you" and "any/all” in v. 9. Why is God patient, and who is He patient towards? He's patient towards the "you” of v. 9, whom is the beloved of v. 8. Why? Because God does not wish for any of “you” to perish. This “any” does not mean "anyone, everybody, everywhere," rather, it is directed towards the same group of people that He is patient towards -- "any" referring to "you" -- "any of you."

Additionally, the Greek word 'tinas,' a form of the root 'tis,' is an indefinite pronoun; thus, the "any" in this clause ("...not willing that any [tinas] should parish...") refers to an exclusive group, a certain group of people, and does not entail everyone, everywhere. So the clause could just as accurately be translated, and probably even more conveniently as, "...not willing that certain ones should perish..." or "...not willing that some should perish... ."
​
The “any” does indeed mean “any of you," and this is wrought by the participle which gives reason why the Lord is "patient toward you.” How is God's patience toward His elect demonstrated by stating God wishes every single individual to come to repentance?

The clear teaching of the passage is that the reason that God expresses patience towards the elect, is because He does not wish for any to perish. Don't make the text say something that it doesn't say.
 
X

xJoe

Guest
#4
#4
Let's compare some scripture.
Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
So the fire was PREPARED for the devil and his angels, "italics" (and whoever God didn't elect)
For this to go together with calvanism EVERY PERSON who is not elect is one of the devils angels.
 
F

Forest

Guest
#5
#5
Grandpa said:
What would happen if God decided, right now, that was it? He was going to end everything and only the saved already were going to be saved and everyone else who was not saved too bad for them. Even the elect, right now, who havent been saved yet, would perish. But, because God is long-suffering toward us, the elect who have not been saved yet will be saved too before God decides that's it.

The elect is not a false doctrine. It is a biblical doctrine.

Matthew 24:24 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Click to expand...
The elect were all saved eternally by the shed blood of Jesus on the cross and none of them were lost.(John 6:37-41). Christ did not die for the sins of all mankind, but only for those that God gave him.
 
O

OldOrthodoxChristian

Banned
#6
Nov 23, 2011
772
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#6
[quote=Forest;600965]The elect were all saved eternally by the shed

blood of Jesus on the cross and none of them were lost.(John

6:37-41). Christ did not die for the sins of all mankind, but only for

those that God gave him.[/quote]

Dear Forest:

Again, Calvinism is heresy.

Christ did die for the sins of all mankind, according to John 3:16 and 1

John 2:2.

According to John 3:16 and 1 John 2:2, that is not so! God loves the

whole world, not merely the elect.

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son, that

whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life"

(John 3:16 KJV).

"And He Himself is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but

also for the whole world". 1 John 2:2 ONT (Orthodox New Testament,

Volume 2, page 479).

Christ died not merely for our sins only, but also "for the whole world".

The whole world includes the whole world. It says nothing about "the

elect only".

In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#7
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
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#7
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Specific group of people. Believers. Obviously not all believe in the Lord Jesus.


John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Once again another specific group of people. Unbelievers.

God Loves all. But not all Loves God back. Why not? That is the million dollar question. Lots of people say they have the answer to it. God only knows.

Free will seems to answer the question best, doesn't it? People decide with their free-will to not love God. But do you really have free-will? Or are you a slave to righteousness? Or a slave to sin? God only knows.

Pre-destination is also an answer. God pre-destined the elect to be saved. Makes sense, since He is sovereign that He would ultimately decide. But this goes against our cherished will of man. Oh no. And it seems to go against the Love of God, too. If God Loves us all why would He choose some (maybe most) to be condemned? God only Knows.

There is obviously an elect. The bible says so. Who does the electing? You? or God. Obviously God. Since God does the electing, pre-destination seems to make more sense doesn't it? God obviously knows who He is going to elect before hand, right? How does God know before hand? Only God Knows.

Sometimes we just have to admit, only God Knows. When some church or other cries "heresy" so what? They are pretending to be in God's place. They are pretending to know what only God can know.
When God saved you He did something in your Life. He changed You. He did something to you, and for you. You know something that people who pretend to know, don't know. You know that the Power of God has nothing to do with you. You know that there is nothing in you that caused God to choose you. You know the Truth because the Truth is in you now. Don't you know that you were hopelessly sinful without the Lord Jesus? I sure do. And it baffles me how there could possibly be an argument over this. Maybe that is just the nature of man...
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#8
#8
Grandpa said:
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Specific group of people. Believers. Obviously not all believe in the Lord Jesus.


John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Once again another specific group of people. Unbelievers.

God Loves all. But not all Loves God back. Why not? That is the million dollar question. Lots of people say they have the answer to it. God only knows.

Free will seems to answer the question best, doesn't it? People decide with their free-will to not love God. But do you really have free-will? Or are you a slave to righteousness? Or a slave to sin? God only knows.

Pre-destination is also an answer. God pre-destined the elect to be saved. Makes sense, since He is sovereign that He would ultimately decide. But this goes against our cherished will of man. Oh no. And it seems to go against the Love of God, too. If God Loves us all why would He choose some (maybe most) to be condemned? God only Knows.

There is obviously an elect. The bible says so. Who does the electing? You? or God. Obviously God. Since God does the electing, pre-destination seems to make more sense doesn't it? God obviously knows who He is going to elect before hand, right? How does God know before hand? Only God Knows.

Sometimes we just have to admit, only God Knows. When some church or other cries "heresy" so what? They are pretending to be in God's place. They are pretending to know what only God can know.
When God saved you He did something in your Life. He changed You. He did something to you, and for you. You know something that people who pretend to know, don't know. You know that the Power of God has nothing to do with you. You know that there is nothing in you that caused God to choose you. You know the Truth because the Truth is in you now. Don't you know that you were hopelessly sinful without the Lord Jesus? I sure do. And it baffles me how there could possibly be an argument over this. Maybe that is just the nature of man...
Click to expand...
Actually it is simple, If we understand the character and traits of God.

In eternity past. Long before the earth was created. God decided to creat this world we live in, and put man in it.

God looked at his creation, and knew man was going to rebell.

God looked for an answer to save the creation he would love, And created the plan of salvation. And Christ offered to fulfill that plan.

God then looked throughout all creation and time, And looked at who would receive his gift of salvation. At this point, He chose to save these people. And he promised his son that if he went and did this plan of his, He would give his son all these "chosen" people.

Unfortunately, He also know many would reject his gift. He also chose to allow them to suffer their eternal fate. It does not mean he never loved them, or would not offer them the same gift. He loved them in spite of themselves. His justice, however, would not allow his love to over rule his just demand of payment for sin.
 
O

OldOrthodoxChristian

Banned
#9
Nov 23, 2011
772
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0
#9

eternally-gratefull;601151 said:
Actually it is simple, If we

understand the character and traits of God.

In eternity past. Long before the earth was created. God

decided to creat this world we live in, and put man in it.

God looked at his creation, and knew man was going to

rebell.

God looked for an answer to save the creation he would love,

And created the plan of salvation. And Christ offered to fulfill

that plan.

God then looked throughout all creation and time, And looked

at who would receive his gift of salvation. At this point, He

chose to save these people. And he promised his son that if he

went and did this plan of his, He would give his son all these

"chosen" people.

Unfortunately, He also know many would reject his gift. He

also chose to allow them to suffer their eternal fate. It does

not mean he never loved them, or would not offer them the

same gift. He loved them in spite of themselves. His justice,

however, would not allow his love to over rule his just

demand of payment for sin.

Click to expand...


Dear eternallygrateful:

"Their eternal fate"? That is fatalism! Fatalism is a sin

against God. It is Calvinism, which is a sin against God.

It presumes to speak for God. There is no such thing as

"fate". There is only God's Sovereignty, which is equal to

God's love. God's Sovereignty does not cause everything that

comes to pass. God only causes good things. God only does

good things. God saves. He does not damn anyone. Sinners

who do not repent condemn themselves. This is not's God's

will. It's not God's plan. It's not God's predestination.

Predestination is only to eternal life for the elect whom God

choose in Jesus Christ. There is no predestination to

condemnation.

See:

Orthodox Answers to Calvinists @ Orthodox Answers

Orthodox Answers to Calvinists @ Orthodox Answers

God bless us and save us. Amen.

In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 
O

OldOrthodoxChristian

Banned
#10
Nov 23, 2011
772
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0
#10
eternally-gratefull;601151 said:
Actually it is simple, If we understand the character and traits of God. ....
Click to expand...


re: Calvinist Manichean fatalism (Calvinist Manichean dualism)...


"Augustine: Saint? or Manichean Neo-Platonism Gnostic?

by Ken Willis The Ken Willis Blog

The Sins of Augustine by Chuck Fisher

thekenwillisblog.wordpress.com/2010/02/01/augustine-saint-or-manichean-neo-platonism-gnostic/

In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#11
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
113
#11
OldOrthodoxChristian said:
Dear eternallygrateful:

"Their eternal fate"? That is fatalism! Fatalism is a sin

against God. It is Calvinism, which is a sin against God.

It presumes to speak for God. There is no such thing as

"fate". There is only God's Sovereignty, which is equal to

God's love. God's Sovereignty does not cause everything that

comes to pass. God only causes good things. God only does

good things. God saves. He does not damn anyone. Sinners

who do not repent condemn themselves. This is not's God's

will. It's not God's plan. It's not God's predestination.

Predestination is only to eternal life for the elect whom God

choose in Jesus Christ. There is no predestination to

condemnation.

See:

Orthodox Answers to Calvinists @ Orthodox Answers

Orthodox Answers to Calvinists @ Orthodox Answers

God bless us and save us. Amen.

In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
Click to expand...
You contradict yourself, alot. You say fatalism is a sin against God and then you say the elect are pre-destined to eternal life. You realize pre-destination is fate?

Also if a group of elect is chosen to eternal life then a certain other group is not chosen. Right?

Perhaps you should re-read what Eternally-Gratefull wrote. Or would you like to prove my point even further?
 
O

OldOrthodoxChristian

Banned
#12
Nov 23, 2011
772
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0
#12
Grandpa;601416 said:
You contradict yourself, alot. You say fatalism is a sin against God and

then you say the elect are pre-destined to eternal life. You realize pre-destination is

fate?

Also if a group of elect is chosen to eternal life then a certain other group is not chosen. Right?

Perhaps you should re-read what Eternally-Gratefull wrote. Or would you like to prove my point even further?
Click to expand...


Dear grandpa:

I don't contradict myself. I contradict Calvinism, which is fatalism. Calvinism is double

predestination.

Scripture teaches single predestination. Predestination is not fate, but God's will to have

mercy on whom He will have mercy. No one who reads Scripture correctly can deny God

has the ability and the right to save whomever He wills to save. But He does not will to

predestine anyone to damnation.

Calvinists impugn God's holy character by attributing evil to God Himself. That's a sin

against God!

God have mercy on us. Amen. In Erie Scott Harrington


 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#13
#13
OldOrthodoxChristian said:


Dear grandpa:

I don't contradict myself. I contradict Calvinism, which is fatalism. Calvinism is double

predestination.

Scripture teaches single predestination. Predestination is not fate, but God's will to have

mercy on whom He will have mercy. No one who reads Scripture correctly can deny God

has the ability and the right to save whomever He wills to save. But He does not will to

predestine anyone to damnation.

Calvinists impugn God's holy character by attributing evil to God Himself. That's a sin

against God!

God have mercy on us. Amen. In Erie Scott Harrington
Click to expand...

Actually, yes he does scott. Just not the way calvanist like to teach it. He predestines them to an eternity away from him based on his foreknowledge of their free will decision to reject his love and gift of eternal life.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#14
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
113
#14
OldOrthodoxChristian said:
Dear grandpa:

I don't contradict myself. I contradict Calvinism, which is fatalism. Calvinism is double

predestination.

Scripture teaches single predestination. Predestination is not fate, but God's will to have

mercy on whom He will have mercy. No one who reads Scripture correctly can deny God

has the ability and the right to save whomever He wills to save. But He does not will to

predestine anyone to damnation.

Calvinists impugn God's holy character by attributing evil to God Himself. That's a sin

against God!

God have mercy on us. Amen. In Erie Scott Harrington
Click to expand...
Let's see if we can do this without bringing up that "dirty word" Calvin. You seem to get upset by it so lets not use it, ok?

Pre-destination means that ones future is pre-determined, by God.
Fate means that ones future is pre-determined, by God.

Do you have different definitions for these words?

Also defining what "double pre-destination" is would probably be helpful. I honestly don't know what you mean by this. I would think a single dose should be sufficient.

I've agreed with everything that you've said EG, btw.
 
O

OldOrthodoxChristian

Banned
#15
Nov 23, 2011
772
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0
#15
Grandpa;601797 said:
Let's see if we can do this without bringing up that "dirty word" Calvin. You seem to get upset by it so lets not use it, ok?

 Pre-destination means that ones future is pre-determined, by God.
 Fate means that ones future is pre-determined, by God.

 Do you have different definitions for these words?

 Also defining what "double pre-destination" is would probably be helpful. I honestly don't know what you mean by this. I would think a single dose should be sufficient.
I've agreed with everything that you've said EG, btw.
Click to expand...
Grandpa, Double predestination is in the Westminster Confession

of Faith (WCF) of 1646 AD.

WCF Chapter III. Of God's Eternal Decree.

III. "By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some

men and angels are predestined unto everlasting life, and others

foreordained to everlasting death". [page 198: John H. Leith, ed.

(1982). CREEDS OF THE CHURCHES: A Reader in Christian Doctrine

from the Bible to the Present. Third Edition. Louisville, KY:

Westminster John Knox Press.

This creed of Westminster contradicts the Bible, in Chapter III, section

III; it also contradicts the Bible, John 15:26, in WCF Chapter II,

section III, Of God, and of the Holy Trinity. If it can't even get its

doctrine of the Trinity right, how is it going to get right the correct

and Biblical doctrine of election (predestination)?

God save us. Amen. In Erie PA USA December 2011 AD Mr.

Scott R. Harrington

PS Grandpa, Do a study of the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of

the Bible, for the KJV (King James Version); see how, then, the word

"fate" is not used in the King James Bible. If the Bible does not say

"fate", then there is no such thing as "fate".

The Bible does not say fate; therefore, there is no such thing as fate.

If God had wanted it to be known, and believed, it would be in the

Bible, because the Bible contains what is necessary to know.

Search for secret knowledge of "fate", is a kind of Gnosticism!

 
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