What word stumbles many in 1 Tim. 2:12, speaking of woman not to ”teach or have...”?

[GreenNnice]

What word stumbles many in 1 Tim. 2:12, speaking of woman not to ”teach or have...”?

Authority !

That word is misunderstood.

How does Jesus use the word, ”authority” in Scripture”

What, truly, is ”authority?”

In my church, the pastor is definitely not in authority, He speaks on Sundays, but he has,no more authority, or, ” power over me than the man in the moon. God alone, through His Son, Christ Jesus, whose Spirit lives in me, teaches me ALL.things, right. 1 Corinthians teaches us this truth, the Spirit of truth , who is the ”Holy Spirit” in our 'temple,' He reveals/teaches all things to us.
So how in praytell prailines in cream a way does a woman preacher have even one THREAD of authority over me?
I'll tell you how: There's no ”how!”


Now, here is where authority is in my church: THE BOARD .

The board members vote and have the final say. Now, here is food for thought, my pastor came to a recent board meeting
and wanted to say his say for why he saw our church splitting from our AOG denomination, citing that we turn some off by being categorized . The pastor's INFLUENCE was seen, but ”influence” and ”authority” are different words, in a biblical sense,especially. LOL, one influences, or, can, we say ”persuades” while the other AUTHORIZES a judgment.

Again, Jesus put it best when He said that no one has authority over Him but His Father in He
heaven. This IS true authority, a pastor does not EVER tell a congregation rhat either they go to heaven through THEMSELF as the way, the truth , life. But, Jesus, yes, Jesus did excercise ”that” authority, right

John 19:11 Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it ... ... Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered ... //bible.cc/john/19-11.htm - 19k

Revelation 6:8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its ... I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! ... These two were given authority over one-fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword and famine and disease and ... //bible.cc/revelation/6-8.htm - 21k

Luke 4:6 And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority ... ... The Devil said to Him, "I will give You their splendor and all this authority,because it has been given over to me,and I can give it to anyone I want. ... //bible.cc/luke/4-6.htm - 18k

Revelation 2:26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to ... ... To all who are victorious, who obey me to the very end, To them I will give authority over all the nations. ... //bible.cc/revelation/2-26.htm - 18k

Matthew 8:9 For I myself am a man under authority,with soldiers ... For I myself am a man under authority,with soldiers under me. ... because I am under the authority of my superior officers, and I have authority over my soldiers. ... //bible.cc/matthew/8-9.htm - 19k

Luke 7:8 For I myself am a man under authority,with soldiers ... For I myself am a man under authority,with soldiers under me. ... because I am under the authority of my superior officers, and I have authority over my soldiers. ... //bible.cc/luke/7-8.htm - 19k

Numbers 11:16 The LORD said to Moses: "Bring me seventy of ... ... men of Israel, who are in your opinion men of weight and authority over the people ... And the Lord said to Moses: Gather unto me seventy men of the ancients of ... //bible.cc/numbers/11-16.htm - 20k

Zechariah 3:7 "This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'If you will ... ... "This is what the LORD of Heaven's Armies says: If you follow my ways and carefully serve me,then you will be given authority over my Temple and its courtyards ... //bible.cc/zechariah/3-7.htm - 20k

Psalm 144:2 He is my loving God and my fortress, my stronghold and ... ... He is my strength, and my Rock; my high tower, and my saviour; my keeper and my hope: he gives me authority over my people. ... //bible.cc/psalms/144-2.htm - 18k

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in ... ... came near and said to them, "All power in Heaven and over the earth has been given to me. ... came to them and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been ... //bible.cc/matthew/28-18.htm - 17k

Judges 9:29 If only this people were under my command! Then I ... ... If only authority over this people were given to me. ... //bible.cc/judges/9-29.htm - 18k

2 Samuel 22:44 "You have delivered me from the attacks of the ... ... You rescue me from a hostile army; you preserve me as a leader of nations; people over whom I had no authority are now my subjects. ... //bible.cc/2_samuel/22-44.htm - 20k

Psalm 18:43 You have delivered me from the attacks of the people ... ... You rescue me from a hostile army; you make me a leader of nations; people over whom I had no authority are now my subjects. ... //bible.cc/psalms/18-43.htm - 18k

John 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them ... ... was with them, I protected them by the authority that you ... the power of your name, the name that you gave me. I watched over them, and none of them, except one ... //bible.cc/john/17-12.htm - 19k

Romans 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you ... ... Because of the privilege and authority God has given me,I give each of ... to every one of you, through the grace given to me,not to have an over-high opinion ...

 

[GreenNnice]

Re: What word stumbles many in 1 Tim. 2:12, speaking of woman not to ”teach or have..

1 Timothy 2:12 -- ” I suffer not a woman to teach or have authority over a man but to be silent.”

Now, this sentence construction is what's known as a ”split infinitive,” and, it goes like this:

An infinitive = ”to” with a verb, like, ”to run,” or, ”to slice,” for examole. But, a,sit infinitive is like, hmm, look above, that explains it....

I will put the infinitive together, ”to teach (authority) or to have (authority)...”

The parentheses words explain things nicely. There is ”to have authority” so there MUST be an equal opposite reaction on the other side of the ”or.”

Or else what, green? The sentence is incongruent.

Ok, so, now, we MUST delve deepee into understanding that preaching is NOT someone having authority over another, maybe, ”influence,” but NOT authority or power to MAKE a judgment and decision that DIRECTLY AFFECTS someone's life !

Only One has that power God Himself, ”He is all and all.”

So, what does it mean to ”teach authority over a man,” or, ”to have authority over a man.?”.

What does this mean? ”woman not to teach (over a man) is especially disconcerting. Like I said, it is not only SENSELESS but incongruent as well to think ”to teach” means a woman is NEVER TO.TEACH OVER A MAN. LOL, don't make me laugh.

Besides, ”senseless,” what else is it, green?

Incongruent

Ok, I will stop there and let you have the floor, that is ”the persuasion” over The group, but in no.ways is your OPINION on here, ”autbority.”
Only God has authority over you, He has authority over ALL. ALL things His, all power, His, all glory, yep, His too, at least, think.twice before not doing something for the glory of God. In fact, NEVER do nothing not for His glory !

”Whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God,” Scripture says.

 

[Abbe]

Re: What word stumbles many in 1 Tim. 2:12, speaking of woman not to ”teach or have..

1. God the Father, 2. Jesus the Christ, 3. The Holy Spirit, 4. The husband, 5. The wife.6. The children. Thats how I was brought up. I don't know , but I would never go to a church that had a woman preacher. Thats just me, and my OP only, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[GreenNnice]

Re: What word stumbles many in 1 Tim. 2:12, speaking of woman not to ”teach or have..

1. God the Father, 2. Jesus the Christ, 3. The Holy Spirit, 4. The husband, 5. The wife.6. The children. Thats how I was brought up. I don't know , but I would never go to a church that had a woman preacher. Thats just me, and my OP only, nothing more, nothing less.

Why? Does she have authority over you?

It says in Scripture what's been said....

This word is the most misunderstood word in Scripture: authority.

How does a woman ”teach authority” over a man in a church? This is how one rightly ”divides” 1 Timothy 2:12.
How does a woman ”have authority” over a man in a church?

She does not, as you said (indirectly), Christ is head of the church , this means Christ is over all, this does or, does not speak reference to the word , ”authority.”

Then, after Christ is man , then, after that, is woman.

Again, ab,, what needs to be reconciled is what this ”structure” mentioned, of Scripturemeans?

Here is a question for you. Who gives Paul his ”service,” from this verse, who uses (authorizes?) Paul.to do this service of ”preaching the gospel of Christ?”

1 Timothy 1:12 ”I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service.”

Why can God ONLY call a man to church leadership , note the (double) meaning here?

Why can't a woman be called to church leadership, and, in fact, as my OP states, is being a pastor or teacher giving someone CONTROL or AUTHORITY over your life? Who reveals all truth to us? You said He in your post, ab,, milady.
The Holy Spirit, right, John 16:13, all truth we learn (are teached ) is ONLY from the Spirit of truth, who is He in our temple.

So, IF God is the only one who can reveal truth to us, isn't it true that man HAS no control.over a woman as that man preaches, for the Spirit uses us ”pure vessels,” convicts the world (unbelievers) of sin, righteousness, judgment.

Talk about power ! ALL power is His. A woman pastor has no authority over a man by preaching the word of God.. Only God .
In this hierarchal order of 1. Christ, 2. man, 3. woman , is ORDER, there is in no.way a man having AUTHORITY over a woman, and, this goes for a husband to a wife.
Women are to ”submit” to their husbands, as Scripture states. But, man, what's he to do, he is to 'rule' over them with the 'fear of God' in Him.
So, that said, God GIVES man order or ”rule” over his wife but, in no.way, shape, or, form, does that man have ANY AUTHORITY OVER HER , that is ALL God's . He has authority over ALL. But, yes, a man is the heas of the house, in very LOOSE terms, for his wife, indeed, submits to Him but he is to submit to Christ

I like to bring up.THIS misunderstood verse, too:

” Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”

Again, in a state of marriage, a husband rules OVER His wife But, we are NOT in a state of marriage context for 1 Timothy 2:12? No, ww are here ,: Paul is speaking to his study, Timothy, of how to run a church, telling Timothy the ORDER and way things are to be , and, this is Bible ties too.
It was absolutely UNHEARD OF! for a woman to be in charge of a church congregation/group/meeting in Bible times.

God has authority over all; we live in a VERY different time now than back in Paul's day, in 60.A.D. era. It's utterly laughable, for me, to see so many bash the MANY women preachers God's called to speak to ALL today, even , in a sense, judging them. But, that is for another thread.

So, does what I say hang with ya? Or, am I tightening my own noose?

Controversial topic. I get that. But, if the controversies are not discussed then truth cannot be known.

So, again, I ask.you, when Paul.tells a woman not to ”teach authority,” over a man, does this not mean that she is not to teach she is FIRST in line to get a leadership position in the church, be it, youth leader or pastor, or, even, door greeter.

And, a woman is not to ”have authority over a man” either, tnis means she is not only to refrain from PERSUADING chur,h body she should be FIRST CHOICE to.lead a church , as a pastor, youth pastor, etc. , she is , plain and simple, not to.have AUTHORITY of the CHURCH over an equally qualified man.

Keep in mind after verse 12 is verse 13, in it Paul.does not speak of ”authority,” but, instead, he speaks of order.
I'm going to list all of 1 Tim. 2, for your sifting, as He leads you in your reasoning during reading. The Lord leads

1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people—2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

8 Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. 9 I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

11 A woman a should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; b she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

 

[Abbe]

Re: What word stumbles many in 1 Tim. 2:12, speaking of woman not to ”teach or have..

What??????? I missed what you are trying to say, Sorry, 1 more time, God the Father, Then Jesus , The H.S., The Man or Husband,Then the Wife, then the Children. Woman NO, Preaching in Church, they have no authorty in Church, Husband and wife, in the home, they should talk all things over, the husband has the final say so. To sum it up= As a Man, Husband, Woman, Wife, Child, Children-All follow God The Father, Jesus The Christ, The Holy Sprit, then the Man or Husband.If your an unmarred woman that would be your Dad, that could tell you what to do, then your Mother.Sorry , not putting this very well, thats how it was when I was growing up

 

[GreenNnice]

Re: What word stumbles many in 1 Tim. 2:12, speaking of woman not to ”teach or have..

ab, milady, Paul is EXHORTING the men of the church to GET BUSY !
"lift hands, pray everywhere..." Right?

He wants MEN to TAKE AUTHORITY !

He wants women to dress nicely, to be discreet, but, in no way, is this context in 1 Tim. 2 early verses leading to a SLAVERY STATE for a woman to NEVER be called by God to be a pastor. Sorry, Scripture is clear, there is NO WHERE in Scripture anywhere (find it for me, if you think different) that God says : "Men are only to preach, women never to preach."

Again, Paul, too, NEVER says what God says above, not that it matters, Paul's words are straight from God, but he does NOT say it either, anywhere. EVERYWHERE in 1 Tim. 2, it is APPARENT that Paul is DISGUSTED with the men for showing a lack of what?

Authority !

It culminates in 1 Tim. 2:12, with Paul imploring both sexes to understand that Paul suffers (permits) not a woman to have authority or teach authority OVER a man, that is, Paul does not permit a woman to usurp the ORDER , or, supercede the order of authority, which is man THEN woman, who both, of course, are one under God, and, 'one,' in more ways than one, as Gal. 3:28 says, they are 'one in Christ Jesus.' Different topic, kind of , but it's mentioned.

What then makes you think NO preaching for women ? IF authority is given to men to do but men do not lift holy hands, and, men do NOT pray everywhere, and, an EQUALLY QUALIFIED women is following that calling, like Paul did, when he was Saul, on the road to Damascus, who is NEXT in order?

1 Tim. 2:13 tells us WHO is next in the order

"For man was formed first and then WOMAN."

She is NOT devoid of ability to teach and preach, she is just second in line to a man.


Do you follow, ab?

The Lord leads, you know

 

[Angela53510]

Re: What word stumbles many in 1 Tim. 2:12, speaking of woman not to ”teach or have..

Well, this is the kind of doctrinal error that comes out of using English as the basis for your beliefs.

The word in 1 Tim. 2 translated as "authority" in some versions, is a called a hapax legomen.

That means it only occurs ONCE in the whole Bible. So your other comparisons are not valid.

The word is "authentein" in Greek - αύθενείν. Some translators put it as

"To act on one's authority, to exercise authority, to have mastery, to be dominating."

But all these definitions come from non-Biblical sources and there is nothing to compare in the Bible to see how Paul is using the word.

Contemporaneous sources (writings that were written as the same time as the Bible) also say this word could be "murderer, ruler or master." In fact, it is probably actually a vulgar form of another word, autodikein (to take justice into one's own hand.).

Really, you have to look at the context in which 1 Timothy was written. Paul was writing to Timothy who was in Ephesus. Now Paul had already had big problems with the silversmiths in Ephesus, in Acts 19. Because Artemis, a fertility goddess was who they worshiped, and the silversmiths were making big money off the tourist statues and paraphernalia they were hawking, and they did NOT want to see Jesus and the unseen God taking over.

The priestesses of Artemis were pretty wicked women, and there was a cult of them who "ruled over men", subjected them to humiliation and slavery and assigned them female tasks." Now we do not know if it was these women, but their worship practices were pretty undignified, including temple prostitution. Worship was noisy and frenzied.

It is likely some of these women either became Christians, or more likely tried to infiltrate the church, and carried their worship into the services. I don't think that kind of thing should be tolerated by women or men.

I think many scholars would probably lean to "domineering" as the way to translate this verse.

It would be strange to think that Paul, who appointed Phoebe as a deacon, and Junia as an apostle, and said,

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:28

would suddenly start making statements that should apply to the church for all time, which were totally contrary to his statements in other books.

So my thought, is read in context, this verse is instructing Timothy not to let the ex-priestesses dominate and take over the church.

If you want to check this out further, I suggest the book "I Suffer Not a Woman" by Richard Clark Kroeger and Catherine Clark Kroeger. It gets very deeply into the Ephesus culture AND the Greek.

However, I do like you basis premises that women should be allowed to preach. Just back it up a bit with the Greek and you will be really contributing to the future, (I hope!) of the church.

 

[GreenNnice]

Re: What word stumbles many in 1 Tim. 2:12, speaking of woman not to ”teach or have..

What are they teaching that's authoritative, or, how are they (women) having AUTHORITY, or, as you.put it, anj, ”murder,” or, ”domination.”

For someone who says they don't agree with my.tboughts, except idea (premise) of ”women can preach to men,”.hmmm..

Let me think, yep, that's long enough you just dominatec my thread with a post that completely SUPPORTS what I' m being led by Him to say !

Anyhoo, yes, ”authentein” is used one time in Scripture of New Testament, HERE, it's not quite obvious, it is ABSOLUTELY obvious that Paul is disgusted with the men, as I said earlier here, in another post. Paul is setting these men up.for a thorough scorching, er, chastising, rebuking.

Can you imagine Paul here , he may be speaking in calm words, inflectuation of tone or 'voice' is a wee bit difficult to determine, but, inside he is incensed at the men! He realizes women are the weaker (minded) species, or, sex, as, he proves in 1 Timothy 2:14, ”Eve was the one who TRANSGRESSED, who went ACROSS the line. LOL, man just followed, afterall.Adam was sitting next to Eve when she ate the fruit. Adam sinned !
It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out, woman erred, but MAN ERRED more !
Sin is sin, but God had mercy on the woman, Eve, because God knew her ”weakness.” Man was NOT deceived, he willfully, knowingly took and ate the fruit. Now , where am I going with all.this?

God points out in the very beginning of time WHY the order falls on man, he wasn't deceived.
Now, just because Eve transgressex, the Bible is clear, Adam sinned !

There are going to be churches that need a transgresser to lead them, like, ahem, an ”Eve,” or, (much) more often than hot, churches are to be led by ”Adams.” Sure, they SIN, but they can ask God for forgiveness and, like God forgave Cain, who, yes, was of the ”evil one,” but who also LEARNED from his error of killing brother by God's mercy on Cain , with mark on forehead + Cain was blessed with a wife, kids, and, here's the kicker of God's forgiveness, ”Cain built a city.”

So, what did you get out of all this non ”hipeiko” and ”exousia” talk, anj

 

[Cobus]

Re: What word stumbles many in 1 Tim. 2:12, speaking of woman not to ”teach or have..

Angela, Junia was a MAN not a woman. And Paul did not appoint apostles, GOD DID! Eph 4:11. Junia was NOT an apostle, He was only of note AMONGST the apostles... You twist the word a bit with no evidence.
Phebe was a SERVANT (also the word Deacon is servant) but it is not as the DEACON IN CHURCH) Deacons are tableservers. Women has to show their godlyness with GOOD WORKS, Like servants do works!

Paul was NEVER confused or contradicting. It is us with our TWISTING the truth that creates contradictions and confusion. The Bible is clear... 1 Corinths 14 speaks to BRETHREN.... God appoint MEN in church offices. No confusion, no contradiction and no problem. You either accept it, or you do not.

I cannot change your mind, specially if the HEAD TWISTER (Satan) wants you to believe otherwise. They twisted the Word in Paul's Time already. It is just a shame when a woman speak in church. And if the person wants to be ignorant about this fact. That this COMES FROM GOD, then let him or her be ignorant... 1 Cor 14.

Julia is woman Junia(Junias) is MAN!

Phebe was a servant not a deacon. But sometimes the word deacon was used as servant, because deacons are servants! (Men) of ONE woman.... Deacons in church are ALL MEN. Servants in Christ is men and women. NOTHING wrong for a woman to do GOOD SERVANT WORK, like DEACONS do... It is their way of witnessing their godlyness.... GOOD WORKS, not GOOD WORDS!

 

[Cobus]

Re: What word stumbles many in 1 Tim. 2:12, speaking of woman not to ”teach or have..

Abbe GOOD for you. I walk out if a woman speaks, I guess I follow the Word of God (1 Cor 14) as well. And I know God has a church that follow HIM IN HIS WORD 100%. May HE also join me to that CHURCH! Amen!

 

[PeteWaldo]

Re: What word stumbles many in 1 Tim. 2:12, speaking of woman not to ”teach or have..

Authority !

That word is misunderstood.

How does Jesus use the word, ”authority” in Scripture”

What, truly, is ”authority?”

In my church, the pastor is definitely not in authority, He speaks on Sundays, but he has,no more authority, or, ” power over me than the man in the moon.

Are you a preterist, partial preterist or futurist?

 

[PeteWaldo]

Re: What word stumbles many in 1 Tim. 2:12, speaking of woman not to ”teach or have..

What does this mean? ”woman not to teach (over a man) is especially disconcerting. Like I said, it is not only SENSELESS but incongruent as well to think ”to teach” means a woman is NEVER TO.TEACH OVER A MAN. LOL, don't make me laugh.

You are certainly not the first to desire to conform the church to the world, rather than the reverse.
Yet the church is hurling headlong into apostasy, while women shriek and dithering in babble tongues from the pulpit on the conservative side, and once women took the pulpits on the liberal side of the church ordination of homosexual pastors and Bishops. The result of being out of order. Head coverings worked for women for the first 1950 years of the church, but then the church got smarter than that.

 

[PeteWaldo]

Re: What word stumbles many in 1 Tim. 2:12, speaking of woman not to ”teach or have..

He wants women to dress nicely, to be discreet, but, in no way, is this context in 1 Tim. 2 early verses leading to a SLAVERY STATE for a woman to NEVER be called by God to be a pastor. Sorry, Scripture is clear, there is NO WHERE in Scripture anywhere (find it for me, if you think different) that God says : "Men are only to preach, women never to preach."

You twisted it. If a woman is so called, I believe she should answer that calling, and preach to women. In a Sunday school class, or home bible study for women, for example.

 

[Elizabeth619]

Re: What word stumbles many in 1 Tim. 2:12, speaking of woman not to ”teach or have..

My boyfriend is taking college classes to continue his degree. One of his teachers is a woman.

She has no authority over him as a superior, she isn't his boss but is his teacher. She is to teach according to the textbook she teaches from He is to learn. She has been given the authority by the college to teach others If he wants to pass this class he is to listen to her. Do as she says.

She does have a type if authority. Just like a female teacher in the church.

If one teaches. We listen. A teacher is one who educates. That is a type of authority.

 

[GreenNnice]

Re: What word stumbles many in 1 Tim. 2:12, speaking of woman not to ”teach or have..

Are you a preterist, partial preterist or futurist?

None of the above.

You twisted it. If a woman is so called, I believe she should answer that calling, and preach to women. In a Sunday school class, or home bible study for women, for example.

Read my other posts. It's obvious what I'm saying-,and, yes, Paul speaks of women speaking/teaching women in 1 Timothy 4-- women CAN pastor a man . Note the nice 'verb' usage, too, PW. NO authority is neither attained or lost a person in church by a woman paztoring them.
How's that for twisting the Word ?

My boyfriend is taking college classes to continue his degree. One of his teachers is a woman.

She has no authority over him as a superior, she isn't his boss but is his teacher. She is to teach according to the textbook she teaches from He is to learn. She has been given the authority by the college to teach others If he wants to pass this class he is to listen to her. Do as she says.

She does have a type if authority. Just like a female teacher in the church.

If one teaches. We listen. A teacher is one who educates. That is a type of authority.

Yes, elizzy, exactlizzily , as, too, my example of the church board having authority over final.judgments of church election, including recently our church paztor trying to pute a vote of confidence (which failed) into.our church dismembering from AOG. Now, the autbority to choose choices of electiin of our pastor was done 8 years ago after having happened only one time before that, and, the board's first choice was rejected by a CONGREGATION VOTE , the 2nd choice won, barely, by a 2/3 majority.

So, yes, your teacher has authority to teach your boyfriend about subjects, but, your teacher has NO authority over BF's decision to learn, BF must choose that choice.

So, a man listening to a woman pastor has no strange, mystical, hypnosis from her to be under her control. Her authority solely lies in preaching the Word of God just as a man would do, in leading a church congregation.
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I do not twist the Word, by yhe way, Peter, I hope and pray not, I understand the ”false teachers” ultimate location, per Rev. 19. Not good, not good, not good..... I pray He who is in me leads me to.reveal His truth, giving all glory to Him. Glory to.God , all glory, His

::::::::::::::::::::
Cobe, you, too, like ab,, in a very subtle way support my argument. I'm not sure how He leads you but you are a great exhorter, like me, and, a few others, keep on posting whatever He posts you inside you
Lol, too, when you exhort, my spiritual gifts test #1 or #2 highest gift (or, other top.was ”faith.”), do so.as He leads you. Pray, give thanks, and praise Him daily, He is Lord, ”...you follow Me.” John 21:22 .

 

[GreenNnice]

Re: What word stumbles many in 1 Tim. 2:12, speaking of woman not to ”teach or have..

You are certainly not the first to desire to conform the church to the world, rather than the reverse.
Yet the church is hurling headlong into apostasy, while women shriek and dithering in babble tongues from the pulpit on the conservative side, and once women took the pulpits on the liberal side of the church ordination of homosexual pastors and Bishops. The result of being out of order. Head coverings worked for women for the first 1950 years of the church, but then the church got smarter than that.

A woman pastor preaching to men is 'conforming to the world.' ????
Haven't you ever learned something from a woman teacher, PW ?????????

My boyfriend is taking college classes to continue his degree. One of his teachers is a woman.

She has no authority over him as a superior, she isn't his boss but is his teacher. She is to teach according to the textbook she teaches from He is to learn. She has been given the authority by the college to teach others If he wants to pass this class he is to listen to her. Do as she says.

She does have a type if authority. Just like a female teacher in the church.

If one teaches. We listen. A teacher is one who educates. That is a type of authority.

Yes, the word 'authority' is just that authorizing a judgment, and, a woman pastor in no way does anything more than PREACH THE WORD OF GOD AND CHRIST CRUCIFIED . She has no more control over your thinking than the man in the moon. YOU subcribe to God, the Spirit of truth LEADS your life. Your BF is under no one's authority, he is voluntarily taking a class in college and he can get right up and leave that class any ole time he likes. Now, if he does, that , the teacher is likely going to say something to him. "You get back here or you will get an 'F,' but she does NOT have the authority over his life. Over his grade? Sure. But, not your BF's life.
A pastor is NOT to condemn someone if they do not believe in God, the Holy Spirit CONVICTS us, believers, and, non-believers, alike, in a Love way that is all His own. We do NOT have the authority as pastors to authorize someone to believe or not or do anything at all. Does 'influence' = 'authority'? Is a good question, the answer is 'no.'

You twisted it. If a woman is so called, I believe she should answer that calling, and preach to women. In a Sunday school class, or home bible study for women, for example.

No, women teaching women, which is in 1 Tim. 4 is speaking of lay-women, if you will, those who are NOT called to pastorship. As far as teaching goes, I have been taught by a woman teacher in the past I'm sure but I don't even remember it. I asked you that question so you can understand God does things differently sometimes, He is God, 'great is the mystery of godliness,' and, NO ONE can know God's thoughts but God. Know one knows your own thoughts except YOU and God, unless you let them be known to others. And, God knows your thoughts before you even think them.

So, yes, I agree, women can be called, but they CAN be called to more than just teaching other women, they can be called to preaching, to both men and women

What you thought was 'twisted' should be this, so, you're right, I left out a key 'pastor' noun: Women pastors can teach men.

I think i had it something like--and i didn't pull that quote from you, PW--women can teach men. No ! Paul is clear as Cobe said--but Cobe, you are helping my argument, or , at least, arguing an issue that I AGREE with you on. Women are to ASK their husbands at home about things of the service, not in church. Women, in general, speaking again of 'lay-women,' are to be silen and in submission to God at the church, listening for His Word for their life And, yes, women are to 'submit to their husbands' as Scripture dutifully notes too .

-----------

That all said, and, God calls all, those who think that Joyce Meyers (I don't care about your stinkin' disbelief doctrine either ! ) is not called, that Paula White is not called, then THINK AGAIN.... The Lord leads those who have chosen Him; they've chosen Him. Now, if scandal comes out like Jimmy Swaggart and such, THEN, you can say, 'Green, buddy, eat some CROW ! ' But, not now

So, the word 'authority' is key here in this thread.

What does it REALLY mean to 'teach authority over a man,' and, 'to have authority over a man.?'

The Greek is kind of helpful, as Ab pointed out but not all the way, the Lord reveals truth to us, remember

 

[GreenNnice]

Re: What word stumbles many in 1 Tim. 2:12, speaking of woman not to ”teach or have..

Maybe I should have titled my thread, what does the word 'authority,' mean to you?

piperflyer told us what 'supercede' meant to her, that works for me, although, nilE (sigh, I hate to admit it when she's right ) is right, too, about Christ's righteounsness, which was always there in Him, for He is God alone, but we are imputed the righteousness of Christ once we choose Him after He having chosen us .
And, things are not 'more certain' with the spiritual law, piperflying, but, 'certain,' as we are to follow Him, we are NO longer under laws , like how many besides the 10 laws of Moses, aren't their like 600+ ceremonial laws out there. But, no, we are NOT under those laws anymore, ANY of them, we are under Christ and under Christ alone, He is The Law.

Oh, wait, I am talking about my other thread now, well, let's put it in a woman pastoring perspective, we are in authority of Christ alone, and, who knows us but ourselves and God. No one, 1 Cor. 2 tells us this truth in its last verses. And, NO ONE knows the 'thoughts of God.' So, Jesus said Himself that NO ONE had authority over Him, to do even one thing to Him except His father in heaven.

So, HOW in prailines and cream does some man speaking on a pulpit have ANY authority over you ?? He has NO authority ! You are convicted by Christ to leave your worldly ways, you are taught by Christ, through His Spirit, to ALL truths you learn.
God simply uses men AND WOMEN as 'pure vessels' to do His work. They have NO authority over no one, a woman pastor has no more authority over you than that man in the moon, staring at you from the night sky. None, nada, zipola

This is another thought to go with, 'teach authority over a man' . Alas ! What does this really mean? We can get to the 2nd part in a while but, for now, tell me, what does 'teach authority over a man' mean? Does it mean a woman pastor should not teach authority over a man (Whatever that means, LOL)?

Or, does it mean a lay-woman, who is just a member of the church doing nothing but going to church with her husband, being silent, learning in submission.

And, IS 1 Tim. 2:12 even speaking in the most remotest of senses of this being directed at woman pastors? Where? Do show

I can see where lay-women, if you will, are being told to take a backseat, so to speak, to their husbands, so, he can be the man of the house, so he can lift up holy hands, lifting up Christ, praying everywhere, as 1 Tim. 2:8 says.


I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. 1 Tim. 2:8

Look at the word, 'will,' ! Paul wants these men to WAKE up and do what they are NOT doing. Right? Paul wouldn't be speaking like this if the majority were already doing this, I don't think. Careful, green's opinion, the Lord leads you, right?

And, if you go by the English translation only of this word, are you rightly dividing the truth ?

Greek defininition of authority = violent domination, since it is a word 'authentein,' that is the real word, or 'authente' which is the real root word, which means auth=auto and 'ente' = imposing force (I think, I may have this part not quite right).

So, Paul would be saying he does not want these women in church excercising force that they are FIRST in the order.

Alas! What does verse 13 say? It speaks of, drum roll, please, ORDER "For adam was formed first and then Eve."

So, this is not an absolute. Man is not the only one in the order of God's economy, there is someone else too, and, it's 'woman.' God's desire, or, will, is for men to 'stand in the gap,' and, for women to be quiet, submissive, listening to their husbands learn who, in turn, will teach them at home, per 1 Cor. 14:34-35 and ,also, 1 Tim. 2: 11-12.
Will things be best this way? Sure. God says so. But, He is clear that there is an order of authority and that women are not to teach they are SUPERIOR to men.

"Teach authority over a man" means what then? Keep in mind, too, that the word is NOT 'teaching,' it is 'teach.'

 

[Powemm]

Re: What word stumbles many in 1 Tim. 2:12, speaking of woman not to ”teach or have..

Authority-
God is the authority
man and woman - EQUAL
when both have given all their authority over to God
God gives the authority of Jesus over to them
Both become a reflection of God to each other
Man turns and looks at the woman - he sees Jesus "who is" the authority in her- he submits to "His"
Authority , not because the vessel he's chosen is a woman, but because it is "Jesus" the man recognizes as the image coming from her.. Gods chosen vessel

same goes for women ..
I think some of us are looking at the outside of the cup, rather than in it ..

 

[Angela53510]

Re: What word stumbles many in 1 Tim. 2:12, speaking of woman not to ”teach or have..

Cobus, Junia was a WOMAN. Here is a link to the latest research on both the gender and whether she was an apostle or not.

Junia, A Female Apostle

Translation bias is a big issue, and even John Piper and Wayne Grudem, who are complementarians can find no cases of the name Junia being a man in all concurrent and ancient Greek writings or in the Bible because it is a hapax logemen.

As for Phoebe (please spell it correctly) being a servant, I say Amen! to that. Because ALL the deacons were servants. The word in Greek is dikonos διάκονος, which means, according to Strong's #1249:

servant/attendant/teacher/pastor/deacon/deaconness/minister/servant.

It is the same word, used in 1 Tim 3:10, 13; Phil. 1:1; 1 Tim 3:8, 12.

All these verses the word is translated as "deacon" according to Strong's.

This is a blatant example of translational bias. If Paul had wanted to say "servant" he would have used the word "doulos" or slave/servant. This word is used in other places. But when referring to the office of DEACON, Paul always used diakonos. But since King James and many translators following believed women could not be in leadership, nor be deacons, they only used the word "servant" once - and that is in the case of Phoebe, a woman. Pure and simply a bad translation. If it is deacon in all the other places it should be deacon in the case of Phoebe.

And the plural form of diakonos in 1 Tim 3:8-11 could likely be deaconness, simply because the plural of the word in Greek, means both women and men.

Nor is anyone here addressing the OP's original topic, which was the use of the word "authority" in 1 Tim 2:11-12, which is actually authentein in Greek, and does NOT mean authority, but rather "domineering". Which no Christian should be.

Cobo you are either Southern Baptist or Catholic, and if SBC, then we must learn from the sad "twisted" example of Texas. Such horrid things going on in my former denomination, that many have left that denomination, or formed their own state conventions. The take over of the SBC was engineered and planned and documented. The result is that women who were experts, and more qualified than men have been fired, men who did not agree with the extreme right wing stance of the Paige Patterson and his henchmen have been forced to sign documents they did not agree with, if they were close to retirement, or leave and form new Seminaries.

How sad that mis-translations of the Bible have resulted in women being relegated to being barefoot and pregnant, instead of being able to be part of the movement to spread the gospel. Dating back to SBC missionary Lottie Moon in the 18th century, who fought to be allowed God's call to China, and led thousands to the Lord, she was not allowed to preach to men in that country.

The result was the men would stand outside and listen and many were converted. One man became an evangelist as a result of Lottie Moon's ministry, and led 10,000 people to the Lord.

Thinking strictly from a numbers point of view. If God wants the gospel to go forth into all the word, (Matt. 28:18-20), then why would he exclude over 50% of the population of the world from being able to preach and teach the word of God.

"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Go therefore andmake disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,[SUP]20 [/SUP]teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”" Matt. 28:18-20

"And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherdsand teachers, [SUP]12 [/SUP]to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ," Eph. 4:11-12

I am not seeing any qualifications for gender in either scripture.

Saying women cannot be in authority is an example of misogyny at its worst. No wonder the spread of the gospel has been slowed down in the last century, and North America is not a leader in missions anymore, but instead are paying the price for wrong doctrine, and wrong use of the Biblical text.

 

[Angela53510]

Re: What word stumbles many in 1 Tim. 2:12, speaking of woman not to ”teach or have..

Just an addendum for those who don't read links. This is part of the text of my link, early in my last post.

"Junia was a female apostle. This is the preferred view. The evidence is authoritative, compelling, diverse, and objective. Junia has been demonstrated to be a woman based on the testimony of early manuscripts, recorded statements of various church leaders through the 12th century, and research performed by many other scholars attesting to the name Junia or Julia existing in ancient times.The evidence for a male reading was based on later manuscripts subject to the interpretations of scribes who thoughtIounian was a male and to the statement by one early church leader who was also mistaken as to the correct gender of Prisca. Computer-generated searches could find no example of a male Junias in ancient times nor is there any evidence proving that Junias was ever a contracted form of a longer name.
Junia and Andronicus were apostles. Numerous contemporary and past scholarship, lexical definitions, grammatical construction, and scriptural examples all provide the strongest support that episemoi en tois apostolois, naturally meant they were "outstanding among the apostles," just as Chrysostom so elegantly declared."

If you want to get into the Greek, contemporaneous sources, etc, here is the link, again.

Junia, A Female Apostle