2 Thessalonians 2
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There you go again. Making totally false claims. I've never denied what I post.
Why didn't you provide your definition of what you mean by "defamatory", since you charged me with being that? I asked for an example. But since you haven't, I guess you don't have one.
It's a good idea to know what a word means before you charge others with it.
There you go again. Making totally false claims. I've never denied what I post.
Why didn't you provide your definition of what you mean by "defamatory", since you charged me with being that? I asked for an example. But since you haven't, I guess you don't have one.
It's a good idea to know what a word means before you charge others with it.
The only unfortunate thing is you don't seem understand scrpture.
You really have a hard time dissecting scriptures. So, you think the ABOVE verse applies to the End Times, but it doesn't, that verse was for the Disciples and the 70 AD event. Verses 7-14 were for the Disciples and the Church Age (mostly for the Disciples). And verses 15-31 were for the Jews during the 70th week. LOOK for the number of times false christs are mentioned and you will understand(Maybe) the three different phases of context. Jesus had just told the Disciples about the Temple being toen down soon. (this was to build their faith, and to forewarn them about a coming perilous time, and them their lives would all be in danger, save John, which is why one of the other disciples asked about John somewhere in scriptures and Jesus told him pretty much to let him worry about all that. (In other words, he was like, God and I know what we are doing, chill out)
THE THREE QUESTIONS
Matt 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?(Temple torn down) and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
So Jesus when he answers firstly answers about the Temple in verses 4-6.
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you(Disciples). 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ(This fulfills John 5:43, the Pharisees put forth men as such); and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Jesus tells them here that the Pharisees will fulfill John 5:43, they put forth Messianic figures whom they saw as a Political Savior, to save them from the Fourth Beast (Rome) and thus from about 66 AD - 70 AD they had a tussle with Rome, and Rome, of course, sacked the city and dispersed the Jews the world over. Jesus is FOREWARNING the Disciples, Hey, when you hear that a Messiah has shown up, don't buy it, THE END IS NOT YET............or is BY & BY as another Gospel says, meaning the 70th week !! OF COURSE, that would be 2000 some odd years later. He is telling them not to come rushing back to Jerusalem to fight in that war or those wars, fr]or that messianic figure will ot be me. THUS........That Temple will be TORN DOWN. Verses 4-6 answered.
So, you have you the verses all mangled up, thus they catch you off guard. So, Jesus in verses 24-28 is talking to the End Time 70th week Jews and you are trying to apply his 70 AD Temple reference unto my point, that's not going to work out brother. Get it together man, you should be ab;e to grasp these things better than that.
Verses 7-14 are about the Church Age, and mostly the Disciples, he tells them they will all die and hated of this world fr his name's sake, then he tells them they must ENDURE UNTIL THE END [of their lives, just like Pau stated, its a Marathon). A lot of people take that as an End Time Prophecy, IT IS NOT. In verse 14 Jesus tells the Disciples wat will bring THE END (70th week) which before he warned them was BY & BY. He says when the Gospel was preached unto ALL THE WORLD, then and ONLY THEN, would the end (70th week) come. So, Jesus gave them an incentive to get the Gospel unto the ends of the earth, China and India were known entities, they knew the END was not going to be soon, they knew they would all die for Jesus name, he forewarned them to make them all understand that in order to take this Gospel unto the ends of the earth they were going to have to go forth and be bold, even unto death !! They knew that THE END (70th week) could only come once the Gospel was preached unto ALL THE WORLD, thus none of Mat. 24:7-14 is about the END TIME 70th week !! It is just horrible that so many people big down into this sand trap tbh. We have the PERFECT TRANSITION, Jesis in verse 14 tells us that when the Gospel is taken unto the Ends of the world THE END will come, then in verse 15 we are in the middle of the 70th week via the Abomination of Desolation.
So, why are you QUOTING to me, Matthew 24:4 speaking about END TIME DECEPTION, when I am speaking about the 70th week? Jesus specifically tells them in verses 24:-28 that it is NOT POSSIBLE to deceive them because Jesus has told them BEFOREHAND, where he will be coming from. Yu see, you couldn't;t argue the facts so you tried to change the subject, but I know the TIMELINE better than you do. The early bird gets the worm !!
AGAIN.....................................Matt. 24:24-28 is SPECIFICALLY about the End Time Elect, those in 2 Thess. 2 were not going to be living during the 70th week. The Thessalonians were just told not to fear, because they would be raptured before the DOTL came. That thus had zero to do with the Matt. 24:24-28 verses
AGAIN..............You just don't understand the scriptures, not all people are called unto Prophetic understandings
You really have a hard time dissecting scriptures. So, you think the ABOVE verse applies to the End Times, but it doesn't, that verse was for the Disciples and the 70 AD event. Verses 7-14 were for the Disciples and the Church Age (mostly for the Disciples). And verses 15-31 were for the Jews during the 70th week. LOOK for the number of times false christs are mentioned and you will understand(Maybe) the three different phases of context. Jesus had just told the Disciples about the Temple being toen down soon. (this was to build their faith, and to forewarn them about a coming perilous time, and them their lives would all be in danger, save John, which is why one of the other disciples asked about John somewhere in scriptures and Jesus told him pretty much to let him worry about all that. (In other words, he was like, God and I know what we are doing, chill out)
THE THREE QUESTIONS
Matt 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?(Temple torn down) and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
So Jesus when he answers firstly answers about the Temple in verses 4-6.
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you(Disciples). 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ(This fulfills John 5:43, the Pharisees put forth men as such); and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Jesus tells them here that the Pharisees will fulfill John 5:43, they put forth Messianic figures whom they saw as a Political Savior, to save them from the Fourth Beast (Rome) and thus from about 66 AD - 70 AD they had a tussle with Rome, and Rome, of course, sacked the city and dispersed the Jews the world over. Jesus is FOREWARNING the Disciples, Hey, when you hear that a Messiah has shown up, don't buy it, THE END IS NOT YET............or is BY & BY as another Gospel says, meaning the 70th week !! OF COURSE, that would be 2000 some odd years later. He is telling them not to come rushing back to Jerusalem to fight in that war or those wars, fr]or that messianic figure will ot be me. THUS........That Temple will be TORN DOWN. Verses 4-6 answered.
So, you have you the verses all mangled up, thus they catch you off guard. So, Jesus in verses 24-28 is talking to the End Time 70th week Jews and you are trying to apply his 70 AD Temple reference unto my point, that's not going to work out brother. Get it together man, you should be ab;e to grasp these things better than that.
Verses 7-14 are about the Church Age, and mostly the Disciples, he tells them they will all die and hated of this world fr his name's sake, then he tells them they must ENDURE UNTIL THE END [of their lives, just like Pau stated, its a Marathon). A lot of people take that as an End Time Prophecy, IT IS NOT. In verse 14 Jesus tells the Disciples wat will bring THE END (70th week) which before he warned them was BY & BY. He says when the Gospel was preached unto ALL THE WORLD, then and ONLY THEN, would the end (70th week) come. So, Jesus gave them an incentive to get the Gospel unto the ends of the earth, China and India were known entities, they knew the END was not going to be soon, they knew they would all die for Jesus name, he forewarned them to make them all understand that in order to take this Gospel unto the ends of the earth they were going to have to go forth and be bold, even unto death !! They knew that THE END (70th week) could only come once the Gospel was preached unto ALL THE WORLD, thus none of Mat. 24:7-14 is about the END TIME 70th week !! It is just horrible that so many people big down into this sand trap tbh. We have the PERFECT TRANSITION, Jesis in verse 14 tells us that when the Gospel is taken unto the Ends of the world THE END will come, then in verse 15 we are in the middle of the 70th week via the Abomination of Desolation.
So, why are you QUOTING to me, Matthew 24:4 speaking about END TIME DECEPTION, when I am speaking about the 70th week? Jesus specifically tells them in verses 24:-28 that it is NOT POSSIBLE to deceive them because Jesus has told them BEFOREHAND, where he will be coming from. Yu see, you couldn't;t argue the facts so you tried to change the subject, but I know the TIMELINE better than you do. The early bird gets the worm !!
AGAIN.....................................Matt. 24:24-28 is SPECIFICALLY about the End Time Elect, those in 2 Thess. 2 were not going to be living during the 70th week. The Thessalonians were just told not to fear, because they would be raptured before the DOTL came. That thus had zero to do with the Matt. 24:24-28 verses
AGAIN..............You just don't understand the scriptures, not all people are called unto Prophetic understandings
Let's prove that the Church comes back with Jesus BEFORE the Rev. 20:4 Judgment seat AND while the Beast is still alive on this earth.
Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife(Church) hath made herself ready. 8 And to her(Church) was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
So, the Church is in Heaven AT THIS TIME, Marrying the Lamb. She is arrayed in FINE WHITE LINEN !!
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean (Church and his Angels, but the FINE WHITE Linen tells us the Church has already been Judged and Married the Lamb IN HEAVEN, before Jesus' Second Coming).
The Beast and His Armies are STILL ON EARTH !!
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse(Jesus), and against his army(Church).
Now, tell me how this is not the Church IN HEAVEN before the Beast is killed, getting married to the Lamb?
It's very simple, you guys make it complex by getting into men's traditions and holding on to them like a turtle's grasp. Let it go, you were taught in error, who cares, we all journey from ERROR to TRUTH in Christ Jesus.
Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife(Church) hath made herself ready. 8 And to her(Church) was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
So, the Church is in Heaven AT THIS TIME, Marrying the Lamb. She is arrayed in FINE WHITE LINEN !!
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean (Church and his Angels, but the FINE WHITE Linen tells us the Church has already been Judged and Married the Lamb IN HEAVEN, before Jesus' Second Coming).
The Beast and His Armies are STILL ON EARTH !!
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse(Jesus), and against his army(Church).
Now, tell me how this is not the Church IN HEAVEN before the Beast is killed, getting married to the Lamb?
It's very simple, you guys make it complex by getting into men's traditions and holding on to them like a turtle's grasp. Let it go, you were taught in error, who cares, we all journey from ERROR to TRUTH in Christ Jesus.
Have you read Rev 20 yet?
1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
v.1-3 occurs when Christ appears at the Second Advent.
v.4 refers to the believers who died during the Trib and are resurrected and will reign with Christ 1,000 years. And remember that Jesus brings all dead believers with Him when He comes at the Second Advent.
v.5 refers to all dead unbelievers, who will be "raised" to appear at the GWT judgment, which occurs AFTER the 1,000 yr reign.
Rev 20 flows chonologically. The GWT occurs after Satan is cast into the lake of fire, to join the beast and false prophet. All the rest of the unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire after being judged according to their works.
Are you SDA?
1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
v.1-3 occurs when Christ appears at the Second Advent.
v.4 refers to the believers who died during the Trib and are resurrected and will reign with Christ 1,000 years. And remember that Jesus brings all dead believers with Him when He comes at the Second Advent.
v.5 refers to all dead unbelievers, who will be "raised" to appear at the GWT judgment, which occurs AFTER the 1,000 yr reign.
Rev 20 flows chonologically. The GWT occurs after Satan is cast into the lake of fire, to join the beast and false prophet. All the rest of the unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire after being judged according to their works.
Are you SDA?
‘The angels said, ‘Mary, Allāh gives you news of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, who will be held in honour in this world and the next, who will be one of those brought near to Allāh. He will speak to people in his infancy and in his adulthood. He will be one of the righteous.’ (Al‘Imran: 45-46; my emphasis).
Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) is the Messiah - accepted as such by both Christians and Muslims. He is most certainly not the 'anti-Christ'.
Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) is the Messiah - accepted as such by both Christians and Muslims. He is most certainly not the 'anti-Christ'.
Correct, but most Muslims will be deceived about that and so will the Christian Pre-tribulation rapture theorists.
In Christianity, the anti-Christ comes first to deceive the world. Jesus comes after the anti-Christ.
In Islam, the first person to show up is who they think will be their savior, but that will actually be the anti-Christ. Muslims will trust the anti-Christ. Jesus will show up next and Muslims will think He is the devil in the flesh.
What I am saying is that eschatology in Christianity and Islam is entirely reversed. Islam is a huge End Times deception.
There's too much to write here because this deserves it's own thread. Maybe I'll do that later. Here's a video I recommend comparing Christian Eschatology to Islam Eschatology:
In Christianity, the anti-Christ comes first to deceive the world. Jesus comes after the anti-Christ.
In Islam, the first person to show up is who they think will be their savior, but that will actually be the anti-Christ. Muslims will trust the anti-Christ. Jesus will show up next and Muslims will think He is the devil in the flesh.
What I am saying is that eschatology in Christianity and Islam is entirely reversed. Islam is a huge End Times deception.
There's too much to write here because this deserves it's own thread. Maybe I'll do that later. Here's a video I recommend comparing Christian Eschatology to Islam Eschatology:
You write:
‘In Christianity, the anti-Christ comes first to deceive the world. Jesus comes after the anti-Christ.’
Islam agrees. The anti-Christ is named as al-Masīḥ ad-Dajjāl (‘the false messiah, liar, the deceiver, the deceiving messiah'). The Qur’an itself does not refer to such a person, or to a millennium of any description.
According to Sunni eschatology this man will live for a little over a year, before being killed by Yeshua.
According to some, this will take place in Lod (near Tel Aviv); others that it will occur at Afiq (near the Sea of Galilee).
The Dajjāl is most certainly not regarded as a ‘saviour’. In Islam there is – and only ever can be – one Saviour, and that is Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla).
Marcia Hermansen writes:
‘It would therefore be futile to present Muslim theological positions on eschatology as if there were a consensus regarding each detail of what is expected at the end of time. By their very nature, eschatological doctrines test the limits of our rational and customary experience, thereby reminding us of the fragility of our attachment to conditions that strike us now as unquestionably real.’ (‘The Cambridge Companion to Classical Islamic Theology’).
Islamic puritans believe that Yeshua will destroy both Christianity and Judaism (and anyone else who does not share their perception of Islam). This is a direct contravention of the Qur’an.
Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) tells us: ‘We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If Allāh had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to Allāh and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 48).
This means that the three Abrahamic Faiths will survive until the Day of Judgement (‘Yawm ad-Dīn’).
And this is what the Exalted has to say about Jews and Christians:
'Those who believe and do good deeds are the best of creation. Their reward with their Lord is everlasting Gardens graced with flowing streams, where they will stay forever. Allāh is well pleased with them and they with Him. All this is for those who stand in awe of their Lord.’ (Al-Bayyina 7 -8; my emphasis ).
Take especial note of these verses. It has been – for seventy-five years – my privilege to know – and to love – many Christians who were shining examples of Christian love and good practice. These verses assure me that they shall have their reward in Heaven. These verses assure me that every Christian, and every Jew, who carries the Exalted in their hearts, and who strives to do good, will have their reward. This is a solemn promise, and the Exalted does not renege on His promises.
By the way, not is not the best use of your time to offer me videos. What you need to do – should you ever wish to do so – is to extract from the video those arguments you wish me to consider, along with the presenter's supporting evidence. Videos will always be ignored. I much prefer bookwork and scholarship.
Have a great day, and very best regards.
‘In Christianity, the anti-Christ comes first to deceive the world. Jesus comes after the anti-Christ.’
Islam agrees. The anti-Christ is named as al-Masīḥ ad-Dajjāl (‘the false messiah, liar, the deceiver, the deceiving messiah'). The Qur’an itself does not refer to such a person, or to a millennium of any description.
According to Sunni eschatology this man will live for a little over a year, before being killed by Yeshua.
According to some, this will take place in Lod (near Tel Aviv); others that it will occur at Afiq (near the Sea of Galilee).
The Dajjāl is most certainly not regarded as a ‘saviour’. In Islam there is – and only ever can be – one Saviour, and that is Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla).
Marcia Hermansen writes:
‘It would therefore be futile to present Muslim theological positions on eschatology as if there were a consensus regarding each detail of what is expected at the end of time. By their very nature, eschatological doctrines test the limits of our rational and customary experience, thereby reminding us of the fragility of our attachment to conditions that strike us now as unquestionably real.’ (‘The Cambridge Companion to Classical Islamic Theology’).
Islamic puritans believe that Yeshua will destroy both Christianity and Judaism (and anyone else who does not share their perception of Islam). This is a direct contravention of the Qur’an.
Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) tells us: ‘We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If Allāh had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to Allāh and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 48).
This means that the three Abrahamic Faiths will survive until the Day of Judgement (‘Yawm ad-Dīn’).
And this is what the Exalted has to say about Jews and Christians:
'Those who believe and do good deeds are the best of creation. Their reward with their Lord is everlasting Gardens graced with flowing streams, where they will stay forever. Allāh is well pleased with them and they with Him. All this is for those who stand in awe of their Lord.’ (Al-Bayyina 7 -8; my emphasis ).
Take especial note of these verses. It has been – for seventy-five years – my privilege to know – and to love – many Christians who were shining examples of Christian love and good practice. These verses assure me that they shall have their reward in Heaven. These verses assure me that every Christian, and every Jew, who carries the Exalted in their hearts, and who strives to do good, will have their reward. This is a solemn promise, and the Exalted does not renege on His promises.
By the way, not is not the best use of your time to offer me videos. What you need to do – should you ever wish to do so – is to extract from the video those arguments you wish me to consider, along with the presenter's supporting evidence. Videos will always be ignored. I much prefer bookwork and scholarship.
Have a great day, and very best regards.
@Runningman
Permit me to tell you a little of my paternal grandfather:
He was taken out of school at the age of ten, and set to work in a local coal-mine (unlawful, but who cared?).
Using the local Miners’ Institute – these were centres of learning at that time (and being a book-worm) – he became a polymath (and well versed in both Hebrew and Greek). His second great passion – Faith and Family together being his first – was music. Able to play both violin and piano, he was appointed Musical Director of the Glanselsig Amateur Operatic Society. His favourite work was Handel’s Messiah. I can see him now, dressed in his black evening suit, white shirt, black dickie-bow, conducting a full chorus and orchestra, with his white baton; with every word, every note engraved in his heart. I have his baton, but none of his talent!
In the 1920’s, a number of Italian families moved into Glamorgan and set up shops and cafes. One of these families (the Bassini’s) settled in Tynewydd (my home town, in the Rhondda).
When Italy declared war, and joined with Germany, the UK government issued an internment order against those it deemed to be ‘enemy civilians’. This included the Bassini’s. The husband (I knew him as Jack) was taken away, but his wife and children were allowed to remain in their home (they had a café and a fish and chip shop, located side-by-side).
One day, my grandfather was returning from work, only to discover a mob hurling abuse (and stones) at the Bassini’s and their home; at people they had once called friends. He stood between the mob and their target, and told them to stop, and to return to their homes. They did.
Many years later, the family’s eldest daughter (Maria) was accepted as a Carmelite nun; and my grandfather and grandmother were invited to attend her induction ceremony. A great honour.
My grandfather was a Baptist; an Elder at Blaencwm Chapel. The Elders employed the Minister.
When I was a teenager, one Minister visited my grandfather’s house. He was treated like royalty. My grandfather called him ‘Sir’. Later, I asked my grandfather why he had called this man ‘Sir’ after all, he was the Minister’s boss!
My grandfather smiled, and said: ‘I’m just an Elder. The Minister speaks the Word!’
When my grandfather died, several hundred men – of all ages – attended his funeral (women did not do so in those days). They filled the cemetery chapel, and many were weeping openly.
My grandfather was able to calm a howling mob – and to move the hearts of many – not because of any legal authority (he had none), but because of his character; because of the person he was. He lived his Faith as it was meant to be lived. A Christian would say that he reflected the love of Jesus; and that it was this that made him a shining beacon to others. I would say that he reflected the love of the Beloved. He led by example, rather than by argument.
He is, by far, the finest man I ever knew.
Permit me to tell you a little of my paternal grandfather:
He was taken out of school at the age of ten, and set to work in a local coal-mine (unlawful, but who cared?).
Using the local Miners’ Institute – these were centres of learning at that time (and being a book-worm) – he became a polymath (and well versed in both Hebrew and Greek). His second great passion – Faith and Family together being his first – was music. Able to play both violin and piano, he was appointed Musical Director of the Glanselsig Amateur Operatic Society. His favourite work was Handel’s Messiah. I can see him now, dressed in his black evening suit, white shirt, black dickie-bow, conducting a full chorus and orchestra, with his white baton; with every word, every note engraved in his heart. I have his baton, but none of his talent!
In the 1920’s, a number of Italian families moved into Glamorgan and set up shops and cafes. One of these families (the Bassini’s) settled in Tynewydd (my home town, in the Rhondda).
When Italy declared war, and joined with Germany, the UK government issued an internment order against those it deemed to be ‘enemy civilians’. This included the Bassini’s. The husband (I knew him as Jack) was taken away, but his wife and children were allowed to remain in their home (they had a café and a fish and chip shop, located side-by-side).
One day, my grandfather was returning from work, only to discover a mob hurling abuse (and stones) at the Bassini’s and their home; at people they had once called friends. He stood between the mob and their target, and told them to stop, and to return to their homes. They did.
Many years later, the family’s eldest daughter (Maria) was accepted as a Carmelite nun; and my grandfather and grandmother were invited to attend her induction ceremony. A great honour.
My grandfather was a Baptist; an Elder at Blaencwm Chapel. The Elders employed the Minister.
When I was a teenager, one Minister visited my grandfather’s house. He was treated like royalty. My grandfather called him ‘Sir’. Later, I asked my grandfather why he had called this man ‘Sir’ after all, he was the Minister’s boss!
My grandfather smiled, and said: ‘I’m just an Elder. The Minister speaks the Word!’
When my grandfather died, several hundred men – of all ages – attended his funeral (women did not do so in those days). They filled the cemetery chapel, and many were weeping openly.
My grandfather was able to calm a howling mob – and to move the hearts of many – not because of any legal authority (he had none), but because of his character; because of the person he was. He lived his Faith as it was meant to be lived. A Christian would say that he reflected the love of Jesus; and that it was this that made him a shining beacon to others. I would say that he reflected the love of the Beloved. He led by example, rather than by argument.
He is, by far, the finest man I ever knew.
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Getting back to the subject .....Josephus on the Zealot rebellion.
But these zealots came at last to that degree of barbarity, as not to bestow a burial either on those slain in the city, or on those that lay along the roads; 382but as if they had made an agreement to cancel both the laws of their country and the laws of nature, and, at the same time that they defiled men with their wicked actions, they would pollute the Divinity itself also, 383they left the dead bodies to putrefy under the sun; and the same punishment was allotted to such as buried any as to those that deserted, which was no other than death; while he that granted the favor of a grave to another would presently stand in need of a grave himself. 384To say all in a word, no other gentle passion was so entirely lost among them as mercy; for what were the greatest objects of pity did most of all irritate these wretches, and they transferred their rage from the living to those that had been slain, and from the dead to the living. 385Nay, the terror was so very great, that he who survived called them that were first dead happy, as being at rest already; as did those that were under torture in the prisons, declare, that, upon this comparison, those that lay unburied were the happiest. 386These men, therefore, trampled upon all the laws of men, and laughed at the laws of God; and for the oracles of the prophets, they ridiculed them as the tricks of jugglers; 387yet did these prophets foretell many things concerning [the rewards of] virtue, and [punishments of] vice, which when these zealots violated, they occasioned the fulfilling of those very prophecies belonging to their own country: 388for there was a certain ancient oracle of those men, that the city should then be taken and the sanctuary burnt, by right of war, when a sedition should invade the Jews, and their own hand should pollute the temple of God. Now, while these zealots did not [quite] disbelieve these predictions, they made themselves the instruments of their accomplishment.
But these zealots came at last to that degree of barbarity, as not to bestow a burial either on those slain in the city, or on those that lay along the roads; 382but as if they had made an agreement to cancel both the laws of their country and the laws of nature, and, at the same time that they defiled men with their wicked actions, they would pollute the Divinity itself also, 383they left the dead bodies to putrefy under the sun; and the same punishment was allotted to such as buried any as to those that deserted, which was no other than death; while he that granted the favor of a grave to another would presently stand in need of a grave himself. 384To say all in a word, no other gentle passion was so entirely lost among them as mercy; for what were the greatest objects of pity did most of all irritate these wretches, and they transferred their rage from the living to those that had been slain, and from the dead to the living. 385Nay, the terror was so very great, that he who survived called them that were first dead happy, as being at rest already; as did those that were under torture in the prisons, declare, that, upon this comparison, those that lay unburied were the happiest. 386These men, therefore, trampled upon all the laws of men, and laughed at the laws of God; and for the oracles of the prophets, they ridiculed them as the tricks of jugglers; 387yet did these prophets foretell many things concerning [the rewards of] virtue, and [punishments of] vice, which when these zealots violated, they occasioned the fulfilling of those very prophecies belonging to their own country: 388for there was a certain ancient oracle of those men, that the city should then be taken and the sanctuary burnt, by right of war, when a sedition should invade the Jews, and their own hand should pollute the temple of God. Now, while these zealots did not [quite] disbelieve these predictions, they made themselves the instruments of their accomplishment.
