3 View Points.

[MultilingualMessenger]

Rejectors will be judged but that can only happen when they in full knowledge reject Christ. Anyone born prior to Christ's birth could not reject Him.

A few were called prior to 27AD, a very few, but the vast majority of mankind has simply not been judged yet.

Of course they could.

They could definitely reject God. Again, He makes Himself known to all, since creation, which would include the time before the Word, Who was God, was made flesh (in other words, Jesus came). And if He was the Word made flesh, then rejecting the Word would be rejecting Him.

Again, Romans 1:20 - For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

If you reject God, you inevitably reject Jesus too. They are of the same essence, and Jesus was there at the same creation, existing before coming to Earth with the name of Jesus. It states in John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And in John 1:14 - The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

That Word becoming flesh was Jesus. He is the Word.

Jesus always existed as the Word of God, Who was with God at creation and Who was God. The Word becoming flesh was Jesus in man form. Therefore, people could always reject Jesus, through rejecting the Word of God, who is Jesus.People could always reject God, and by rejecting Jesus, they are indeed rejecting God. And by rejecting God's Word, they are indeed rejecting Jesus, the Word of God. This spans beyond time, since the Word of God, which is Jesus, is as eternal as God is eternal.

Apply the Word, man.

Peace.

 

[prove-all]

I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed;
the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken,and the other left.
Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins,

one half woman(church), one half people(man), one half total man?,

harvested at end of mans age ?, this is [not] a soon to be rapture before his comming.



seed or sons of father God, or sons of the devils seed

 

[MultilingualMessenger]

Will any answer satisfy you in what I give with Scripture?
Are you not ignoring truth by not looking at both sides of the issue with Scripture on this topic?
Why are you so defensive in holding to a view that you cannot explain as being good and just?

I've explained, you didn't like it. There are no "both sides", there is God's side. I don't look for answers from man, so your answer doesn't have to satisfy someone who wasn't yearning for it. You're the one who seeks man's answers.

One needs the Word of God to back them up.

I've only sided with the Word.

God sends rain on the just and the unjust. God died for us while we were yet sinners. Jesus said to the Father, "forgive them for they not not what they are doing." God is not willing that any should PERISH but that all should come to repentance. God so loved the world. God is love. God is good. God is holy. God is just, fair, and right in His judgments. God's judgments can be explained by using real world examples. God is logical and orderly.

Exactly. Forgive them, for they know not. Not forgive them, because they knew and chose sin anyway. Jesus Himself alluded to the fact that God notifies. They know not. Solution: let them know. Simple.

Since the beginning of sin there was only two possibilities for mankind: life as offered by Christ or death. It was not eternal life in heaven or eternal life in hell.

That's actually what that means. Eternal life in Heaven is the life offered by Christ. Eternal death in Hell is the other option.

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

What do you think "never see death" means, other than eternal life?

Oh, good. Then we can all just turn our brains off and ignore our moral compasses and follow the next Jim Jones to our deaths. Sorry, I am not buying your ignoring of what is morally right. That to me is evil. You ignore what is good and right and you might as well forget about God because God is good and He is not evil.

I'm not selling that. That's not in my stock.

What I so clearly and unequivocally said was that if people go by their own morals and not God's (which is what is meant by "they went their own way"), that they would be victims of themselves. Nowhere did I even imply that God was evil. You are the one who time and time again align yourself against God's morals, because you decide to render Him unfair and unjust.

Sorry, I must have missed the inserted words you tried to place into Philippians 2:9-11. There is nothing about how they are confessing out of the flames. You have to put that in there (with your imagination) in order for it to be true. Yes, they confess under the Earth. I said I believe in an actual Hell. But the Bible does not teach that it is a fiery torture chamber, though. The Lake of Fire is what has real flames. That is what the Richman had seen and felt from the great gulf fixed between him and Abraham. For Torments (Hell) sits atop of the Lake of Fire and will be cast (dropped down) into it after the Judgment is carried out. This is obvious from looking at various verses in Scripture. Hell is an island and the sea is the Lake of Fire.

I'm not sure what else you think "under the Earth" means, or where it implies exactly when, only that it's obviously after judgment. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

No, that doesn't make any sense. Not logical. Nobody. I mean nobody can carry on a normal conversation if they are held down in fire. When a person is held over fire, they scream. Do you think you can carry on a conversation with someone like that? If you do, then it would not be based on reality or anything.

Not reality on Earth, but that person was already punished for how he lived. After your life on Earth, you keep existing. The laws of Earth don't have to apply to Heaven or Hell, nor do they. They are a different reality altogether. We can not conceive of it without seeing it.

Nope. Jesus said, he that believes in me well never die. Eternal being tortured means they have life still. For why do you think they call the Lake of Fire the Second Death? Because it is related to the First Death. In other words, you are trying to make the Second Death unrelated to the First Death. Which would be wrong. For both deaths are related in the fact that they completely destroy one into being ashes.

Please do not call me bro. I find it disrespectful if someone says that while they are in a strong heated disagreement with me about something. Brother.... yes. Bro... no. It's like saying .... dude.

I'm sorry you feel this is a heated disagreement. I was calm. *shrug* But I won't call you bro if you don't like that.

Believers will never die, but have eternal life. This is correct. There's a difference between abundant life and mere existence. We get to escape death, though the wages of sin is death, because we have accepted salvation, not existence in Hell.

Psalm 119:75
"I know, O LORD, that thy judgments are right, and that thou in faithfulness hast afflicted me."

You gotta believe that. I do. His judgments are right. That even applies to Hell, eternal torment which those people gave themselves over to and chose, and the everlasting Paradise of Heaven.

So you believe I am teaching another gospel because I believe the Lake of Fire is the Second Death like it states?

No. You don't believe that Hell is eternal.

As for other people in other religions being nice: Yes, they can be nice to you and many other people. The problem is that they have not been nice to God and reconciled their sin with Him. But that still does not change the idea of you rejoicing in heaven while you remembered this person doing nice to you while they burn in agonizing pain for all eternity. What if it was an unbelieving family member you loved intensely? Can you truly be comforted in Heaven knowing they are suffering extreme amounts of torture for all time? If you do, then I would have to question your lack of love and goodness then.

In Heaven, there is no grief. Period. I won't rejoice in Heaven because people went to Hell; they won't be on my mind while I'm in Heaven. My greatest love, Jesus, will be there. And God is truly a God of Comfort. I don't lack any love and goodness, and I don't wish Hell on anyone. If you are good, you don't want bad in Heaven. If you love, you let people make their own choices. It's really that simple. We are to love our enemies and pray for them, as you said. I agree with that. But that does not mean that by allowing them their choice of Hell, if they so choose, is unloving of us or God, or that we should mentally soften their consequence. I am not doing bad against an enemy by not making their choice of eternity for them, or by not grieving their choice.

See, that is what is the problem with Christianity today. They think morality is not consistent with God and His Word. That is just absolute crazy none sense. How in the world do you know the good guys from the bad guys when you turn on the news or watch a movie? You know the good guys from the bad guys by what they do. So yes, if you watch a movie and you see a man torture people for the rest of their lives for them breaking a small little law, then you know that such a person is a bad guy and not a good guy. It's morality 101. How can you not know about these basic things?

Your frustration is not with me. Your frustration is with man's moral inconsistency with God, which is what I pointed out before. God's morals are better than ours. And again, His ways are not our ways. So your conception of "Morality 101" can be total hogwash to God. Just accept that. God's morals are better than ours.

Actually you wouldn't be in Heaven (anyways). No believer will spend eternity in Heaven. Believers will spend eternity with Christ (God) in the Eternal New Earth. Also, showing you are not worried for your family's well being is not a good sign. We should always be concerned for those who could be lost.

Correct, there will be a New Earth. Thanks man. Correction is always good.

It's not that I'm not worried, it's that I won't be worried when it's too late and we're already in Eternity. I don't misplace my worry. I am concerned for those who could be lost, not those who are lost already from their own choices. Your example was about someone who was lost already in Hell. That's why I was not concerned. It still remains that I wouldn't be concerned about my family or anyone else after they've already made their choice. While they are here to make the choice is where the concern belongs, and you have no basis to say I don't show concern for those people. I've only given you what I would likely feel in Heaven, not how I feel now on Earth about the potentially lost.

Scripture says we can know God's judgments. If not, then His Word is broken then.

Knowing the judgment and judging the judgment while not knowing are not the same.

May God bless you.
And may His love shine upon you.


Source Used:
What is the scriptural basis for the conditionalist doctrine of hell? - Christianity Stack Exchange

Thanks man. God bless you too. Glad we could end on a good note. Especially since you thought it was heated. No hard feelings. I only speak in love. I already prayed for you as well.

I also want to confess that I shouldn't have responded, since I said I wouldn't and went against what I said. We are to confess our sins to our brothers. James 5:16 - Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

I hope you can forgive, as our merciful and loving God does.

Take care.

 

[Jason0047]

Uh, OK...

Mat 9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

Luk 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

1Co 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

From God's perspective, when a person's physical body dies, they are not dead to Him (where they are dead and gone from our perspective), but they are merely sleeping / dreaming (which suggests that they are consciously aware of another perception of reality). For the body that has died to God looks like it is merely sleeping from His perspective because He can easily raise that body back to life again (If He so desires). So to God, nobody is really dead (Unless they are to face the Second Death). For whenever Jesus spoke, most people misunderstood Him. To read literally into what Jesus said is to easily misunderstand Him (Hence, why everyone laughed when he said the girl was sleeping). But from His perspective, her body was just sleeping whereby it needed to be awakened or resurrected.

Besides, we see a clear story of Jesus telling us about the afterlife with Lazarus and the Richman. We also see that John visits Jesus in a Heavenly place. John also sees lots of saints there and we also see saints crying for vengeance with the breaking of the fifth seal, etc.

 

[Yet]

A slight point here. Can the church be wrong at all about anything? Of course they can. The clerical caste, tithing, to name two. They are dead wrong on these yet they cling to them with tenaciousness as they do about eternal torture.

 

[Jason0047]

...

It saddens me to think that there is no possible way you could be wrong and that you are not even willing to be a good Berean about it (Who were open minded and searched the Scriptures to see whether those things be so or not). That would sort of be like a criminal police detective looking at a crime scene, rolling his eyes, tossing his half eaten donut over his shoulder, and then making a quick rash decision on closing the case without even looking at any of the evidence objectively.

Again, Psalm 119:75 says we can know God's Judgments. We can know that God's Judgments are good. Not out of some blind devotion. To know something is good implies that you can explain why it is good. You really can't say Eternal Torture is good. Thereby Psalm 119:75 cannot be properly applied for your life. You can't truly know God's Judgments are good because one of His Judgments is hanging over your head like a big mystery that you cannot unravel or explain even remotely by a longshot. For why is Eternal Torture good? The Scriptures say we will be guided into all truth. Why has no believer on the Eternal Torment belief been guided into the truth of not explaining the goodness behind torturing people for all time for a finite amount of crimes?

As for morality: How is God's morality different than the morality that man knows about? Is not murder, lying, stealing, cheating, and hating all considered not good things even by many men's standards today? See, the Antichrist is going to come (After the Rapture) and he is going to deceive certain believers who have had pleasure in unrighteousness. He is the man of sin. If one does not know what is a sin or what is wrong then they are in serious trouble. We as believers have to know what is good and right. Our very souls depend upon it. The fact, that we are not in agreement on basic morality disturbs me greatly. I grew up knowing what is right and wrong. I didn't need a Bible to tell me when somebody did evil. It's not like some kind of mystery that needs to be explained. Again, what you are telling me is that everything is a mystery. I can't know about God's Judgment of punishing people. I can't know about God's morality. I can't know. I can't know. No. That is not what the Bible teaches. Believers grow in the knowledge of God's Word. We are not in service to some mystery religion. We can know God and know His good ways (and we can easily explain to others why they are good; And why He is good).

 

[Jason0047]

A slight point here. Can the church be wrong at all about anything? Of course they can. The clerical caste, tithing, to name two. They are dead wrong on these yet they cling to them with tenaciousness as they do about eternal torture.

Yes, I was thinking about this earlier. I was thinking about how Jesus had a problem with the majority of churches in Revelation 2-3. Yes, we are not to forsake fellowship.... and yes.... we are to come together for the worse and not for the better.... but I don't think God wants to be ignorant of what many churches teach today, though.

 

[phil112]

It saddens me to think that there is no possible way you could be wrong and that you are not even willing to be a good Berean...........

What's a good berean? Is that like a good Christian? You either are or you ain't. I see your ears are still itching.

 

[MarcR]

I am not questioning whether or not Jesus should be blamed for a person refusing Jesus or not. I am talking about the type of punishment involved. Do you think it is loving, merciful, and good for God to torture people for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes? Yes or no?

What I think is unimportant since God is not held to my standards; I am held to His!

Do you think it is loving, merciful, and good for God to torture people for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes?

No! But I don't think that happens. I think Jesus died to prevent that from happening.

 

[Jason0047]

What's a good berean? Is that like a good Christian? You either are or you ain't. I see your ears are still itching.

Again, insults aside, a Berean is described in Acts 17:11. They were more noble because they had an open mind and searched the Scriptures to see whether those things are so or not.

 

[Jason0047]

What I think is unimportant since God is not held to my standards; I am held to His!

Do you think it is loving, merciful, and good for God to torture people for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes?

No! But I don't think that happens. I think Jesus died to prevent that from happening.

Again, a way of escape does not change the horribleness of the Judgment itself. That is a diversion tactic. We have to deal with the problem itself of why you think it is a good Judgment on the behalf of God to torture people for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes. Can you offer a real world example or show an example where God punished a certain group of His enemies in such a way before?

 

[maxwel]

Again, a way of escape does not change the horribleness of the Judgment itself. That is a diversion tactic. We have to deal with the problem itself of why you think it is a good Judgment on the behalf of God to torture people for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes. Can you offer a real world example or show an example where God punished a certain group of His enemies in such a way before?

1. I have this CRAZY, CRAZY notion that maybe Hell is supposed to be the opposite of a good time.

2. I'm almost certain that God's decisions about eternity have nothing to do with what I think.
How I feel about them is irrelevant.

That's the whole problem.
It's kind of arrogant, as tiny, fragile, finite mortals, created from something as lowly as dirt,
TO SIT IN JUDGEMENT OF THE MOTIVES OF GOD.

God does what he does.
What YOU think about it, and what I think about it, is meaningless.

 

[dcontroversal]

It saddens me to think that there is no possible way you could be wrong and that you are not even willing to be a good Berean about it (Who were open minded and searched the Scriptures to see whether those things be so or not).).

That is rich coming from you......you should take your own words and apply them.........!

 

[Jason0047]

1. I have this CRAZY, CRAZY notion that maybe Hell is supposed to be the opposite of a good time.

2. I'm almost certain that God's decisions about eternity have nothing to do with what I think.
How I feel about them is irrelevant.

That's the whole problem.
It's kind of arrogant, as tiny, fragile, finite mortals, created from something as lowly as dirt,
TO SIT IN JUDGEMENT OF THE MOTIVES OF GOD.

God does what he does.
What YOU think about it, and what I think about it, is meaningless.

Uh, no. We can know God's Judgments (Psalm 119:75). For know ye not that ye shall judge angels?

Besides, how are you not going to be deceived by some false spirit or false messiah if you don't know what is good and right? How do you know the good guys from the bad guys if not for knowing about basic morality? See, what you are basically telling me is that we as believers cannot know what is good and right. But God is not the author of confusion. Yet that is what you want me to believe. In fact, this is a huge problem because it can make one to be a victim. For those who followed Jim Jones turned off their brains and good morals and killed themselves. Are you saying we can do the same in other areas of our lives or on holdig to certain beliefs?

I say thee nay.

 

[Jason0047]

That is rich coming from you......you should take your own words and apply them.........!

Do you just want to insult again? Or do you want to actually contribute to discussing about this topic with the Bible?

 

[blue_ladybug]

the only person who gets to sling insults on here is me..lol.. jk..

carry on..

*hot-foots it out of the room*

 

[Jason0047]

Anyways, one commonly misunderstood passage in regards to Eternal Torment vs. Conditional Immortality is Revelation 20:10, too. For...

What is the "Ages of Ages" in Revelation 20:10 talking about?​

Revelation 20:10 is indeed saying that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for... "the ages of ages."

Here are a few translations that express this.

"for the eons of the eons." ~ Concordant Literal New Testament
"for the ages of the ages." ~ Darby Bible Translation.
"for the aeons of the aeons." ~ The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson​

In other words, Revelation 20:10 is saying the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for the purpose of the Ages of the Ages. Meaning the Ages of Ages that are past! They are being punished day and night for the evil that they committed during the past Ages and Ages here on this Earth. For the word "for" can also be defined as "because" within the English language.

Revelation 20:10 Darby
"And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] both the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for [the purpose of] the ages of ages."

For the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are all demons who have tormented mankind for ages and ages. So they will be cast into the Lake of Fire and brimstone and will be tormented day and night and not for all eternity.

So the "ages of ages" is talking about "past ages" and not "future ages."

This is further supported by the fact that Paul says the last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Corinthians 15:26), which suggests that there were other enemies of God that the Lord destroyed before this last enemy. This then ties in nicely with Revelation 21:4 saying, "the former things have passed away." These former things that have passed away are: tears, sorrow, crying, death, and pain. For the first heaven and first earth will pass away and a new heaven and a new earth will take it's place (Revelation 21:1). For Jesus says, "I make all things new."
(Revelation 21:5).

So if Jesus is going to make all things new as He says, do we really believe Him when He says that?

 

[Angela53510]

Because there are testimonies of people who had reservations in coming to the Lord because they thought God was cruel in punishing people unfairly. However, when it was properly explained to them with lots of Scripture, they understood the Word and they received the seed of the Word into their heart and believed.

What is the scriptural basis for the conditionalist doctrine of hell? - Christianity Stack Exchange

Two things I have cherry picked out of the post of yours.

One:
Is this the reason you hold to such false doctrine? Because you have a strategy for evangelism that includes lying to people who believe that God is cruel? Instead of telling them the truth about God's perfect justice, you change the character of God so he can appease humanists who would not accept Christ without lying to them?

It seems to me that these people are walking a lie with God. Are they truly saved? I have to wonder. And how many people have you led to the Lord using this false doctrine? Really, this scares me more than a lot of your other false soteriology.

Two:

Almost everything you write here is a copy and paste from some fringe and weird websites. You constantly cry we should be Bereans and search the Scriptures, but instead, you search the internet and post stuff that men have written. And twist Scripture to your own end.

I won't go so far as to say you are purposely out to deceive people, as I think you are sincere in your beliefs. But sincerely wrong!


PS. When I came to Christ, I repented and submitted totally to God. That means I acknowledged that pretty much everyone I knew was on their way to eternal hell, just as I had been! I have been motivated to share my testimony and witness to people, knowing this fact. God's love is important, but to deny God's perfect justice is to lie about what the gospel is truly about!

 

[maxwel]

Uh, no. We can know God's Judgments (Psalm 119:75). For know ye not that ye shall judge angels?

Besides, how are you not going to be deceived by some false spirit or false messiah if you don't know what is good and right? How do you know the good guys from the bad guys if not for knowing about basic morality? See, what you are basically telling me is that we as believers cannot know what is good and right. But God is not the author of confusion. Yet that is what you want me to believe. In fact, this is a huge problem because it can make one to be a victim. For those who followed Jim Jones turned off their brains and good morals and killed themselves. Are you saying we can do the same in other areas of our lives or on holdig to certain beliefs?

I say thee nay.

Ummm.... did they forget to tell you that nobody talks like this.

: )

 

[PeterJens]

While there is semantics involved, there is also a repeated context (that one cannot ignore), though.

In fact, I believe why most hold to ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) is because they do not understand that the word "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the Bible.

I agree that the bible often uses language to emphasis a point as being an eternal reality, rather than something that actually persists as a state throughout time.

It struck me that the whole issue about Hell, could also be the Lord saying to us, what do you think is just?
I think what we think of in relationships as being certain, could equally be open to discussion. We think in terms of when we meet the Lord face to face things will all be so different and we will be perfect etc. What happens if the change is small, and relationships are like we see today. Would you send hopeless cases of those lost in sin, in pain, in the lostness of a hard heart into eternal torture? What would be the point? Revenge, purification of the soul of these people, making you feel better in some sado-masochistic ideas? Are we interested in domination, in proving our points? Is that the Kingdom we really belong to. I think this answers the question on your heart and mine above any.
I think the lake of fire is a sad, sad place where the impossible failed to be made possible. Jesus did not come to condemn or judge, but to offer hope, yet face to face, the pharisees asked for his life, a man only of peace and honesty.