Millennialism: Truth or Heresy?

Zossima · Feb 23, 2011

In looking into prophetic writings, we are first confronted with a problem: many people have no knowledge of what a prophet is or a mistaken idea of a prophet, and many people do not understand the nature of prophecy itself. Let us look at the prophet first.
First and foremost, a prophet is a man or woman who lives a holy life and is dedicated to God. He may be a minister of God (Ezek. 1:3), a descendant of a king (Zeph. 1:1), or a simple shepherd (Amos 1:1). Whatever their position in life, nevertheless, they are holy and devoted to God. But what of their ministry?
Too often people think of prophets as more like fortune-tellers than servants of God. A prophet's work is not primarily to foretell future events; consider this statement by Jeremiah in Lamentations 2:14, "Your prophets...have not exposed your iniquity to restore your fortunes." How does a prophet expose sin? As Isaiah said, "To the law and the testimony" (8:20). The prophets reminded the people always of what is in God's Law and by this gave testimony to the people of their departure from God's will. Therefore, a prophet's primary job is to reveal or point out God's will for His people; secondarily do they then reveal the future, but that revealing of the future is to give hope to the faithful and warning to the unfaithful. Now we are approaching the nature of prophecy.
In regard to the nature of prophecy, we need to first consider that oftentimes prophets were shown visions: visions of heavenly things (Isaiah 6) or of events from a heavenly perspective (Ezekiel 8) or even a combination of these (Daniel 7:9-14). However, in all these the prophet is confronted with trying to explain a spiritual, heavenly experience in material, worldly terms the audience will understand. Therefore, we must be careful and cautious in interpreting prophecy because we are often confronted with much symbolism. What are we to do then? Let us consider another aspect of the nature of prophecy.
Someone once wrote that "prophecy is of a nature such that it is capable of many imperfect fulfillments but there is only one perfect fulfillment." Another teacher put it this way, "sometimes prophecies have an immediate but incomplete fulfillment and a distant perfect fulfillment." Does all this seem to be very complicated? It need not be so. Solomon wisely wrote, "[God] has put eternity into man's mind, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from beginning to the end" (Eccl. 3:11). In other words, when we read the prophets, we need to do so with the knowledge of our own limitations, and to recall Jeremiah's statement quoted earlier, we need to be reminded or our greatest limitation, our own sins. "But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God" (Is. 59:2). Even though one may think of himself as being as blameless as Job (Job 1:1), yet, when Job was confronted with God's heavenly glory (Job 38-41), even he had to admit his lack of knowledge and repent (Job 42:1-6). If the reading of the prophets leads one to repentance before God, then one has correctly read the prophets. And if one persists in repentance, then he or she will come to understand with Jeremiah, "The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases, His mercies never come to an end; they are new every morning; great is His faithfulness, 'The Lord is my portion,' says my soul, 'therefore I will hope in Him' " (Lam. 3:22-24).

KEYS TO A CHRISTIAN UNDERSTANDING OF THE PROPHETS

1. The rule of Israel upon the land was limited - Gen. 49:10; Matt. 21:42-44.
2. The worship of Israel in the tabernacle/temple was limited - Jer. 3:16; John 4:21-24.
3. All the land promises to Israel were completely fulfilled - Josh. 21:45, 23:14; 1 Kings 8:56
4. Therefore, the remaining promises to Israel relate to the people themselves and not to a limited land -
Gen. 9:26, 27; Is. 54:1-3; Zech. 2:1-5; John 4 :21-24; Heb. 11:13-16*, 12:18-29; 2 Pet. 3:13*
* - consider Ezek. 13:9 which was spoken to those who were still in the land of Israel: "nor will they enter
the land of Israel."
5. Christ is King NOW
a. He was born as King of Israel - Num. 24:17; Matt. 2:2.
b. He also asked for the nations (the Gentiles) as His inheritance as well - Ps. 2:7, 8; Jn 10:16, 17: 20,21.
c. He received His inheritance as Lord and King of all when He ascended to heaven - Dan. 7:13, 14; Matt.
16:28 (note: Jesus says "coming in His kingdom" as an allusion to Daniel's vision where the Son of Man
was seen "coming" to the throne in heaven; however, the disciples, unlike Daniel, would witness this
event from earth and see Him going, but His going from them was His "coming" in His humanity to the
throne and His kingdom); Acts 1:9.
d. He has established the peace and harmony of His kingdom - Is. 11:1-12; Acts 2:5, 41; 10:34-48;
Gal. 3:26-28; Eph. 2:11-22; Col. 1:13-20, 3:9-15.
e. He is at the present time ruler of the kings of the earth - Rev. 1:5.
6. The Church is the manifestation of Christ's kingdom in the world.
a. The Church is the Holy Nation, the Kingdom of God - 1 Pet. 2:9, 10; Rev. 1:6.
b. The Church is the royal priesthood of God - 1 Pet. 2:5, 10; Rev. 1:6.
c. The Church is Mount Zion, the mountain of God - Heb. 12:22.
d. The Church is heavenly Jerusalem, the city of God - Gal. 4:26; Heb. 12:22 (note: "heavenly" here
denotes that this Jerusalem is built by God rather than man and is therefore unshakable, Heb 12:28).
e. The glory of Christ and the Church - Eph.5:25-32; Rev. 21:9-22:5.
f. Therefore the promised blessings in the prophets relate to Christ and His people, the Church. Unlike
old Israel whose reign on the land came to an end (Is. 8:13-15; Matt. 21:42-44); New Israel, the
Church and her King, will never fail nor be led astray (Matt. 16:18; John 10:4, 5, 27, 28).
7. Finally, there are many in our time who often misinterpret the prophecies of the prophets because of an
erroneous interpretation of Revelation 20. They teach that Christ has not yet established His kingdom
on earth (see 5 and 6 above) and that Revelation 20 foretells a future, 1000 year reign of Christ on
earth. Therefore, they interpret many O.T. prophecies as yet to be fulfilled when in fact they are
fulfilled in Christ and His Church. On Revelation 20 consider the following points.
a. Satan has already been bound - Is. 49:24, 25; Matt. 12:28, 29; Mark 3:27; Luke 11:20-22; John
12:31, 16:11. In these Scriptures the strong man is Satan, the ruler of this fallen world; the one who
overwhelms him and takes his property (i.e., us) is Christ. The binding of Satan is not absolute (note
the absence of absolutes in the text), rather, Satan's determining to keep whole nations in darkness
has been bound so that he cannot stop the progress of the Gospel to the world nor lead the Church
astray, although he still retains his power to tempt (cf. Matt. 24:14; Eph 6:10-12).
b. Numbers in apocalyptic writings such as Revelation are symbolic rather than literal, therefore "1000"
is symbolic rather than literal. "1000" signifies blessedness, mercy, the full extent of God's oversight
and rule - Ex. 20:6; Deut. 7:9; Job 9:3, Ps 50:10; Song of Solomon 8:11; Is. 7:23; Jer. 32:18.
c. The first resurrection is Christ's resurrection and our participation in it through baptism - Matt.
27:52, 53; John 5: 24, 25; Rom. 6:3, 4.
d. Consider the three points immediately above as well as earlier points and it will become plain that
Christ's kingdom is NOW, He is king NOW, all those baptized are raptured (translated) into His kingdom
NOW (Col. 1:13-14), therefore, the millennium is NOW.
Now for anyone who thinks I have presented all the evidence I have that the millennium is now, you better
think again. I have only presented a fraction of the evidence that His kingdom is NOW.

the sinner, Zossima YES, A FUTURE MILLENNIUM ON EARTH IS HERESY.

Devolution · Feb 24, 2011

the sinner, Zossima YES, A FUTURE MILLENNIUM ON EARTH IS HERESY.[/quote]

It is an endless struggle that continues. We are faced with eyes that do not see and ears that do not hear. Accusations of heresy spew forth from inner spirits eager to bite. In the process, exposing that which is within the accusers to manifest for our testimony before the Lord. I thank Him for allowing us to be mocked in His Name.

When Christ returns He will resurrect the saints into spirit like the angels.
The dead Jews who were under the old covenant, the good figs, these will be raised (not resurrected) but raised in the flesh to eat Christs flesh in the greatly expanded kingdom of Israel. For to be changed into spirit, one first needs to eat the flesh of Christ, and that flesh is the Spiritual Word (John 6:63). This Word will grow in them and will be used to change them into Spirit at the 2nd resurrection. See Romans 8:11 for the confirmation of this process.

It is tiring pointing out scripture over & over that clearly has not been fulfilled, but no matter how hard we try, if that accusing spirit within the accusers refuses to submit to Him, then we can talk until we are blue in the face, for when God blocks, no man can undo it.

Please, all seekers, read Zechariah ch14. I will only give ONE example of the many examples in ch 14, So note v18. This is while Christ is ruling the earth....notice the HEATHEN are STILL alive !!! But wait...the church taught are telling us there are NO MORE UNBELIEVERS at this point !!! Now behold the error. It is so simple, yet understanding is still unreachable to so many. It is the SPIRIT of the CHURCHES that are corrupted....the WARNINGS began 2000 odd years ago....we find them in the letters of revelation to the churches. Those very churhes of Turkey that went to Rome to join those very same persecutors of the true church...forming mainstream religion as we know it today...those persecutors of Christs true church...

Are HEATHEN saved? NO, heathen are not saved, so then, we know the unsaved are NOT changed into spirit, for only the believers are rewarded thus. So now, what is the opposite of spirit? Well it is FLESH. So, there is a spiritual state (resurrected saints) & non spiritual state (heathen & NEW incoming flesh believers) even when Christ is ruling.

It is AFTER the millennium that ALL men are changed into SPIRIT forever more...WHEN the Father comes down to dwell amongst ALL His children. THEN there is no more FLESH....FUTURE.

To say Christ is ruling NOW is error. Christ is right now sitting on the right hand of God. His enemies are still in power, they are not YET made His footstool. This is YET to take place....So WHEN will Christ begin His reign?

Matthew 25:31
WHEN the Son of man shall COME in His GLORY, and ALL the ANGELS with Him, THEN shall He SIT upon the THRONE of HIS GLORY.

So we see ever so plainly....Christ BEGINS His RULE AT HIS 2nd coming. THEN He sits on HIS OWN throne....Satan is still ruling even now...Has Jesus returned yet? NO, of course not.

I will keep it simple, for who can hear it anyway?

Matthew 19:28
Verily I say unto you, that ye which have followed Me (APOSTLES)
in the regeneration (resurrection at His 2nd coming) WHEN the Son of Man SHALL sit in the THRONE of His GLORY
ye (Apostles) ALSO shall sit upon 12 thrones,
judging the 12 tribes of Israel.

NEAR FUTURE....

zone · Feb 24, 2011

MILLENNIALISM DEBUNKED.

i am aware that some people prefer a line or two of a person's personal thoughts, dreams, prophecies, gingerbread cookie recipies.... over longer studies of issues - this post is not for you.

~

i am aware that others, though they claim to have been self-taught (of course by The Holy Spirit

) are actually directed into dispensational theology by their pesuppositions, and that they have indeed been "taught"/influenced (and i find are often plagerizing) absurd TEMPORALLY-minded teachings of a Golden Age (which is actually a jewish fable)...more on this later.

this fable was injected into Christian teachings most recently by the judaizers' stooge Scofield.

but, the dispies have so much invested in the warped teaching which is leading multitudes into the LIE (2 Thess 2) - that CHRIST HAS NOT FULFILLED HIS MESSIANIC PROMISES, and must come again (twice more?) to establish an earthly reign for jews who have to "get right" with God through a Temple System, that they may never settle down and think critically.

i pray they do come out of it - some have.

in any case. here's another

very SIMPLE, and easy to read REFUTATION OF THE WHOLE CONCEPT of a thousand year reaign on this earth AFTER THE SECOND COMING (which is to raise the dead and bring the White Throne Judgment, taking us then into THE WORLD TO COME)

Amillennialism
by Prof. Robert B. Strimple

I. Christ: The Theme of O.T. Prophecy

A. Premillennial's Literal Hermeneutic: Dispensational premillennialists regard the as yet unfulfilled OT prophesies given to Israel under the old covenant as having a literal fulfillment in the millennium. This will entail a return to the [SIZE=-1]Old Covenant[/SIZE], including:

1. Jerusalem as capital city of the kingdom
2. The temple rebuilt
3. A reestablished priesthood
4. Animal sacrifices again offered
5. Christ entering the temple each Sabbath by the eastern gate while the priests offer sacrifices (Ez 46)
6.Observation of dietary laws
7. Circumcision (Ez 44:23, 9)
B. Is Such A Literal Hermeneutic The Correct One?
1. ALL EVANGELICALS AGREE that the Old Testament sacrifices, feasts, and ceremonies were "teaching tools pointing forward to the work of Christ" (86)
2. WHY, THEN, MAY NOT the promised land, Jerusalem, the temple, and the nation of Israel have a like significance, pointing the way toward the new covenant? 3. TYPOLOGICAL INTERPRETATION DOES NOT DENY THE IMPORTANCE OF THE TYPES: The types do not, themselves, lack reality. Yet their relation to the NT is one of shadow/reality. Once the reality has come to pass in its fullness, the shadow passes away.

C. How Does The NT Interpret These OT Figures? Answer: Typologically
1. CHRIST IS THE TRUE ISRAEL, AS ARE THOSE WHO ARE IN HIM
a. ISAIAH’S SERVANT SONGS HAVE A DOUBLE REFERENT that has long baffled Jewish commentators. On the one hand, they refer to Israel, God’s chosen one and servant (41:8-9; 44:1-2, 21; 45:4; 49:3). On the other, they seem also to refer to some individual (42:1-4). These prophesies are interpreted by the NT as referring to Christ (Mt 8:17 and Acts 8:30-35)
b. MATTHEW (2:15) SEES A DOUBLE REFERENT IN HOSEA 11:1 ("Out of Egypt I called my son")[SIZE=-1][/SIZE] c. PAUL IDENTIFIES CHRIST , NOT PHYSICAL ISRAEL, AS ABRAHAM’S SEED (Gal 3:16). Gal 3:7 and Rom 4:11, 16, moreover, identify the church as Abraham’s offspring.
d. HENCEFORTH, WE WHO ARE IN CHRIST ARE THE TRUE ISRAEL: Gal 3:26-29, Rom 2:28-29, and Phil 3:3
e. THE OLD COVENANT IS OBSOLETE, HAVING BEEN SUPERSEDED BY THE NEW: Heb 8:8-12 identifies the new covenant with Israel (Jer 31:33-34) with the covenant instituted by Christ with the church. Most importantly, Heb 8:13 declares the old covenant obsolete and passing away. This makes impossible the dispensational view of Ez 40-48 as a reinstitution of temple sacrifice. f. UPSHOT: The OT did not see how its own prophesies were to be fulfilled - indeed, it could not prior to Christ. The NT authors were able to interpret the OT in the light of His coming of the new covenant that He instituted. So should we.

2. THE LAND OF PROMISE A TYPE OF A NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH
a. LITERALISM WOULD DICTATE THAT THE JEWS WERE PROMISED CANAAN ONLY: Gen 17:8
b. THE NT VIEW THIS PROMISE AS INVOLVING THE WORLD, EVEN THE UNIVERSE: Rom 4:13, Heb 11:9-10, 13-16, and 2 Pet 3:3 c. UPSHOT: Amillennialism does ignore prophesies regarding the restoration and renewal of Israel. But it places them in the context of the new heaven and earth (Is 65:17; 66:22; 2 Pet 3:13; Rev 21:1) and a final redemption that is cosmic in scope.

3. THE HOLY CITY A TYPE OF THE PRESENCE OF GOD HIMSELF
a. Heb 12:18-24, Gal 4:25-26, and Rev 14:1 (cf. Rev 4:1-6)
b. THE DISTINCTION, "EARTHLY vs. HEAVENLY," IS THAT OF "COPY vs. REAL" (cf. Heb 9:23-24)
c. SPIRITUAL REALITIES ARE AS REAL AS THE TYPES TO WHICH THEY ARE COMPARED: To refer the OT types to their ultimate counterparts is not to engage in "spiritualizing" or "allegorical" exegesis that somehow minimizes their significance.
d. WHAT IS THE REFORMATION PRINCIPLE OF THE LITERAL INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE? It is interpreting Scripture in the light of Scripture.
e. THIS IS PRECISELY THE SORT OF EXEGESIS IN WHICH THE NT WRITERS ENGAGE. They interpret the elements of the old covenant in the light of the new (progressive revelation). So should we. f. The prophesies of Is 2:2-4 and Micah 4:1-3 about "many peoples" from "all nations" streaming to Jerusalem are being fulfilled now as men and women of every tribe on the face of the earth call upon the name of Zion’s King and become citizens of ‘the Jerusalem that is above." (93)

4. THE KINGDOM OF DAVID IS SEEN BY THE NT AS A TYPE OF A PRESENT AND ETERNAL (NOT FUTURE AND PROVISIONAL) KINGDOM
a. PETER SEES GOD’S PROMISE TO DAVID AS ALREADY HAVING BEEN FULFILLED: 2 Sam 7:16 and Acts 2:30-31
b. JAMES SEES THE RESTORATION OF DAVID’S THRONE, AND ITS BROAD SCOPE, AS HAVING ALREADY BEEN FULFILLED: Amos 9:11-12 and Acts 15:13-21 c. IF IT WERE NOT JAMES WHO HAD SAID THIS, DISPENSATIONALISTS WOULD MAKE THE CHARGE THAT THIS IS A DANGEROUS "SPIRITUALIZING" OF OT PROPHESY

5. THE TEMPLE OF GOD A TYPE OF CHRIST
a. THE PROPHETS SPEAK OF FUTURE WORSHIP OF GOD IN TERMS OF THE TEMPLE
b. YET CHRIST IDENTIFIES HIMSELF AS THE TEMPLE: Mt 12:6, Jn 2:19-22, Jn 4:10, 14 (cf. Ez 47:1), and Rev 21:22 c. UPSHOT: PROPHESY REQUIRES NO FUTURE, LITERAL REBUILT TEMPLE
II. The Second Coming of Christ: The Grand Finale of Redemptive History
A. THE OT DOES NOT TEACH A FUTURE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM
B. THE NT GOES EVEN FARTHER, RULING OUT A MILLENNIAL KINGDOM. WHY? THE END TIME EVENTS WILL HAPPEN ALL AT ONCE.
1. THE CONCURRENCE OF THESE EVENTS 2. DISPENSATIONALISM ARTIFICIALLY SEPARATES THESE EVENTS IN ORDER TO FIT IN A MILLENNIUM

C. WHAT THE SCRIPTURES TEACH
1. A SINGLE RESURRECTION OF THE JUST AND UNJUST: Jn 5:28-29, Acts 24:15. References to the resurrection of the just (Lk 14:14, 20:14, Phil 3:11 and 1 Thess 4:16) have been taken to imply two resurrections. But nowhere in Scripture, except Rev 20:4-6, are two resurrections mentioned. Amillennialists argue that the "first resurrection" is a metaphor for something other than physical resurrection, and that we must abide by the clear teaching of the other passages that there is one resurrection.
2. ONE RETURN OF CHRIST, ONE JUDGMENT
2 Thess 1:5-10 speaks of final, eternal punishment of the wicked and simultaneous relief given the saints, both occurring at Christ’s return. Hence, Christ’s coming for his saints (the rapture), and his coming in judgment upon the rest of the world, are one and the same event.

3. THE RESURRECTION/GLORIFICATION OF THE BODY, JUDGMENT, AND RENEWAL OF ALL CREATION AS SIMULTANEOUS EVENTS (NO INTERVENING MILLENNIUM)
a. Rom 8:17-23 gives no hint of a 1000+ year gap between the saints’ resurrection and the final restoration of all things.
b. 2 Pet 3:3-14 identifies Christ’s coming (4, 10), the judgment ("day of the Lord" in vv. 7 and 10-12), and the renewal of creation (13) as contemporaneous events. c. 1 Cor 15:22-26 indicates the same.
III. Two Passages Considered Crucial by Millennialists
A. ROMANS 11 (esp. v. 26: "And so all Israel will be saved")
1. EVEN IF A FUTURE CONVERSION OF ISRAEL PREDICTED, THIS IS NOT PROOF OF PREMILLENNIALISM
2. NOWHERE IN ROM 9-11 DOES PAUL SPEAK OF A RETURN OF THE JEWS TO THEIR LAND OR AN EARTHLY REIGN OF CHRIST FROM JERUSALEM
3. BUT DOES PAUL EVEN PREDICT A FUTURE CONVERSION OF NATIONAL ISRAEL?
a. THE CONTEXT OF ROM 9-11: Paul is wrestling with the issue of how the Messiah, foreseen in the OT as a great blessing to the Jews, could have been rejected by them.
b. ROM 9:1-5 ACKNOWLEDGES THAT ISRAEL WAS CHOSEN BY GOD AND POSSESSED THE HIGHEST SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS
c. ROM 9:6-7 REJECTS THE FALSE IMPLICATION THAT GOD HAS BEEN UNTRUE TO HIS PURPOSE FOR ISRAEL. His explanation: not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
d. ROM 9:8 - 10:21: THERE FOLLOWS A SERIES OF ILLUSTRATIONS that "mere physical descent from Abraham did not guarantee the possession of the blessings promised to Abraham."
(1) Ishmael (9:8-9)
(2) Esau (9:10-18)
(3) In 9:24-26, Paul recalls that God told Hosea that He would choose others who were not his people to be "my people." They would be called "sons of the living God." (Hosea 2:23, 1:10)
(4) In 29:27-29 he cites Isaiah 29:16 and 45:9 as evidence that not all of Israel would be saved, but only a remnant.
(5) In 10:19 he cites Deut 32:21 as evidence that God would make Israel envious "by those who are not a nation." (6) In 10:20-21 he cites Is 65:1-2 in defense of God’s present choice of the Gentiles.

e. ROM 11:1-10 REAFFIRMS THAT GOD HAS NOT REJECTED HIS PEOPLE: A BELIEVING REMNANT REMAINS
(1) Paul cites himself as an example of a believing Jew (11:1)
(2) Israel’s situation is no different than in Elijah’s day when a remnant was chosen. (3) UPSHOT: GOD HAS BEEN TRUE TO HIS PURPOSE IN ELECTION, FOR ELECTION IS NOT COEXTENSIVE WITH THE WHOLE NATION. (Rom 11:7)

f. ROM 11:11, TRADITIONALLY VIEWED AS A TURNING POINT IN PAUL’S ARGUMENT, IS NOT.
(1) Prior to 11:11, Paul stated that God’s rejection of the Jews is not total. After 11:11 he seems to say that neither is it final. Rom 11:12, 15, 25-26 foresee widespread conversion of Jews.
(2) YET THIS CONVERSION OF JEWS IS NOT FUTURE - IT IS CONTEMPORANEOUS WITH THAT OF THE GENTILES, AND WILL BE TO THE END
(a) "Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you." (11:31)
(b) I.e., Paul conceives of the Jews’ conversion occurring in the present as a result of the Gentiles’ conversion, which incites them to envy. Cf. 10:19. (c) While this did not happen in Paul’s day, the process of Gentile conversion and Jewish response will continue until "the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved" (11:25-26)

(3) CONCLUSION: WHEN PAUL TALKS ABOUT THE CONVERSION OF ISRAEL, HE IS NOT SPEAKING OF A FUTURE CONVERSION AFTER THAT OF THE GENTILES, BUT A PRESENT ONE IN RESPONSE TO THE GENTILES.B. REV 20:1-10
1. PRELIMINARY CAVEATS
a. AMILLENNIALISTS HAVE A HIGH VIEW OF SCRIPTURE: They "agree that if a truth is taught with unmistakable clarity in Scripture, it is to be believed - even if it is taught in just one verse." (119)
b. THE QUESTION IS: Is the millennium clearly taught in this passage? c. AMILLENNIALISM CLAIMS A LITERAL INTERPRETATION: "Amillennialists want to interpret Revelation 20 in a way that is consistent with the rest of the Scriptures," and in so doing follow the principle that "the less clear, more difficult portions of the Bible are to be interpreted in the light of the more clear portions, the poetry in the light of the prose, the figurative in the light of the literal." (119)

2. THE EXEGESIS OF THE PASSAGE
a. NOTHING IN IT GIVES "ANY HINT THAT IT IS TO BE CONNECTED WITH THOSE OT PROPHECIES THAT SPEAK OF A COMING ERA OF NATIONAL GLORY FOR ISRAEL"
b. THE CHRONOLOGY OF REV 19 AND 20 IS UNCLEAR.
(1) REV 19 SEEMS TO BRING US DOWN TO THE END OF THE AGE, the second coming of Christ, the final battle, and judgment on the forces of evil.
(2) IS IT POSSIBLE THAT REV 20 TAKES US BACK TO THE FIRST COMING OF CHRIST AND THE BEGINNING OF THE CHURCH AGE? (3) SUCH DISCONTINUOUS CHRONOLOGY OCCURS ELSEWHERE. Rev 11:18 brings us to the end of the age ("the time has come for judging the dead"), and 12:1 takes us back to its beginning with its figurative account of the birth of Christ and his ascension.

c. REV 20:1-10 HAS TWO VISIONS LINKED BY THE PHRASE "A THOUSAND YEARS"
(1) THE SCENE OF THE ONE (20:1-3, 7-10) IS EARTH: The vision begins: "And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven." It relates Satan’s binding and casting into the Abyss for 1,000 years "to keep him from deceiving the nations." After the 1,000 years he is released, gathers his forces for a final showdown, and is defeated by fire falling from heaven.
(2) THE SCENE OF THE OTHER (20:4-6) IS HEAVEN: It, too, begins, "And I saw" - martyred souls reigning on thrones with Christ. This recalls John’s earlier vision of Christ on his heavenly throne (Rev 4-5) and his promise, "To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne" (Rev 3:21) (3) UPSHOT: CHRIST’S MILLENNIAL REIGN WITH THE SAINTS IS A HEAVENLY REIGN

d. SATAN’S BINDING IN REV 20 IS AN ALLUSION TO THE EVENTS OF REV 12
(1) REV 12 DESCRIBES A RESTRAINT PLACED ON SATAN AT CHRIST’S FIRST COMING. Satan wanted to destroy the woman and her child, but could not. Accompanying these events was a heavenly battle in which Satan was cast down from heaven. Might Rev 20 be a recaptitulation of his? In both places Satan is "cast down" by an angel or angels.
(2) THE FIRST COMING OF CHRIST ELSEWHERE DESCRIBED AS A DECISIVE VICTORY THAT CURTAILS SATAN’S ACTIVITY
(a) MT 12:28-29: Jesus described his own mission by a parable. He had come to bind (deo - same word as Rev 20:2) the strong man and carry off of what had been in his possession.
(b) JN 12:31: "Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out (the same word, ballo, is used in Rev 20:3) (c) CF. COL 2:15, HEB 2:14-15 and 1 JN 3:8

(3) EVIDENCE THAT REV 20:1 IS A FIGURATIVE REPRESENTATION OF CHRIST’S VICTORY OVER SATAN AT THE CROSS
(a) AT THE CROSS SATAN WAS BOUND - BUT NOT ABSOLUTELY. Similarly, Rev. 20 says that Satan is bound, but adds: that he might deceive the nations no longer. The word, ethn ("nations") was used by the Jews to designate the Gentiles. Hence, Rev 20 links Satan’s binding with the arrival of salvation for the Gentiles in the present age.
i) JESUS DID COMMISSION THE MISSION TO THE GENTILES (Acts 26:17-18) ii) OUR STRUGGLE WITH EVIL POWERS (Eph 6:11-12) IS NOT INCONSISTENT WITH THEIR BEING BOUND: Jude 6, 2 Pet 2:4, Rev 9:14 all speak of the fallen angels being bound, awaiting punishment. But this does not mean that they are not active.

e. REVELATION ALWAYS REFERS TO THE BATTLE (ho polemos): Rev 20:8, 16:14, 16, 19:19
(1) THE BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON (Rev 16 and 19) IS THE BATTLE OF GOG AND MAGOG (Rev 20) (2) IF REV 19 AND 20 DESCRIBE THE SAME BATTLE, THEN THE EVENTS OF REV 20:1-10 RECAPITULATE THE TIME BETWEEN CHRIST’S ADVENTS.

f. WHO ARE THE "SOULS" REIGNING WITH CHRIST IN REV 20:4?
(1) THESE "SOULS" ARE NOT YET RESURRECTED
(a) "SOUL" CAN MEAN "PERSON." IF SO, THEN JOHN’S VISION WOULD BE OF SAINTS IN THEIR RESURRECTED STATE ON THE EARTH. E.g., Acts 2:41
(b) THE CONTEXT DOES NOT INDICATE THIS, HOWEVER.
i) THE INTERMEDIATE STATE IS INDICATED BY THE CONTRAST OF SOUL WITH BODY
ii) THE SCENE SEEMS TO BE HEAVEN, NOT EARTH: the setting of Rev 20:4 appears to be that of Rev 4-5, and 20:4 appears to the fulfillment of Christ’s promise in 3:21. iii) THROUGHOUT REVELATION THE THRONE OF CHRIST AND HIS PEOPLE IS ALWAYS IN HEAVEN: 1:4, 3:21, 4:5, 6:16, 7:9ff, 8:3, 12:5, 14:3, 16:17, 19:4-5, 20:11, 21:5, 22:1,3

(c) WHAT, THEN, IS MEANT BY "FIRST RESURRECTION"?
i) STRIMPLE IDENTIFIES IT WITH THE BELIEVER’S RECEPTION INTO HEAVEN: "The first resurrection occurs when he or she departs this life and is immediately ushered into the presence of Christ to reign with him. The second resurrection will be bodily at Christ’s second coming" (127)
ii) OTHER AMILLENNIALISTS IDENTIFY IT WITH REGENERATION
a) 1 Jn 3:14, Eph 2:4-6, and Col 2:13 speak of Christians as already having "come to life" in Christ. b) Eph 2:6, 1 Cor 3:21-22, and Col 3:1-2 speak of them as already spiritually enthroned with him in heaven.

g. WHAT IS THE MEANING OF "1,000"?
(1) MOST AMILLENNIALISTS THINK THAT IT SYMBOLIZES THE COMPLETION OF THE AGE ("10" and "3" are numbers of perfection, 103 the ultimate such symbol).[SIZE=-1][/SIZE] (2) STRIMPLE THINKS THAT IT IS USED TO ENCOURAGE BELEAGUERED CHRISTIANS, stressing the brevity of their present suffering in relation to their glorious reign to come.
[End]

Dr. Robert Strimple is Professor of Systematic Theology at Westminster Theological Seminary in Escondido, California. He was the founding dean, and the first president of Westminster in California.

~ for those who are not trapped in delusion, or so proud they have closed their minds and refuse to consider any other possibly concerning eschatology (WHICH MUST BE CHRIST-CENTERED AS IS ALL OF SCRIPTURE), HERE'S A hotlink WHICH COVERS ALL OF THE ridiculous twisting and contortions that have to be performed in order to make dispensatonal THEORY work.

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology.html

~ i'm interested in discussion with folks who have figured this out

(which shouldn't be hard since its what the Bible teaches).

zone

Zossima · Feb 24, 2011

devolution: you haven't debunked anything I said and furthermore I would ask you to look at Col. 1:13, 14. How can anyone have been translated into the kingdom of His dear Son, unless His Son is already in His kingdom? How could Jesus say "My kingdom IS not of this world" unless His kingdom already IS? You are misunderstanding the verses you bring up simply because you refuse to acknowledge the truth. And just in case it hasn't been pointed out to you yet, there is the inspired meaning of Scripture and then there is your understanding of the text and the two are not necessarily the same. There is a God and you ain't it.

the sinner, Zossima

Zossima · Feb 24, 2011

zone: can you accept that the "Jerusalem above" has an ongoing and historical presence on earth, that the Church is not merely some amorphous, spiritual, invisible group but is as Paul called it "the BODY of Christ?" If Paul had meant that the Church was simply spiritual in nature, then he wouldn't have called it "the Body of Christ." Consider these three points concerning the Church: "You are the light of the world, a city set on a hill cannot be hidden;" 1. the Church is always visible in history. " On this rock I will build My church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it;" 2. the Church never dies or is overcome. "My sheep hear My voice and the voice of another they will not follow for they do not know the voice of a stranger, but will flee from him;" 3. the Church is never led astray. If New Israel under the New Covenant is not in a better condition than Old Israel under the Old Covenant, if the Church is just as liable to err as Old Israel, then how can it be said as the book of Hebrews so eloquently points out that the New Covenant is superior to the Old Covenant? Instead of trying to crucify Christ afresh by crucifying the Church, why aren't more Christians trying to demonstrate the faithfulness of the Church instead of trying to prove themselves faithful?

the sinner, Zossima

Devolution · Feb 24, 2011

Zossima said:

Hello Zossima,

We are already in His kingdom IN SPIRIT by the renewing of our minds (grafted into the womb of Zion awaiting birth)....and at His coming, this is when we will be in His kingdom in our new spirit bodies...Jesus Christ is not of the kingdom of this world, and neither are we...for we await our coming homeland..the kingdom of God on earth.(Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, ON EARTH as it is in heaven) and we will be kings and priests with Christ teaching the world for a thousand years. That is what He meant by, "Not of this world", that His kingdom is a Godly Kingdom FROM Heaven coming down to EARTH...hence: not of this world.

So this Kingdom Christ speaks of is a prophecy to yet to be fulfilled...though will be soon. Behold, I GO TO PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU....which of course means it is not yet finished..BUT..is being prepared...that is, that it is COMING...WILL BE ESTABLISHED...THEN this is fulfilled: Thy will be done, on earth, as it is in heaven.

Regards
Devolution.

zone · Feb 24, 2011

New Jerusalem

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

John of Patmos describes the New Jerusalem in the Book of Revelation in the Christian Bible, and so the New Jerusalem holds an important place in Christian eschatology and Christian mysticism, and has also influenced Christian philosophy and Christian theology.

Such a renewal of Jerusalem, if a reconstruction, is an important theme in Judaism, Christianity, and the Bahá'í Faith. Renewed Jerusalem bears as its motto the words Ad librum (Latin: "as by the book".)

The Book of Revelation

The term New Jerusalem occurs twice in the New Testament, in verses 3:12 and 21:2 of the Book of Revelation. A large portion of the final two chapters of Revelation deals with John of Patmos' vision of the New Jerusalem. He describes the New Jerusalem as "'the bride, the wife of the Lamb'".

AFTER John witnesses the new heaven and a new earth "that no longer has any sea",

an angel takes him "in the Spirit" to a vantage point on "a great and high mountain" to see the New Jerusalem's descent.

The enormous city comes out of heaven down to the NEW EARTH. !!!!

John's elaborate description of the New Jerusalem retains many features of the Garden of Eden and the paradise garden, such as rivers, a square shape, a wall, and the Tree of Life.

Scotth1960 · Feb 24, 2011

Zossima said:

In looking into prophetic writings, we are first confronted with a problem: many people have no knowledge of what a prophet is or a mistaken idea of a prophet, and many people do not understand the nature of prophecy itself. Let us look at the prophet first.
First and foremost, a prophet is a man or woman who lives a holy life and is dedicated to God. He may be a minister of God (Ezek. 1:3), a descendant of a king (Zeph. 1:1), or a simple shepherd (Amos 1:1). Whatever their position in life, nevertheless, they are holy and devoted to God. But what of their ministry?
Too often people think of prophets as more like fortune-tellers than servants of God. A prophet's work is not primarily to foretell future events; consider this statement by Jeremiah in Lamentations 2:14, "Your prophets...have not exposed your iniquity to restore your fortunes." How does a prophet expose sin? As Isaiah said, "To the law and the testimony" (8:20). The prophets reminded the people always of what is in God's Law and by this gave testimony to the people of their departure from God's will. Therefore, a prophet's primary job is to reveal or point out God's will for His people; secondarily do they then reveal the future, but that revealing of the future is to give hope to the faithful and warning to the unfaithful. Now we are approaching the nature of prophecy.
In regard to the nature of prophecy, we need to first consider that oftentimes prophets were shown visions: visions of heavenly things (Isaiah 6) or of events from a heavenly perspective (Ezekiel 8) or even a combination of these (Daniel 7:9-14). However, in all these the prophet is confronted with trying to explain a spiritual, heavenly experience in material, worldly terms the audience will understand. Therefore, we must be careful and cautious in interpreting prophecy because we are often confronted with much symbolism. What are we to do then? Let us consider another aspect of the nature of prophecy.
Someone once wrote that "prophecy is of a nature such that it is capable of many imperfect fulfillments but there is only one perfect fulfillment." Another teacher put it this way, "sometimes prophecies have an immediate but incomplete fulfillment and a distant perfect fulfillment." Does all this seem to be very complicated? It need not be so. Solomon wisely wrote, "[God] has put eternity into man's mind, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from beginning to the end" (Eccl. 3:11). In other words, when we read the prophets, we need to do so with the knowledge of our own limitations, and to recall Jeremiah's statement quoted earlier, we need to be reminded or our greatest limitation, our own sins. "But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God" (Is. 59:2). Even though one may think of himself as being as blameless as Job (Job 1:1), yet, when Job was confronted with God's heavenly glory (Job 38-41), even he had to admit his lack of knowledge and repent (Job 42:1-6). If the reading of the prophets leads one to repentance before God, then one has correctly read the prophets. And if one persists in repentance, then he or she will come to understand with Jeremiah, "The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases, His mercies never come to an end; they are new every morning; great is His faithfulness, 'The Lord is my portion,' says my soul, 'therefore I will hope in Him' " (Lam. 3:22-24).

KEYS TO A CHRISTIAN UNDERSTANDING OF THE PROPHETS

1. The rule of Israel upon the land was limited - Gen. 49:10; Matt. 21:42-44.
2. The worship of Israel in the tabernacle/temple was limited - Jer. 3:16; John 4:21-24.
3. All the land promises to Israel were completely fulfilled - Josh. 21:45, 23:14; 1 Kings 8:56
4. Therefore, the remaining promises to Israel relate to the people themselves and not to a limited land -
Gen. 9:26, 27; Is. 54:1-3; Zech. 2:1-5; John 4 :21-24; Heb. 11:13-16*, 12:18-29; 2 Pet. 3:13*
* - consider Ezek. 13:9 which was spoken to those who were still in the land of Israel: "nor will they enter
the land of Israel."
5. Christ is King NOW
a. He was born as King of Israel - Num. 24:17; Matt. 2:2.
b. He also asked for the nations (the Gentiles) as His inheritance as well - Ps. 2:7, 8; Jn 10:16, 17: 20,21.
c. He received His inheritance as Lord and King of all when He ascended to heaven - Dan. 7:13, 14; Matt.
16:28 (note: Jesus says "coming in His kingdom" as an allusion to Daniel's vision where the Son of Man
was seen "coming" to the throne in heaven; however, the disciples, unlike Daniel, would witness this
event from earth and see Him going, but His going from them was His "coming" in His humanity to the
throne and His kingdom); Acts 1:9.
d. He has established the peace and harmony of His kingdom - Is. 11:1-12; Acts 2:5, 41; 10:34-48;
Gal. 3:26-28; Eph. 2:11-22; Col. 1:13-20, 3:9-15.
e. He is at the present time ruler of the kings of the earth - Rev. 1:5.
6. The Church is the manifestation of Christ's kingdom in the world.
a. The Church is the Holy Nation, the Kingdom of God - 1 Pet. 2:9, 10; Rev. 1:6.
b. The Church is the royal priesthood of God - 1 Pet. 2:5, 10; Rev. 1:6.
c. The Church is Mount Zion, the mountain of God - Heb. 12:22.
d. The Church is heavenly Jerusalem, the city of God - Gal. 4:26; Heb. 12:22 (note: "heavenly" here
denotes that this Jerusalem is built by God rather than man and is therefore unshakable, Heb 12:28).
e. The glory of Christ and the Church - Eph.5:25-32; Rev. 21:9-22:5.
f. Therefore the promised blessings in the prophets relate to Christ and His people, the Church. Unlike
old Israel whose reign on the land came to an end (Is. 8:13-15; Matt. 21:42-44); New Israel, the
Church and her King, will never fail nor be led astray (Matt. 16:18; John 10:4, 5, 27, 28).
7. Finally, there are many in our time who often misinterpret the prophecies of the prophets because of an
erroneous interpretation of Revelation 20. They teach that Christ has not yet established His kingdom
on earth (see 5 and 6 above) and that Revelation 20 foretells a future, 1000 year reign of Christ on
earth. Therefore, they interpret many O.T. prophecies as yet to be fulfilled when in fact they are
fulfilled in Christ and His Church. On Revelation 20 consider the following points.
a. Satan has already been bound - Is. 49:24, 25; Matt. 12:28, 29; Mark 3:27; Luke 11:20-22; John
12:31, 16:11. In these Scriptures the strong man is Satan, the ruler of this fallen world; the one who
overwhelms him and takes his property (i.e., us) is Christ. The binding of Satan is not absolute (note
the absence of absolutes in the text), rather, Satan's determining to keep whole nations in darkness
has been bound so that he cannot stop the progress of the Gospel to the world nor lead the Church
astray, although he still retains his power to tempt (cf. Matt. 24:14; Eph 6:10-12).
b. Numbers in apocalyptic writings such as Revelation are symbolic rather than literal, therefore "1000"
is symbolic rather than literal. "1000" signifies blessedness, mercy, the full extent of God's oversight
and rule - Ex. 20:6; Deut. 7:9; Job 9:3, Ps 50:10; Song of Solomon 8:11; Is. 7:23; Jer. 32:18.
c. The first resurrection is Christ's resurrection and our participation in it through baptism - Matt.
27:52, 53; John 5: 24, 25; Rom. 6:3, 4.
d. Consider the three points immediately above as well as earlier points and it will become plain that
Christ's kingdom is NOW, He is king NOW, all those baptized are raptured (translated) into His kingdom
NOW (Col. 1:13-14), therefore, the millennium is NOW.
Now for anyone who thinks I have presented all the evidence I have that the millennium is now, you better
think again. I have only presented a fraction of the evidence that His kingdom is NOW.

the sinner, Zossima YES, A FUTURE MILLENNIUM ON EARTH IS HERESY.

Dear Zossima, AMEN. People who read Zossima need to believe what he says. His testimony is honest, truthful, and unbiased. He has obtained grace from God to preach the Gospel. He says much truth in few words. Premillennialism is an era. The Church Age we are in now is the millennium. Zossima knows what few people today want to remember, that an early Church council, in 381 AD, already refuted chiliasm. And so Zossima's teaching is based on the same tradition and same Holy Spirit Who inspired this Holy Council in Constantinople in 381 AD. God bless you, Zossima, for sharing words of wisdom with us. May God grant you many years. God have mercy on us all. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

zone · Feb 24, 2011

Scotth1960 said:

Dear Zossima & Scotth, AMEN.

if people would just consider this, the confusion would disappear like the toxic smoke it is.
~ zone

(there is a deadly reason for this teaching to be so pervasive...why is this so hard to see?)

Red33 · Feb 24, 2011

Zone and others are you are SOOOOOOOOO way off base on the 1,000 yr. millennial reign of Christ, that I had to come here and tell you that as a fellow citizen with the saints and of the household of God. You are saying things that do not edify the saints with truth and do not belong in the household of God. As a brother in Christ, cut it out or you won't be allowed in the house and you will miss all the good food that has been prepared. lol

Scotth1960 · Feb 24, 2011

Zossima said:

In looking into prophetic writings, we are first confronted with a problem: many people have no knowledge of what a prophet is or a mistaken idea of a prophet, and many people do not understand the nature of prophecy itself. Let us look at the prophet first.
First and foremost, a prophet is a man or woman who lives a holy life and is dedicated to God. He may be a minister of God (Ezek. 1:3), a descendant of a king (Zeph. 1:1), or a simple shepherd (Amos 1:1). Whatever their position in life, nevertheless, they are holy and devoted to God. But what of their ministry?
Too often people think of prophets as more like fortune-tellers than servants of God. A prophet's work is not primarily to foretell future events; consider this statement by Jeremiah in Lamentations 2:14, "Your prophets...have not exposed your iniquity to restore your fortunes." How does a prophet expose sin? As Isaiah said, "To the law and the testimony" (8:20). The prophets reminded the people always of what is in God's Law and by this gave testimony to the people of their departure from God's will. Therefore, a prophet's primary job is to reveal or point out God's will for His people; secondarily do they then reveal the future, but that revealing of the future is to give hope to the faithful and warning to the unfaithful. Now we are approaching the nature of prophecy.
In regard to the nature of prophecy, we need to first consider that oftentimes prophets were shown visions: visions of heavenly things (Isaiah 6) or of events from a heavenly perspective (Ezekiel 8) or even a combination of these (Daniel 7:9-14). However, in all these the prophet is confronted with trying to explain a spiritual, heavenly experience in material, worldly terms the audience will understand. Therefore, we must be careful and cautious in interpreting prophecy because we are often confronted with much symbolism. What are we to do then? Let us consider another aspect of the nature of prophecy.
Someone once wrote that "prophecy is of a nature such that it is capable of many imperfect fulfillments but there is only one perfect fulfillment." Another teacher put it this way, "sometimes prophecies have an immediate but incomplete fulfillment and a distant perfect fulfillment." Does all this seem to be very complicated? It need not be so. Solomon wisely wrote, "[God] has put eternity into man's mind, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from beginning to the end" (Eccl. 3:11). In other words, when we read the prophets, we need to do so with the knowledge of our own limitations, and to recall Jeremiah's statement quoted earlier, we need to be reminded or our greatest limitation, our own sins. "But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God" (Is. 59:2). Even though one may think of himself as being as blameless as Job (Job 1:1), yet, when Job was confronted with God's heavenly glory (Job 38-41), even he had to admit his lack of knowledge and repent (Job 42:1-6). If the reading of the prophets leads one to repentance before God, then one has correctly read the prophets. And if one persists in repentance, then he or she will come to understand with Jeremiah, "The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases, His mercies never come to an end; they are new every morning; great is His faithfulness, 'The Lord is my portion,' says my soul, 'therefore I will hope in Him' " (Lam. 3:22-24).

KEYS TO A CHRISTIAN UNDERSTANDING OF THE PROPHETS

1. The rule of Israel upon the land was limited - Gen. 49:10; Matt. 21:42-44.
2. The worship of Israel in the tabernacle/temple was limited - Jer. 3:16; John 4:21-24.
3. All the land promises to Israel were completely fulfilled - Josh. 21:45, 23:14; 1 Kings 8:56
4. Therefore, the remaining promises to Israel relate to the people themselves and not to a limited land -
Gen. 9:26, 27; Is. 54:1-3; Zech. 2:1-5; John 4 :21-24; Heb. 11:13-16*, 12:18-29; 2 Pet. 3:13*
* - consider Ezek. 13:9 which was spoken to those who were still in the land of Israel: "nor will they enter
the land of Israel."
5. Christ is King NOW
a. He was born as King of Israel - Num. 24:17; Matt. 2:2.
b. He also asked for the nations (the Gentiles) as His inheritance as well - Ps. 2:7, 8; Jn 10:16, 17: 20,21.
c. He received His inheritance as Lord and King of all when He ascended to heaven - Dan. 7:13, 14; Matt.
16:28 (note: Jesus says "coming in His kingdom" as an allusion to Daniel's vision where the Son of Man
was seen "coming" to the throne in heaven; however, the disciples, unlike Daniel, would witness this
event from earth and see Him going, but His going from them was His "coming" in His humanity to the
throne and His kingdom); Acts 1:9.
d. He has established the peace and harmony of His kingdom - Is. 11:1-12; Acts 2:5, 41; 10:34-48;
Gal. 3:26-28; Eph. 2:11-22; Col. 1:13-20, 3:9-15.
e. He is at the present time ruler of the kings of the earth - Rev. 1:5.
6. The Church is the manifestation of Christ's kingdom in the world.
a. The Church is the Holy Nation, the Kingdom of God - 1 Pet. 2:9, 10; Rev. 1:6.
b. The Church is the royal priesthood of God - 1 Pet. 2:5, 10; Rev. 1:6.
c. The Church is Mount Zion, the mountain of God - Heb. 12:22.
d. The Church is heavenly Jerusalem, the city of God - Gal. 4:26; Heb. 12:22 (note: "heavenly" here
denotes that this Jerusalem is built by God rather than man and is therefore unshakable, Heb 12:28).
e. The glory of Christ and the Church - Eph.5:25-32; Rev. 21:9-22:5.
f. Therefore the promised blessings in the prophets relate to Christ and His people, the Church. Unlike
old Israel whose reign on the land came to an end (Is. 8:13-15; Matt. 21:42-44); New Israel, the
Church and her King, will never fail nor be led astray (Matt. 16:18; John 10:4, 5, 27, 28).
7. Finally, there are many in our time who often misinterpret the prophecies of the prophets because of an
erroneous interpretation of Revelation 20. They teach that Christ has not yet established His kingdom
on earth (see 5 and 6 above) and that Revelation 20 foretells a future, 1000 year reign of Christ on
earth. Therefore, they interpret many O.T. prophecies as yet to be fulfilled when in fact they are
fulfilled in Christ and His Church. On Revelation 20 consider the following points.
a. Satan has already been bound - Is. 49:24, 25; Matt. 12:28, 29; Mark 3:27; Luke 11:20-22; John
12:31, 16:11. In these Scriptures the strong man is Satan, the ruler of this fallen world; the one who
overwhelms him and takes his property (i.e., us) is Christ. The binding of Satan is not absolute (note
the absence of absolutes in the text), rather, Satan's determining to keep whole nations in darkness
has been bound so that he cannot stop the progress of the Gospel to the world nor lead the Church
astray, although he still retains his power to tempt (cf. Matt. 24:14; Eph 6:10-12).
b. Numbers in apocalyptic writings such as Revelation are symbolic rather than literal, therefore "1000"
is symbolic rather than literal. "1000" signifies blessedness, mercy, the full extent of God's oversight
and rule - Ex. 20:6; Deut. 7:9; Job 9:3, Ps 50:10; Song of Solomon 8:11; Is. 7:23; Jer. 32:18.
c. The first resurrection is Christ's resurrection and our participation in it through baptism - Matt.
27:52, 53; John 5: 24, 25; Rom. 6:3, 4.
d. Consider the three points immediately above as well as earlier points and it will become plain that
Christ's kingdom is NOW, He is king NOW, all those baptized are raptured (translated) into His kingdom
NOW (Col. 1:13-14), therefore, the millennium is NOW.
Now for anyone who thinks I have presented all the evidence I have that the millennium is now, you better
think again. I have only presented a fraction of the evidence that His kingdom is NOW.

the sinner, Zossima YES, A FUTURE MILLENNIUM ON EARTH IS HERESY.

Dear Zossima and friends, Here is what one Church source says on this question. "Happy and holy is the one having part in the resurrection, the first one. Over these the second death hath no authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with Him for a thousand years". Revelation 20:6 ONT (Orthodox New Testament, Vol. 2). Note on 20:6. "Certain ancient teachers, as a personal opinion, supported Chiliasm (another name for Millenarianism, the theory that Christ shall return to earth and reign for a thousand years before the final consummation). Those fathers who did not uphold it included St. Dionysios of Alexandria, St. Basil the Great, St. Gregory the Theologian, St. Epiphanios, and Blessed Jerome. The holy fathers of the Second OEcumenical Synod (381), having condemned the teaching of the heretic Apollinarios concerning the thousand-year reign of Christ, confirmed their belief by the introduction into the Creed of the following: "of Whose Kingdom there shall be no end." pages 593-594 ONT ...

God save us. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

zone · Feb 24, 2011

Red33 said:

hey Redster!

edifying?
false prophets in the OT always said, "ah! prophesy GOOD THING TO US....we shall not see trouble"

you're right that Jesus has secured His church.

but we still haveta go through the trib, bud - WHO DO YOU THINK IS TESTIFYING and overcoming by the word of their testimony, and the Blood of The Lamb?

i told ya brother.....i'll help ya. no worries.

love
zoney

Red33 · Feb 24, 2011

zone said:

Just a quicky. Is the 144,000 that is taken from the (12) tribes of the children of Israel in (Rev 7:1-8) a literal number of Israelites who will be sealed before those (4) angels hurt the earth and sea or do they represent something else?

dmdave17 · Feb 24, 2011

Wouldn't it be great to be around when the world finds out who is right?! "Amen. Come Lord Jesus." (Revelation 22:20)

Red33 · Feb 24, 2011

dmdave17 said:

I have a request. We have a believer here on this site that claims to have a gift of prophecy and has made many prophecies about the church. With the diversity of thoughts about future events involving the church, it's rapture and the tribulation period and the division it has caused, I am requesting this prophet go to the Spirit and clear up this mess for us?

I implore this prophet to have faith in the Spirit to guide him into the truth in this matter and to show us, in a convincing manner, what the scriptures specifically teach so that we can have whatever misunderstandings we may have cleared up once and for all. To be fair and respectable to what he reveals to us, we are committed not to attack him or what he reveals in this matter.

If anyone disagrees with what is revealed, they are asked to do so in a respectful manner or not at all. This request may never come to fruition or may be delayed and that would be understandable because of the present climate that has been expressed from many on this site.

zone · Feb 25, 2011

Red33 said:

i suppose they are among (if not THE) remnant...since i now believe the symbolic 1,000 year number (which the jews understood as 'messianic kingdom") began at The First Advent (and Pentecost), that number may encompass His Israelite election from then til the consummation, or they may be sealed at the very end.

either way, there ain't no pretrib rapture, bud. it simply isn't in the Bible.

zone · Feb 25, 2011

Red33 said:

I have a request. We have a believer here on this site that claims to have a gift of prophecy and has made many prophecies about the church. With the diversity of thoughts about future events involving the church, it's rapture and the tribulation period and the division it has caused, I am requesting this prophet go to the Spirit and clear up this mess for us?

I implore this prophet to have faith in the Spirit to guide him into the truth in this matter and to show us, in a convincing manner, what the scriptures specifically teach so that we can have whatever misunderstandings we may have cleared up once and for all. To be fair and respectable to what he reveals to us, we are committed not to attack him or what he reveals in this matter.

If anyone disagrees with what is revealed, they are asked to do so in a respectful manner or not at all. This request may never come to fruition or may be delayed and that would be understandable because of the present climate that has been expressed from many on this site.

well, since God does not give extra-biblical revelation to the Church (He has revealed Himself and His Plan IN THE WORD), i'm afraid if whoever the 'prophet' is claims God told him/her there's a pretrib rapture i'll be among those who disagree.

fair?

Zossima · Feb 25, 2011

Devolution: for those who have been baptized into Christ through water and the Spirit, they are already in His kingdom both physically and spiritually here and now. When Christ was raised from the tomb, the body He bore was the body which had been laid in the tomb; He still bore the marks of His crucifixion. The difference isn't that the former was physical and the latter spiritual, rather, the former was mortal and the latter immortal. This is the essence of Paul's discussion in 1 Cor. 15. The hope of Christianity has always been the hope of physical resurrection. Your language is at best imprecise and at worst promoting heresy.

the sinner, Zossima

zone · Feb 25, 2011

Zossima said:

Devolution: for those who have been baptized into Christ through water and the Spirit, they are already in His kingdom both physically and spiritually here and now. When Christ was raised from the tomb, the body He bore was the body which had been laid in the tomb; He still bore the marks of His crucifixion. The difference isn't that the former was physical and the latter spiritual, rather, the former was mortal and the latter immortal. This is the essence of Paul's discussion in 1 Cor. 15. The hope of Christianity has always been the hope of physical resurrection. Your language is at best imprecise and at worst promoting heresy.

the sinner, Zossima

most of what he says is heresy. and his group.
but nothing gets through to them. so......

Scotth1960 · Feb 25, 2011

zone said:

Zone, That is a false accusation against Zossima. There has been nothing heretical in anything he has written to Christian Chat. His thinking is Orthodox. He has a lot of good things to say, and we should thank God there is at least one good teacher on this forum. Most of what people post in this forum is probably or definitely not worth reading. Everything Zossima writes is worth reading. In Erie PA Scott

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