Millennialism: Truth or Heresy?

Red33 · Feb 25, 2011

quote On Revelation 20 consider the following points.
a. Satan has already been bound - Is. 49:24, 25; Matt. 12:28, 29; Mark 3:27; Luke 11:20-22; John
12:31, 16:11. In these Scriptures the strong man is Satan, the ruler of this fallen world; the one who
overwhelms him and takes his property (i.e., us) is Christ. The binding of Satan is not absolute (note
the absence of absolutes in the text), rather, Satan's determining to keep whole nations in darkness
has been bound so that he cannot stop the progress of the Gospel to the world nor lead the Church
astray, although he still retains his power to tempt (cf. Matt. 24:14; Eph 6:10-12). unquote

When did this angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand and lay hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years according to (Rev 2:1,2)? Was it right after the cross, Christ's resurrection, His ascension or at Pentecost or sometime thereafter? After the ascension of Christ, who now sits at the right hand of the Father, how is it that the Holy Spirit through Paul wrote that Satan actively blinds the minds of those that believe not (2Cor 4:4)? That goes way beyond any personal temptation he has with man to get them to succumb to sin through the flesh.

Do you think that the devices and strategies of the devil, with his principalities, powers, rulers of darkness and spiritual wickedness, that pervade the atmosphere just above the earth, is only involved with fleshly temptations that we wrestle against (Eph 2:2, Eph 6:12)? Is not Satan considered the god of this world (2Cor 4:4)? Did not Paul also write that Satan has the ability to beguile believers from the simplicity of the gospel, as he did through subtlety by beguiling the woman (Eve) in the garden (Gen 3:13)? So how has he been bound in these areas? I suppose that the devil does not seek whom he can devour or try to sift believers as wheat (1Pt 5:8, Lk 22:31)? I suppose he has no power to lie and decieve through those lies, being the father of all lies (Jn 8:44)?

I suppose that Satan can no longer transform himself into an angel of light and also his ministers as ministers of righteousness (2Cor 11:14) to deceive with a counterfeit light through another Christ, another gospel and another (s)pirit (2Cor 11:4). This is Jews and Gentiles alike. BTW - What do you think the mystery of iniquity is all about that is already at work in this present evil world (2Thes 2:7,8, Gal 1:4)? What about the evil that is in the world, which is different from sin, who is behind these things including the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life (1Jn 216)? What about those that depart from the faith that give place to the devil (Eph 4:27) and give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons (2Tim 4:1), have these no present application in the church? Has the devil and his confederated host of demons been bound from these things?

If this 1,000 years started around the ascension of Christ are we to believe is was some kind of figure of speech or some symbolic time frame that could have lasted not more than a 1,000 years? Even that by my calculations would be a time frame of over 2,000 years to date? Can you explain in (Rev 20) why the term 'thousands years' is used (6) times in the first (7) verses and you want us to believe that it is not a literal 1,000 years being referred to? The Greek phrase for 'thousand years' is made up of chilioi etos, meaning 1,000 years and it is a literal term of 1,000 years and the Holy Spirit made sure that we understood that by mentioning that term (6) times in (Rev 20:1-7) just so it would sink in. I will stop there so that you can ponder that and hopefully it will sink into your prefrontal lobe.

zone · Feb 25, 2011

Scotth1960 said:

GO BACK AND RE-READ IT.
IT WASN'T ABOUT ZOSSIMA.
i agree with most of what he posts.

zone · Feb 25, 2011

Red33 said:

a thousand

Original Word: χίλιοι, αι, α
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: chilioi
Phonetic Spelling: (khil'-ee-oy)
Short Definition: a thousand
Definition: a thousand.

5507 xílioi – properly, a thousand; the product of 10 x 10 x 10 (103, ten cubed); (figuratively) emphatic, total inclusiveness, showing no one (nothing) is left out. See also "the Millennium" in the HELPS prophecy-guide.

["Ten" in Scripture can already express the symbolic meaning "completely" (inclusively) so 5507 (xílioi) as the cube of 10 ("a thousand") powerfully stresses the meaning "full/inclusive" (totality).]

NATIONS
a race, a nation, pl. the nations (as distinct from Isr.)

Original Word: ἔθνος, ους, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: ethnos
Phonetic Spelling: (eth'-nos)
Short Definition: a race, people, the Gentiles
Definition: a race, people, nation; the nations, heathen world, Gentiles.

1484 éthnos (from ethō, "forming a custom, culture") – properly, people joined by practicing similar customs or common culture; nation(s), usually referring to unbelieving Gentiles (non-Jews).
Word Origin
probably from a prim. root
Definition
a race, a nation, pl. the nations (as distinct from Isr.)
NASB Word Usage
Gentiles (93), nation (30), nations (37), pagans (1), people (2).

~

you believe whatever you want.

based on those verses alone i skirted the edges of a reign of some sort in spite the fact i COULD NOT MAKE ANY OF THE REST OF IT WORK. (though i NEVER swallowed that pretrib hoax, Praise be to God).

when i put aside my other studies and looked at the Millennial teachings it took under a month for me to see where it all fell into place.

the 1,000 year figure is symbolic and the jews understood it - it MEANS MESSIANIC KINGDOM.

they didn't understand that Jesus' Kingdom WAS NOT OF THIS WORLD (He is in Heaven).

when He Returns it's JUDGMENT DAY RED.

and for Christians, New Heavens and New Earth >> ETERNITY.

zone · Feb 25, 2011

The Kingdom of Israel

The purpose of this article is to demonstrate that the basis of chiliasm (premillennialism) as understood by the early church fathers is based on a Jewish model of human history which is not supported by the Bible.

Jewish Millennial Concepts
There is an ancient writing called the Seder Olam Rabbah, a Jewish instrument written in the year 240 C.E. (about 1,760 years ago) that records historical events from the start of Creation according to a pre-determined 6,000-year plan. This countdown operates on the assumption that mankind is allotted 6 (six) one-thousand year days and then comes the Day of Hashem, which also lasts a thousand years.

Yose b. Halafta, the presumed author of Seder Olam Rabbah, probably had access to old traditions that also underlay the chronological computations of the Jewish Hellenistic chronographer Demetrius (third century B.C.E.).

The Hebrew rabbis have taught for thousands of years: "In that God created the heavens and the earth in six days and on the 7th day he rested...man will have his time of reign on earth for 6,000 years and the Messiah will reign in the 7th millennium." When speaking of the last days before the Messiah's return, Peter wrote, "Do not be ignorant of this one thing: a day with the LORD is as a millennium, and a millennium is as a day."

Early Church Fathers and Jewish rabbis both agree that human history was to last for 6,000 years, or six millennia, before the ushering in of the seventh millennium — the 1000 year long Messianic Age. The epistle of Barnabas, and the Jewish Talmud, both refer to this concept of world history. But, even before the time of Christ, the Jews also understood that the Messiah would come after 6000 years of human history!

The Jewish Encyclopedia declares:
The Perso-Babylonian world-year of twelve millenniums, however, was transformed in Jewish eschatology into a world-week of seven millenniums corresponding with the week of Creation. The verse, "A thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday" (Ps 90:4) having suggested the idea that the present world of toil is to be followed by a Sabbatical millennium, "the world to come." Of these the six millenniums were again divided, as in Parsism, into three periods: the first 2000 years devoid of the law; the next 2000 years under the rule of the law; and the last 2000 years preparing amid struggles and through catastrophes for the rule of the Messiah ("Eschatology," The Jewish Encyclopedia, V, p.211).

The Encyclopedia Judaica quotes a source written about 200 A.D. which declares that the world will exist for "6000 years, of which the first 2000 will be a period of desolation, 2000 of Torah, and the last 2000 the messianic era" ("Eschatology," Encyclopedia Judaica, VI).

In the Jewish New Testament Commentary, by Dr. David H. Stern, in a commentary on II Peter, chapter 3, dealing with the "day" for a "thousand years" equation, Dr. Stern writes that this idea "has deep roots in Judaism, specifically in connection with dating the Messianic Era." He then quotes the Talmud, in tractate Sanhedrin, as follows:

It has been taught in accordance with Rav Kattina, Just as every seventh year is a year of sh'mittah [letting the land lie fallow], so it is with the world: one thousand years out of seven are to be fallow — as proved by the following three texts taken together [in which the key word is day]: The Lord alone will be exalted in that day (Isaiah 2:11); A psalm and song for the day of Shabbat (Psalm 92:1), meaning the day that is entirely Shabbat; and, For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past (Psalm 90:4). The school of Eliyahu teaches: the world exists for six thousand years — two thousand of them tohu ["void"]; two thousand, Torah; and two thousand, the era of the Messiah. But because of our numerous iniquities many of these years have been lost (Sanhedrin 97a-97b).
The Gemara in Sanhedrin 97 a-b and Avodah Zara 9a teaches in the name of Dvei Eliyahu: 6,000 years is the world. 2,000 years of "tohu" (chaos), 2,000 years of Torah (begun when Avraham Avinu was 52 years old, which according to one Midrash is the time that he recognized G-d; see Rashi on both Gemarot), and 2,000 years of "yemot Hamshiach" (Messianic age).

In rabbinic literature, it is also taught that each day in creation represents 1,000 years of time. In the Talmud in Sanhedrin 97 it is written:
"It has been taught in accordance with R. Kattina: Just as the seventh year is one year of release in seven, so is the world: one thousand years out of seven shall be fallow, as it is written. And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day; [Isaiah 2:11] and it is further said, A Psalm and song for the sabbath day; (Psalm 92) meaning the day that is altogether Sabbath [i.e. the period of complete desolation] and it is also said, For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past. (Psalm 90:4: thus 'day' in the preceding verses means a thousand years)."
It is traditional Jewish (house of Judah) understanding that the Jewish Messiah (Mashiach) would come 4,000 years after the creation of Adam and Eve. In the Talmud in Sanhedrin 97 it is written:

"The Tanna debe Eliyyahu teaches: The world is to exist six thousand years. In the first two thousand there was desolation; (i.e. no Torah. It is a tradition that Abraham was fifty-two years old when he began to convert men to the worship of the true God; from Adam until then, two thousand years elapsed) two thousand years the Torah flourished; and the next two thousand years is the Messianic era, (i.e. Messiah will come within that period) but through our many iniquities all these years have been lost. (He should have come at the beginning of the last two thousand years; the delay is due to our sins.)"

Therefore, as recorded in the Talmud in Sanhedrin 97, there was an expectation that the Jewish Messiah (Mashiach) would come after 4,000 years of time. In an article in the Jewish Press newspaper (Brooklyn, New York) by Rabbi Sholom Klass entitled, The Coming of the Messiah, he explains that there was a high expectation among the Jewish people for a Jewish Messiah (Mashiach) during the first century. In his article, Rabbi Sholom Klass writes:

"The belief in a personal Messiah reached its highest tension during that period of the first century when Rome sent her despotic procurators to rule over Judea. The yoke was most oppressive and the Jews awaited a leader whom G-d would send to articulate their latent spirit of rebellion and free them from the Roman tyranny."
http://www.northforest.org/Eschatology/JewishMill.html

zone · Feb 25, 2011

"The Tanna debe Eliyyahu teaches: The world is to exist six thousand years. In the first two thousand there was desolation; (i.e. no Torah. It is a tradition that Abraham was fifty-two years old when he began to convert men to the worship of the true God; from Adam until then, two thousand years elapsed) two thousand years the Torah flourished; and the next two thousand years is the Messianic era, (i.e. Messiah will come within that period) but through our many iniquities all these years have been lost. (He should have come at the beginning of the last two thousand years; the delay is due to our sins.)"
-Sanhedrin 97

Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Sanhedrin

Folio 97a

the tabernacle of David ha-nofeleth [that is fallen].'1 He replied, 'Thus hath R. Johanan said: in the generation when the son of David [i.e., Messiah] will come, scholars will be few in number, and as for the rest, their eyes will fail through sorrow and grief. Multitudes of trouble and evil decrees will be promulgated anew, each new evil coming with haste before the other has ended.'

Our Rabbis taught: in the seven year cycle at the end of which the son of David will come-in the first year, this verse will be fulfilled: And I will cause it to rain upon one city and cause it not to rain upon another city;2 in the second, the arrows of hunger will be sent forth;3 in the third, a great famine, in the course of which men, women, and children, pious men and saints4 will die, and the Torah will be forgotten by its students; in the fourth, partial plenty;5 in the fifth, great plenty, when men will eat, drink and rejoice, and the Torah will return to its disciples; in the sixth, [Heavenly] sounds;6 in the seventh, wars; and at the conclusion of the septennate the son of David will come. R. Joseph demurred: But so many septennates have passed, yet has he not come! — Abaye retorted: Were there then [Heavenly] sounds in the sixth and wars in the seventh! Moreover, have they [sc. the troubles] been in this order7 !

[Wherewith thine enemies have reproached, O Lord,' wherewith they have reproached the footsteps of thine anointed.]8 it has been taught, R. Judah said: in the generation when the son of David comes, the house of assembly9 will be for harlots, Galilee in ruins, Gablan lie desolate,10 the border inhabitants11 wander about from city to city, receiving no hospitality, the wisdom of scribes in disfavour, God-fearing men despised, people12 be dog-faced,13 and truth entirely lacking, as it is written, Yea, truth faileth, and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey.14 What is meant by 'yea, truth faileth [ne'edereth15 ]'? — The Scholars of the School of Rab16 said: This teaches that it will split up into separate groups17 and depart.18 What is the meaning of 'and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey [mishtollel19 ]'? — The School of R. Shila said: He who departs from evil will be dubbed a fool by his fellow-men.20

Raba said: I used to think at first that there is no truth in the world.21 Whereupon one of the Rabbis, by name of R. Tabuth — others say, by name of R. Tabyomi — who, even if he were given all the treasures of the world, would not lie, told me that he once came to a place called Kushta,22 in which no one ever told lies, and where no man ever died before his time. Now, he married one of their women, by whom he had two sons. One day his wife was sitting and washing her hair, when a neighbour came and knocked at the door. Thinking to himself that it would not be etiquette [to tell her that his wife was washing herself], he called out, 'She is not here.' [As a punishment for this] his two sons died. Then people of that town came to him and questioned him, 'What is the cause of this?' So he related to them what had happened. 'We pray thee,' they answered, 'quit this town, and do not incite Death against us.'23

It has been taught: R. Nehorai said: in the generation when Messiah comes, young men will insult the old, and old men will stand before the young [to give them honour]; daughters will rise up against their mothers, and daughters-in-law against their mothers-in-law. The people shall be dog-faced, and a son will not be abashed in his father's presence.

It has been taught, R. Nehemiah said: in the generation of Messiah's coming impudence will increase, esteem be perverted,24 the vine yield its fruit, yet shall wine be dear,25 and the Kingdom will be converted to heresy26 with none to rebuke them. This supports R. Isaac, who said: The son of David will not come until the whole world is converted to the belief of the heretics. Raba said: What verse [proves this]? it is all turned white: he is clean.27

Our Rabbis taught: For the Lord shall judge his people, and repent himself of his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left:28 the son of David will not come until denunciators are in abundance.29 Another interpretation [of their power is gone]: until scholars are few. Another interpretation: until the [last] perutah has gone from the purse. Yet another interpretation: until the redemption is despaired of, for it is written, there is none shut up or left, as — were it possible [to say so] — Israel had neither Supporter nor Helper. Even as R. Zera, who, whenever he chanced upon scholars engaged thereon [I.e., in calculating the time of the Messiah's coming], would say to them: I beg of you, do not postpone it, for it has been taught: Three come unawares:30 Messiah, a found article and a scorpion.31
R. Kattina said: Six thousand years shall the world exist, and one [thousand, the seventh], it shall be desolate, as it is written, And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day.32 Abaye said: it will be desolate two [thousand], as it is said, After two days will he revive us: in the third day, he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.33
It has been taught in accordance with R. Kattina: Just as the seventh year is one year of release in seven, so is the world: one thousand years out of seven shall be fallow, as it is written, And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day,' and it is further said, A Psalm and song for the Sabbath day,34 meaning the day that is altogether Sabbath — 35 and it is also said, For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past.36

The Tanna debe Eliyyahu teaches: The world is to exist six thousand years. In the first two thousand there was desolation;37 two thousand years the Torah flourished;38 and the next two thousand years is the Messianic era,39

To Part b

Babylonian Talmud: Sanhedrin 97

~

"and the next two thousand years is the Messianic era, (i.e. Messiah will come within that period)"

~

the Messianic Kingdom they were looking for started 2,000 years ago.

and The King is reigning now. anything else is jewish FABLES.

if you have been duped into helping Mystery Babylon prepare for her GOLDEN AGE (Christian Zionism), cast that stuff aside and just preach the Good News to the jews.

zone · Feb 25, 2011

zone said:

The Kingdom of Israel

The purpose of this article is to demonstrate that the basis of chiliasm (premillennialism) as understood by the early church fathers is based on a Jewish model of human history which is not supported by the Bible.

Jewish Millennial Concepts

"The Tanna debe Eliyyahu teaches: The world is to exist six thousand years. In the first two thousand there was desolation; (i.e. no Torah. It is a tradition that Abraham was fifty-two years old when he began to convert men to the worship of the true God; from Adam until then, two thousand years elapsed) two thousand years the Torah flourished; and the next two thousand years is the Messianic era, (i.e. Messiah will come within that period) but through our many iniquities all these years have been lost. (He should have come at the beginning of the last two thousand years; the delay is due to our sins.)"

http://www.northforest.org/Eschatology/JewishMill.html

the great tragedy:

(He should have come at the beginning of the last two thousand years; the delay is due to our sins.)"

Red33 · Feb 27, 2011

Zone,

You believe that Satan has been bound from the time of Christ's resurrection/ascension don't you? If you believed otherwise, you could not believe that we are in the Millennium (or 1,000 year period) as you do, which to you is only figurative and not a literal time period and is based upon the reign of Christ or the age of grace which the church is living in at present which started a Pentecost. I REPEAT. You believe that the church is presently living in the time of the Millennium and Satan is bound during this time (from being able to deceive the nations so that the gospel could go forth).

In our generation Russia was closed to the gospel along with many of the communist nations and did not open up until the until after President Reagan told Gorbachev to 'tear down the Berlin wall' in 1987. The dismantling of the wall began in November 1989 and various gates allowed the people to cross over if they chose. This is when the gospel had free course to enter into these communist countries where prior to that there were those missionaries that risked their lives and smuggled Bibles. Are you going to tell me that Satan didn't have a stronghold of deception in these communist bloc nations keeping the gospel from having free course?

I wrote an earlier post that you gave little consideration to, along with 'PPSoma' and 'Zossima', that concerned the ability of Satan and his organized host of demons, rulers of darkness, principalities, powers and spiritual wickedness in high places in the atmosphere. None of you wanted to touch that with a (10) foot pole. How can Satan be bound at the resurrection/ascension and there still be these problems that have been defined by the scriptures concerning Satan's ability and not just with the church but also the nations. I will repost it and let's see if any of you can give an answer to what they testify concerning the time of the NT church. Because if Satan has not been bound and put into those chains presently, that (Rev 20:1,2) speaks to, then that throws off your entire belief system of future events concerning Christ and the church, the taking up of the saints and the resurrection of the dead in Christ. Where are you going to fit the great tribulation that comes upon the earth that you believe has nothing to do with a (7) year period?

quote On Revelation 20 consider the following points.
a. Satan has already been bound - Is. 49:24, 25; Matt. 12:28, 29; Mark 3:27; Luke 11:20-22; John
12:31, 16:11. In these Scriptures the strong man is Satan, the ruler of this fallen world; the one who
overwhelms him and takes his property (i.e., us) is Christ. The binding of Satan is not absolute (note
the absence of absolutes in the text), rather, Satan's determining to keep whole nations in darkness
has been bound so that he cannot stop the progress of the Gospel to the world nor lead the Church
astray, although he still retains his power to tempt (cf. Matt. 24:14; Eph 6:10-12). unquote

When did this angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand and lay hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years according to (Rev 20:1,2)? Was it right after the cross, Christ's resurrection, His ascension or at Pentecost or sometime thereafter? After the ascension of Christ, who now sits at the right hand of the Father, how is it that the Holy Spirit through Paul wrote that Satan actively blinds the minds of those that believe not (2Cor 4:4)? That goes way beyond any personal temptation he has with man to get them to succumb to sin through the flesh.

Do you think that the devices and strategies of the devil, with his principalities, powers, rulers of darkness and spiritual wickedness, that pervade the atmosphere just above the earth, is only involved with fleshly temptations that we wrestle against (Eph 2:2, Eph 6:12)? Is not Satan considered the god of this world (2Cor 4:4)? Did not Paul also write that Satan has the ability to beguile believers from the simplicity of the gospel, as he did through subtlety by beguiling the woman (Eve) in the garden (Gen 3:13)? So how has he been bound in these areas? I suppose that the devil does not seek whom he can devour or try to sift believers as wheat (1Pt 5:8, Lk 22:31)? I suppose he has no power to lie and decieve through those lies, being the father of all lies (Jn 8:44)?

I suppose that Satan can no longer transform himself into an angel of light and also his ministers as ministers of righteousness (2Cor 11:14) to deceive with a counterfeit light through another Christ, another gospel and another (s)pirit (2Cor 11:4). This is Jews and Gentiles alike. BTW - What do you think the mystery of iniquity is all about that is already at work in this present evil world (2Thes 2:7,8, Gal 1:4)? What about the evil that is in the world, which is different from sin, who is behind these things including the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life (1Jn 216)? What about those that depart from the faith that give place to the devil (Eph 4:27) and give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons (2Tim 4:1), have these no present application in the church? Has the devil and his confederated host of demons been bound from these things? unquote

endofallfears · Feb 27, 2011

Concerning numeric symbolism in the Biblical prophecy, we cannot say the sixty-nine "sevens" is a literal 483 years, and then say the 1000 years of the millennium is allegorical, unless there is a good CONTEXTUAL reason.

Scripture is used to shape our belief system, not prove our own belief systems.

Scotth1960 · Feb 27, 2011

Zossima said:

In looking into prophetic

writings, we are first confronted with a problem: many

people have no knowledge of what a prophet is or a

mistaken idea of a prophet, and many people do not

understand the nature of prophecy itself. Let us look at

the prophet first.

First and foremost, a prophet is a man or woman who

lives a holy life and is dedicated to God. He may be a

minister of God (Ezek. 1:3), a descendant of a king

(Zeph. 1:1), or a simple shepherd (Amos 1:1). Whatever

their position in life, nevertheless, they are holy and

devoted to God. But what of their ministry?

Too often people think of prophets as more like fortune-

tellers than servants of God. A prophet's work is not

primarily to foretell future events; consider this

statement by Jeremiah in Lamentations 2:14, "Your

prophets...have not exposed your iniquity to restore

your fortunes." How does a prophet expose sin? As

Isaiah said, "To the law and the testimony" (8:20). The

prophets reminded the people always of what is in God's

Law and by this gave testimony to the people of their

departure from God's will. Therefore, a prophet's

primary job is to reveal or point out God's will for His

people; secondarily do they then reveal the future, but

that revealing of the future is to give hope to the

faithful and warning to the unfaithful. Now we are

approaching the nature of prophecy.

In regard to the nature of prophecy, we need to first

consider that oftentimes prophets were shown visions:

visions of heavenly things (Isaiah 6) or of events from a

heavenly perspective (Ezekiel 8) or even a combination

of these (Daniel 7:9-14). However, in all these the

prophet is confronted with trying to explain a spiritual,

heavenly experience in material, worldly terms the

audience will understand. Therefore, we must be

careful and cautious in interpreting prophecy because

we are often confronted with much symbolism. What

are we to do then? Let us consider another aspect of

the nature of prophecy.

Someone once wrote that "prophecy is of a nature such

that it is capable of many imperfect fulfillments but

there is only one perfect fulfillment." Another teacher

put it this way, "sometimes prophecies have an

immediate but incomplete fulfillment and a distant

perfect fulfillment." Does all this seem to be very

complicated? It need not be so. Solomon wisely wrote,

"[God] has put eternity into man's mind, yet so that he

cannot find out what God has done from beginning to

the end" (Eccl. 3:11). In other words, when we read the

prophets, we need to do so with the knowledge of our

own limitations, and to recall Jeremiah's statement

quoted earlier, we need to be reminded or our greatest

limitation, our own sins. "But your iniquities have made

a separation between you and your God" (Is. 59:2).

Even though one may think of himself as being as

blameless as Job (Job 1:1), yet, when Job was

confronted with God's heavenly glory (Job 38-41), even

he had to admit his lack of knowledge and repent (Job

42:1-6). If the reading of the prophets leads one to

repentance before God, then one has correctly read the

prophets. And if one persists in repentance, then he or

she will come to understand with Jeremiah, "The

steadfast love of the Lord never ceases, His mercies

never come to an end; they are new every morning;

great is His faithfulness, 'The Lord is my portion,' says

my soul, 'therefore I will hope in Him' " (Lam. 3:22-24).

KEYS TO A CHRISTIAN UNDERSTANDING OF THE

PROPHETS

Click to expand...

Zossima said:

Friend, Zossima, and others. The Church's rejection of

premillennialism (chiliasm) is one indication that the

Orthodox Church is in the truth. This is a common error

today, the dispensationalist form of chiliasm. Anyway,

here is a website that some of you may find interesting:

"January 28, 2009 Can Eastern Orthodox Prove They're

the One True Church? by Dante Tremayne

christiantheology.wordpress.com/..../can-eastern-orthodox-prove-theyre-the-one-true-church/

Take care. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

zone · Feb 27, 2011

Red33 said:

its not MY theory.

Revelation 20:3
and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

εθνη noun - accusative plural neuter
ethnos eth'-nos: a race (as of the same habit), i.e. a tribe; specially, a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually, by implication, pagan) -- Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

Ephesians 3
The Mystery of the Gospel Revealed
1 For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles— 2 assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. 4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 6 This mystery isa that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

7 Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God’s grace, which was given me by the working of his power. 8 To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages inb God who created all things, 10 so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11 This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him. 13 So I ask you not to lose heart over what I am suffering for you, which is your glory.

Red33 · Feb 28, 2011

zone said:

Zone,

You and others have made (Rev 20:3) not a future event but current and ongoing since the time of Christ's ascension. And the thousand years, you have also made it current and ongoing from the same point of reference, the ascension of Christ. You have made this thousand years or millennium as a figure of speech (not literal) meaning the Messiah's reign on the earth through the church and the spreading of the gospel. How you ever came up with this understanding is a very confusing mess that fits into nothing.

Are you going to tell us that what we see taking place in (Rev19) has already happened or should that be put after (Rev 20)? That one verse in (Rev 20:3) is your undoing and you have to assume many things into evidence that do not apply and it makes what you believe to be out of sorts and very inconsistent. Don't get wordy on me, just keep it simple and understandable and direct without the sarcasm.

zone · Feb 28, 2011

Red33 said:

Amillennialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Amillennialism - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity

"Amillennialism: Intoduction and the Book of Revelation" by Anthony Hoekema

A Defense of (Reformed) Amillennialism

Amillennialism

Monergism :: Amillennialism 101 << MP3s

SermonAudio.com - 1. What's a thousand years among friends? << MP3

SermonAudio.com - 2. This Age vs. the Age to Come << MP3

APOSTLE'S CREED:
Apostles' Creed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

NICENE CREED:
Nicene Creed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Red33 · Feb 28, 2011

zone said:

I am not going to look these up because I am responding and discussing with you and others as real people on this site. This is a cop out and not an individual response. You seem to have a difficult time dealing with specifics and keeping things simple according to the scriptures. A 1,000 years is a thousand years and you have to deny that by spiritualizing that specific time frame because it does not allow you to believe the way you have learned. Do you deny the way I have characterized your beliefs...

(You and others have made (Rev 20:3) not a future event but current and ongoing since the time of Christ's ascension. And the thousand years, you have also made it current and ongoing from the same point of reference, the ascension of Christ. You have made this thousand years or millennium as a figure of speech (not literal) meaning the Messiah's reign on the earth through the church and the spreading of the gospel. How you ever came up with this understanding is a very confusing mess that fits into nothing.

Are you going to tell us that what we see taking place in (Rev19) has already happened or should that be put after (Rev 20)? That one verse in (Rev 20:3) is your undoing and you have to assume many things into evidence that do not apply and it makes what you believe to be out of sorts and very inconsistent.)

zone · Feb 28, 2011

Red33 said:

Red.
has The Messiah come? yes or no?

the Hebrews are told HOW MANY "COMINGS" THERE WILL BE OF THE LORD?

ONE? THREE? or Two.

and will He be dealing with their SIN at that time (or anyone's)? or is it Judgment Day?
....................

Hebrews 9:28
so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

....................

He already came as Messiah. Now He's Coming as Judge.

there's a very serious reason for the leaven of this dispensational model having been introduced - don't you want to know what that reason is?

if Jesus has NOT fulfilled His role as Messiah (70 weeks), aren't you without salvation?

by desiring me to post and post refuting pretrib (a critical part of dispensational theology), you're basically asking me to argue with john hagee or tim lahaye or hal lindsey or scofield (and pharasaical fables).

people have already done that.

why do you refuse to read the links i provided?

you stick to pretrib etc. rather than even consider a legitimate historic millennial alternative to the dispensational theology that has been thoroughly debunked?

you'd rather go around and around the circle with me than look at the following? why is that?

not willing to spend some sleepless nights like Kim Riddlebarger did when he found out he had been duped by dispensationalism/pretrib?

his stuff is included below.

zone said:

2 Timothy 4
Preach the Word
1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sounda teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. 5 As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

6For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.

1 Corinthians 3:13
his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work.

Isaiah 66:22
"As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure.

1 Peter 1:5
who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

2 Peter 3:13
But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Isaiah 65:17
“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.

Revelation 21:1
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

~ i still love you
zone.

Red33 · Feb 28, 2011

zone said:

Red.
has The Messiah come? yes or no?

the Hebrews are told HOW MANY "COMINGS" THERE WILL BE OF THE LORD?

ONE? THREE? or Two.

and will He be dealing with their SIN at that time (or anyone's)? or is it Judgment Day?
....................

Hebrews 9:28
so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

....................

He already came as Messiah. Now He's Coming as Judge.

there's a very serious reason for the leaven of this dispensational model having been introduced - don't you want to know what that reason is?

if Jesus has NOT fulfilled His role as Messiah (70 weeks), aren't you without salvation?

by desiring me to post and post refuting pretrib (a critical part of dispensational theology), you're basically asking me to argue with john hagee or tim lahaye or hal lindsey or scofield (and pharasaical fables).

people have already done that.

why do you refuse to read the links i provided?

you stick to pretrib etc. rather than even consider a legitimate historic millennial alternative to the dispensational theology that has been thoroughly debunked?

you'd rather go around and around the circle with me than look at the following? why is that?

not willing to spend some sleepless nights like Kim Riddlebarger did when he found out he had been duped by dispensationalism/pretrib?

his stuff is included below.

2 Timothy 4
Preach the Word
1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sounda teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. 5 As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

6For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.

1 Corinthians 3:13
his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work.

Isaiah 66:22
"As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure.

1 Peter 1:5
who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

2 Peter 3:13
But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Isaiah 65:17
“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.

Revelation 21:1
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

~ i still love you
zone.

Zone,

You are scape-goating and because you do not want to deal with (Rev 20:3) etc. Understanding the progression of end time events is like the law, if you offend (or become faulty through transgressing) in one point you are guilty of all of what is written, because it is one law and the scriptures cannot be broken. If you can't rightly explain (Rev 20:3) in the order that it has been given then it becomes unbefitting to the whole picture and disqualifies the whole understanding of the events that must take place. You can put the letter 'F' before the letter 'C' and claim that you have the alphabet down in the order it has been given. Get this right in (Rev 20:3) and then I'll listen to the next thing you have to say, but not until then and I don't care how much information you have studied.

zone · Feb 28, 2011

Red33 said:

i've answered plenty. and provided sources by teachers i trust - aren't you the one insisting we study under men called of God?

are you a freemason, Red33?

i find it not credible that you know the Scriptures so well; yet are not familiar with the historic models concerning millennialism; continue to push people into a 'church" to be taught under certain men, presumably teaching the same dispensational/temporal zionist doctrine you do.

i have to prove nothing to you. it doesn't matter if you don't read the links - others might.

keep talking....this whole pretrib "rapture" dual covenent theology scam is coming crashing down (for some).

you never did answer me concerning who or what this is....if we are going to do Revelation in a LINEAR fashion as you appear to do, this passage comes before 20.

identify her please, then we'll know all about the Kingdom NOT being postponed (amillennialism):

Revelation 17:5
And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

also:
you can't answer a couple of simple questions?

has The Messiah come? yes or no?

the Hebrews are told HOW MANY "COMINGS" THERE WILL BE OF THE LORD?

ONE? THREE? or Two.

and will He be dealing with their SIN at that time (or anyone's)? or is it Judgment Day?

Hebrews 9:28
so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

DanuckInUSA · Feb 28, 2011

Inconsequential

Red33 · Feb 28, 2011

zone said:

i've answered plenty. and provided sources by teachers i trust - aren't you the one insisting we study under men called of God?

are you a freemason, Red33?

i find it not credible that you know the Scriptures so well; yet are not familiar with the historic models concerning millennialism; continue to push people into a 'church" to be taught under certain men, presumably teaching the same dispensational/temporal zionist doctrine you do.

i have to prove nothing to you. it doesn't matter if you don't read the links - others might.

keep talking....this whole pretrib "rapture" dual covenent theology scam is coming crashing down (for some).

you never did answer me concerning who or what this is....if we are going to do Revelation in a LINEAR fashion as you appear to do, this passage comes before 20.

identify her please, then we'll know all about the Kingdom NOT being postponed (amillennialism):

Revelation 17:5
And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

also:
you can't answer a couple of simple questions?

has The Messiah come? yes or no?

the Hebrews are told HOW MANY "COMINGS" THERE WILL BE OF THE LORD?

ONE? THREE? or Two.

and will He be dealing with their SIN at that time (or anyone's)? or is it Judgment Day?

Hebrews 9:28
so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

If you have not problem with (Rev 20:3) then answer the question concerning when Satan was bound and for how long and where does (Rev 19) fit in. Keep it simple and concise so that others can understand. Do your trusted sources agree with you and would the average believer understand as you do or are they just a bunch of falsely taught individual that have been duped? SPEAK IT PLAINLY!

HeavenwithinYOU · Mar 1, 2011

GREAT read... one of the better posts... If anyone wants to hear my testimony, please watch, the Lord showed me seven dreams telling me to tell all to FAST and READ and refrain from the WORLD and ask for the Living Water to burst forth and I was led to compile a list of Scriptures to share for ALL TO make sure that they are ONE with these Scriptures, that they can say that ALL these have happened to them... no self deception, truth and FIRE Spirit of Christ only please.

Watch my testimony and much love in Christ out King, the HOLY SPIRIT from the Father above. -----> YouTube - Jesus Christ Testimony, Finding Jesus Christ, Jesus loves you.

[FONT=&quot]•John 17:21 - Jesus said: "That all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be IN us."
John 8:31 - "IF you ABIDE in my word, you are TRULY my disciples."
• John 14:21: "He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
• Luke 14:26 - "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple."
• John 7:37 - For Jesus stood and cried, saying on the day of the Feast, "If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his BELLY shall flow rivers of Living Water!"

[/FONT] • Galatians 2:20 - "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me."
• 2 Corinthians 13:5 - "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?"
• Hebrews 12:14 - "Without holiness no one will see the Lord."
• 2 Peter 2:2 - "Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute."
• Ephesians 2:14 - For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

• Romans 8:9 -- "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ."

• Galatians 5:20 -- "Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires."

• Colossians 2:11 -- "In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ."

• John 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world."

• 1 John 2:27 "...and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit."
• 1 John 3:9 - "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."

• 1 John 5:18 - "We know that the person who has been born from God does not go on sinning. Rather, the Son of God protects them, and the evil one cannot harm them."
• Luke 24:49 "I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."

• John 4: 23 -- "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

• Hebrews 12:8 "If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons."

• John 8:34 - Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed."

Necto · Mar 1, 2011

Zone enters all into error! Look around, what you see? Where is the Kingdom? State of today's churches the pity. All of you, which reign today - you with the gone blind eyes! Zone sees that what she wishes to see! Zone loves knowledge, the writings, the doctrine and wishes to possess them. There can be we began to chase knowledge to come nearer to the Lord? The knowledge of the Writings (Bible) is not enough for revelations! We can know the Writing but we not the loan what thought has enclosed Spirit. Here we mention dependence on Live God. But all knowing the Writing run into a temptation - to be independent of God! From here there are different doctrines, many of which fatal. Today His Kingdom works in us and has not come yet outside, as though it was not pleasant to us!Today the Lord works in us, and tomorrow He will come obviously for everyone, and His arrival will be difficult be not to noticing! I see that Red is right in many things and I support him.
Greetings from Russia! Necto.

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