55 Year Old Man Impregnates His 11 Year Old Granddaughter

[Colorful]

Oops... I just read the answer choices... I meant: "To MOTHER your sister/brother/grandchild." (she can't father it if she's a girl...)

 

[GuessWho]

For that reasoning, do you think that is why the penalty is different for killing/murdering the fetus as opposed to the mother or were you just throwing that out there?

It is possible that the jews thought in the same way and that this is why the penalty was different depending on the case.

 

[Billyd]

I suggest that we get away from the condemnation here, and place this in the hands of God.

For the family. Please let God be your Guide. Until you know his will, spend your time together, on your knees and/or face in fervent prayer. If you believe in him, your prayer will not go unanswered.

 

[Bowman]

Man, 55, sentenced to 200 years for impregnating his 11-year-old granddaughter | Daily Mail Online

I was reading the article above about a 55 year old grandfather who impregnated his 11 year old granddaughter. I thought to myself, “which is the greater evil: giving this little girl an abortion or making her give birth to her grandfather’s child?” Which do you think is the lesser evil? Do the unborn have equal right/value as the already born? What would you do if you were the mother/father of this little girl? What does it mean when the bible says “the breath of life”?

I immediately recalled Exodus 21:22-25. “If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”

Back then, when women gave birth “prematurely” it was almost always certain death for the fetus/child and many times for the mother as well (but the survival was obviously higher for the mother). If the fetus/baby dies (but the mother lives), the guy who hit her is to pay a fine. If the unborn are truly 100% equivalent to the already born, why then is it a capital offense only when the mother dies but NOT when the fetus/child dies? If all abortions are murder, why is one murder treated astronomically differently (a simple monetary fine) and the other is a capital offense? Would it be fair to say there is a HUGE distinction between the mother’s life and the fetus/child’s? Why or why not? If the unborn is not considered a living human being (but a potential human being), would it be appropriate to abort the fetus in a case where a grandfather fathers a child with his granddaughter?

Actually, the scripture that you quoted does not distinguish between injury to either the mother or fetus.

Instead, it shows both have equal value.

 

[Colorful]

Actually, the scripture that you quoted does not distinguish between injury to either the mother or fetus.

Instead, it shows both have equal value.

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no mischief follows: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine."

I understand many pro-life people make the argument that it's talking about a "premature birth" and it is in reference to the surviving baby. However, the vast majority of bible scholars interpret the text as "miscarriage" and most bibles have a footnote on "premature birth" with "miscarriage" written for it. It wouldn't make sense that the bible would talk about the ultra rare occurrences that a woman (lets target the middle of pregnancy) in her 2nd trimester gives birth prematurely and the fetus/baby survives it. Heck, even in today's technology that is quite uncommon, but we are better adapted now than we were then.

Secondly, you say it shows both have equal value. If you genuinely believe this passage does NOT distinguish between the mother or fetus, how does it show both have equal value? One would have to assume/stretch premature birth and the fetus/baby surviving in order to get the impression that both lives are equal.

 

[Colorful]

http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/37/37-2/JETS_37-2_169-184_Fuller.pdf

A good read pertaining to the Exodus law being about a "miscarriage" (for those that are uncertain if it's in reference to the mother or fetus).

 

[Angela53510]

Abortion is murder! Unless this child is truly going to kill the mother, such as an ectopic pregnancy, where the child would not live anyway, the baby needs to be carried to full term.

Adoption is a good choice, if the uncomfortable questions about parentage come up. My worst fears would be for genetic deformities caused by inbreeding and recessive, negative genes being expressed.

I worked in a school for the mentally challenged where 3 of the students had severe facial deformities and mental challenges, because the parents had been cousins. That is a big problem with this scenario.

The time for stopping babies from being born is before conception. As for the grandfather, I am glad they locked him up and threw away the key. He is totally evil to have seduced or raped his own granddaughter. I just cannot imagine a more evil thing a man could do than to rape his own children or grandchildren.

 

[Colorful]

Abortion is murder! Unless this child is truly going to kill the mother, such as an ectopic pregnancy, where the child would not live anyway, the baby needs to be carried to full term.

It's interesting how you word "Unless this child is truly going to kill the mother..." Do you word it as the child about to kill the mother as a plea of self-defense in "murdering" the "child" (terminating the tubular pregnancy)?

If murder is murder, and abortion is murder, why isn't it murder to abort a "child" if the mother has an ectopic pregnancy? If you say "because the child will not live anyway". How would you know? Although extremely rare, there have been some tubular pregnancies that carried to term.

If one truly beliefs a fetus is a living human being, then regardless of the circumstances, taking the life of an innocent living human being is classic murder.

 

[DiscipleDave]

What is God to do with this generation!!!!

Who creates life? God or satan?
The mere fact that the child became pregnant is from God.
Has it not always been known ( but this generation ignores ) That those who could not have children were considered cursed, and that those who could get pregnant were considered blessed?
This generation forgets WHO creates life?
Who decides if a person will create a life and who will not? God does that.
If a person becomes pregnant, NO MATTER what the situation is, it is God that has allowed that person to become pregnant. God creates life. satan can never create a life, he is a destroyer of life, not a creator of it. satan destroys life, he does not nor ever will create a life. Even the antichrist is not created by the devil, the antichrist is born because it is God who will allow the mother to be able to create that life.
God creates life, satan does not, humans do not.
A fertile husband and fertile wife can have sex every single day for years trying to have a baby, it is God who decides who will and who will not become pregnant. please read Abortion

^i^

 

[Colorful]

What is God to do with this generation!!!!

Who creates life? God or satan?
The mere fact that the child became pregnant is from God.
Has it not always been known ( but this generation ignores ) That those who could not have children were considered cursed, and that those who could get pregnant were considered blessed?
This generation forgets WHO creates life?
Who decides if a person will create a life and who will not? God does that.
If a person becomes pregnant, NO MATTER what the situation is, it is God that has allowed that person to become pregnant. God creates life. satan can never create a life, he is a destroyer of life, not a creator of it. satan destroys life, he does not nor ever will create a life. Even the antichrist is not created by the devil, the antichrist is born because it is God who will allow the mother to be able to create that life.
God creates life, satan does not, humans do not.
A fertile husband and fertile wife can have sex every single day for years trying to have a baby, it is God who decides who will and who will not become pregnant. please read Abortion

^i^

"Who creates life?" I believe a better worded question is, "Who gave men and women the ability to procreate: God or Satan?" In which case, the answer is God, of course! Having said that, men and women also have free will. Unfortunately, we can use this gift in an unrighteous way. In this case, I'd argue God didn't deliberately MAKE the grandfather's granddaughter pregnant, but the unrighteous use of the grandfather's free will did!! One could even say God gave the grandfather the ability to procreate but to say "God caused the girl to become pregnant" is ridiculous (in my opinion).

Humans do not create life? Gen. 9:7 "Now be fruitful and multiply, and repopulate the earth." I guess we just have to say, "Sorry God, only you can create life."

 

[Bowman]

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no mischief follows: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine."

I understand many pro-life people make the argument that it's talking about a "premature birth" and it is in reference to the surviving baby. However, the vast majority of bible scholars interpret the text as "miscarriage" and most bibles have a footnote on "premature birth" with "miscarriage" written for it. It wouldn't make sense that the bible would talk about the ultra rare occurrences that a woman (lets target the middle of pregnancy) in her 2nd trimester gives birth prematurely and the fetus/baby survives it. Heck, even in today's technology that is quite uncommon, but we are better adapted now than we were then.

There is absolutely nothing in the Hebrew of this passage (Exo 21.22) which mentions death of the unborn child.

In fact, the six other locations of the verb 'wə·yā·ṣə·’ū ' likewise do not impart death.

Further, Exo 21.23 then contrasts the life of previous passage with the 'what if' of death....and then gives the mandate that you should take a life for a life...

Secondly, you say it shows both have equal value. If you genuinely believe this passage does NOT distinguish between the mother or fetus, how does it show both have equal value? One would have to assume/stretch premature birth and the fetus/baby surviving in order to get the impression that both lives are equal.

The juxtaposed passage of Exo 21.23....if there is death...then you take a life for a life....simple.

Again....the Hebrew makes absolutely NO distinction between the life of the child or of the mother, as they are both equal...

 

[nogard]

I think it is unsafe and a risk to the girl's life to carry the child to term. Not to mention the emotional stress it could put on her. You have to think of the girl here.

 

[DiscipleDave]

"Who creates life?" I believe a better worded question is, "Who gave men and women the ability to procreate: God or Satan?" In which case, the answer is God, of course! Having said that, men and women also have free will. Unfortunately, we can use this gift in an unrighteous way. In this case, I'd argue God didn't deliberately MAKE the grandfather's granddaughter pregnant, but the unrighteous use of the grandfather's free will did!! One could even say God gave the grandfather the ability to procreate but to say "God caused the girl to become pregnant" is ridiculous (in my opinion).

Humans do not create life? Gen. 9:7 "Now be fruitful and multiply, and repopulate the earth." I guess we just have to say, "Sorry God, only you can create life."

You do not understand the Truth. There is a spirit in each living person [Flesh + Spirit = Soul/Life]
The Breath of life that is breathed into a person is the spirit that comes from God.
What then? Do you think that a spirit is created because a man and a woman copulate? What? Can a human male and a human female, create a spirit? God forbid.
There is a spirit that is inside of you, your mom and dad did not create that spirit that is inside of you. The spirit that is inside of you is immortal and can't die. That is why a spirit will either live for eternity separated from God or live for eternity with God. The spirit that is in you, comes from God, not your parents.
If God does not give a spirit that person does not become pregnant.
God decides who will get pregnant and who will not get pregnant? God decides who He will receive the Breath of life and who will not. If you are like the Bereans you will read these articles which shows many verses which prove what i am saying is the Truth. Spirit Within and also The Meaning of Life. Or don't read them, because it does not line up with what you believe the Truth to be. What the Scriptures teach is True, what men teach is false, corrupt, and wrong.

^i^

 

[Colorful]

There is absolutely nothing in the Hebrew of this passage (Exo 21.22) which mentions death of the unborn child.

In fact, the six other locations of the verb 'wə·yā·ṣə·’ū ' likewise do not impart death.

Further, Exo 21.23 then contrasts the life of previous passage with the 'what if' of death....and then gives the mandate that you should take a life for a life...







The juxtaposed passage of Exo 21.23....if there is death...then you take a life for a life....simple.

Again....the Hebrew makes absolutely NO distinction between the life of the child or of the mother, as they are both equal...

So that I know I'm understanding you, you're saying that when it says "no harm" (no death), it's a reference to the combination of the mother AND fetus?

 

[Bowman]

So that I know I'm understanding you, you're saying that when it says "no harm" (no death), it's a reference to the combination of the mother AND fetus?

That's correct.

That is why this specific example was provided...to show the equality of life between an adult (the mother) and the unborn child.

 

[DiscipleDave]

I think it is unsafe and a risk to the girl's life to carry the child to term. Not to mention the emotional stress it could put on her. You have to think of the girl here.

There is no greater love than for a person to give his/her life for another. We need to think about God here, not what the girl thinks, not what the parents think, not what the grandfather thinks, not what the Doctors think, not what the religious leaders of the day think. We should do that which is approving to God.
Who are you to say, that that little girl would not be Blessed above measure because of her child? is the cup half empty or half full? The youngest a person who has successfully delivered a child is a girl in china who was 8 years old when she had the child. Who are you to say that particular child will not bring much happiness to that 11 year old girl? this generation is always looking at the glass as half empty, the negative, NOT the positive that the glass is half full. 11 year old girl is pregnant, how terrible, how awful, she should abort, abort, abort, the sooner the better, tragedy, terrible.
Your concerned about the 11 year old child, tell me, where is the love for the child that is conceived? What did that child do wrong to deserve DEATH? God does not approve of killing any human life. Jesus would not ONLY love the 11 year old girl, but Jesus would also love the conceived child as well, would He not?
i say That God creates life, and you bulk. What then? If a person gets pregnant, God didn't know they would get pregnant? Could God have prevented that 11 year old child from getting pregnant, Yes or No? Of course He could have, He's God.
God did not allow that person to get pregnant just to kill the life that God allowed in her womb.
Again. humans can't create a spirit. All humans have a spirit. That spirit comes from God. God decides who He will give a spirit too and who He will not give a spirit too. People who do not get pregnant even though they try, are they who God decides not to give a spirit too. Those who do get pregnant, it is because God has decided to cause life to happen in that female, and has already decided to give that fertilized egg a spirit.
What then? if a person gets pregnant, God has no choice whatsoever but to give that fertilized egg a spirit? What He has no say in the matter at all? lol, you do error and know not the Truth. God decides who will and who will not get a spirit from him. God decides who will get pregnant and who will not get pregnant.
True God gave us procreation, but just because we can procreate does not mean we WILL become pregnant. God decides who will become pregnant and who will not, even though we are gifted with procreation, it is still God who decides. Man does not decide who will or who will not get pregnant. the devil does not decide that either, only God decides who will have life and will not have life, by the giving of the spirit that He gives.

^i^

 

[Colorful]

If a person gets pregnant, God didn't know they would get pregnant? Could God have prevented that 11 year old child from getting pregnant, Yes or No? Of course He could have, He's God.

What does God allowing someone to get pregnant have to do with anything? Does God allow us to sin? Yes... At times, has He intervened and stopped someone from sinning? Yes. Does He always? No. That is like someone taking a machete and decapitating everyone in your family and saying, "Who are you to say my decapitating everyone in your family will not be a blessing in your life? Is the cup half empty or half full? Could God have prevented me from decapitating your entire family? Yes or no? Of course He could have, He's God!"

God did not allow that person to get pregnant just to kill the life that God allowed in her womb.

I'm confused with this sentence... Assuming God allowed the 11 year old girl to get pregnant and her parents terminated the pregnancy (the fetus stops developing), did God not allow that? "Could He have stopped the fetus from being terminated? Yes or no? Of course He could have, He's God!" See what I did there?

People who do not get pregnant even though they try, are they who God decides not to give a spirit too. Those who do get pregnant, it is because God has decided to cause life to happen in that female, and has already decided to give that fertilized egg a spirit.

You're not understanding that God GAVE man the free will to procreate. If I get a vasectomy, that is my exercising MY free will to no longer have the ability to procreate (create life). The dependent variable is man and his free will, not God MAKING people pregnant. Just because God allows man to exercise unrighteous free will... in this case, the grandfather exercised unrighteous free will by impregnating his 11 year old granddaughter (God being the independent variable pertaining to the girl's conception)... doesn't mean that this is what He wants. That isn't to say God COULDN'T stop the fetus from developing...

What then? if a person gets pregnant, God has no choice whatsoever but to give that fertilized egg a spirit?

God has the ability to do whatever He wants. Fortunately and unfortunately, He allows us to exercise our free will (for righteousness and unrighteousness). If I see an old woman walking down the street to oncoming traffic and I run towards her, push her out of harms way, and I die... of course God could bring me back to life (or not have me killed at all)... generally speaking though, He lets things play out.

True God gave us procreation, but just because we can procreate does not mean we WILL become pregnant. .

I could agree with that. God allows people to get pregnant. No one has really argued otherwise... He allows people to get raped, murdered, sold for sex, starved, etc... I don't understand why you're not getting the concept of God allows His children to exercise free will...

 

[GaryA]

If I have the wrong understanding, what exactly is "the breath of life" then?

In 'event' terms, "the breath of life" only happened once -- when God breathed life into Adam. Thereafter, 'life' is "passed on" in the flesh.

The phrase "the breath of life" ( in this usage ) is talking about God breathing life into existance. It does not directly apply to every living human being as though God breathed life into every one of them individually. The "sense and tense" of the phrase is "the breath of God that instilled life"... ( i.e., the breath of God is where life came from )

 

[Colorful]

In 'event' terms, "the breath of life" only happened once -- when God breathed life into Adam. Thereafter, 'life' is "passed on" in the flesh.

The phrase "the breath of life" ( in this usage ) is talking about God breathing life into existance. It does not directly apply to every living human being as though God breathed life into every one of them individually. The "sense and tense" of the phrase is "the breath of God that instilled life"... ( i.e., the breath of God is where life came from )

To Adam it [God giving him the breath of life] only happened once. To all living human beings today it's happened once. Don't new born babies take their first breath as they come out of the womb? Doesn't our life end when we take our last breath? I thought breath and life were essentially synonymous.

Psalm 33:6 "By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host."

God's breath makes everything live, because life is by definition the breath of God within His living children. You're right... He did that with Adam, and now all of his children, grandchildren, etc... take that "breath of life".

 

[GaryA]

To Adam it [God giving him the breath of life] only happened once. To all living human beings today it's happened once. Don't new born babies take their first breath as they come out of the womb? Doesn't our life end when we take our last breath? I thought breath and life were essentially synonymous.

Psalm 33:6 "By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host."

God's breath makes everything live, because life is by definition the breath of God within His living children. You're right... He did that with Adam, and now all of his children, grandchildren, etc... take that "breath of life".

It is true that 'breath' and 'life' do actually "go together" in several ways; however, ...

The word 'breath' in the phrase "breath of life" ( in this usage ) does not refer to - and does not directly apply to - the "breath" a human takes while alive. It is referring to the "breath" of God - from whence life comes...

God did not "breath the breath of life" into you and me directly; rather, He breathed life into Adam . . . It is that 'life' - which is "in the flesh" - that was then passed on to all of humanity.

In the verse you are referring to, the "sense and tense" of the word 'breath' is a bit different than what I am talking about here.