Deciphering Zechariah 14:5
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And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,.... Where he often was in the days of his flesh, and from whence he ascended to heaven, Lu 21:37 but here he did not appear at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem; wherefore this must refer to a time to come; and seeing it is certain that he will stand in the latter day on the earth, at the time of the resurrection, and will come down from heaven in like manner as he went up; it seems very probable that he will descend upon that very spot of ground from whence he ascended, Job 19:25. The Jews, e have a notion, that, at the general resurrection of the dead, the mount of Olives will cleave asunder, and those of their nation, who have been buried in other countries, will be rolled through the caverns of the earth, and come out from under that mountain. This is what they call "gilgul hammetim", the rolling of the dead; and "gilgul hammechiloth", the rolling through the caverns. So they say in the Targum of So 8:5.
"when the dead shall live, the mount of Olives shall be cleaved asunder, and all the dead of Israel shall come out from under it; yea, even the righteous, which die in captivity, shall pass through subterraneous caverns, and come from under the mount of Olives.''
John Gill
"when the dead shall live, the mount of Olives shall be cleaved asunder, and all the dead of Israel shall come out from under it; yea, even the righteous, which die in captivity, shall pass through subterraneous caverns, and come from under the mount of Olives.''
John Gill
just look at bits from commentaries on the preceding chapter
, 13
it's always about the promise for Israel.
the gentiles were grafted in AFTER.
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
.......................................
Zechariah 13:1
In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
In that day there shall be a fountain opened - Zechariah often repeats, "in that day" Zechariah 12:3-4, Zechariah 12:6, Zechariah 12:8-9, Zechariah 12:11; Zechariah 13:1-2, Zechariah 13:4; Zechariah 14:6, Zechariah 14:8, Zechariah 14:13, Zechariah 14:20, resuming his subject again and again, as a time not proximate, but fixed and known of God, of which he declared somewhat. It is "that day" which "Abraham desired to see, and saw it" John 8:56, whether by direct revelation, or in the typical sacrifice of Isaac, "and was glad:" it was "that day" which "many prophets and kings and righteous men desired to see" Matthew 13:17; Luke 10:24, and in patience waited for it,: "the" one "day of salvation" of the Gospel.
He had spoken of repentance, in contemplation of Christ crucified; he now speaks of forgiveness and cleansing, of sanctification and consequent obedience. The "fountain shall be" not simply "opened," but shall remain open. Isaiah had already prophesied of the refreshment of the Gospel. "When the poor and needy seek water and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I, the Lord, will hear them, I, the God of Israel, will not forsake them. I will open rivers in high places and fountains in the midst of the valleys" Isaiah 41:17-18; here it is added, "for sin. and for uncleanness."
Barnes
............................
Some refer this to the destruction of the city by the Romans. It was on the mount of Olives that Titus posted his army to batter Jerusalem. Here the tenth legion that came to him from Jericho was placed. Joseph. De Bello, lib. 6 c. 3. It was from this mountain that our Lord beheld Jerusalem, and predicted its future destruction, Luke 19:41, with Matthew 24:23; and it was from this mountain that he ascended to heaven, (Acts 1:12), utterly leaving an ungrateful and condemned city.
And half of the mountain shall remove - I really think that these words refer to the lines of circumvallation, to intrenchments, redoubts, etc., which the Romans made while carrying on the siege of this city; and particularly the lines or trenches which the army made on Mount Olivet itself.
Clarke
...........................
Divers things were foretold, in the two foregoing chapters, which should come to pass "in that day;" this chapter speaks of a "day of the Lord that cometh," a day of his judgment, and ten times in the foregoing chapters, and seven times in this, it is repeated, "in that day;" but what that day is that is here meant is uncertain, and perhaps will be so (as the Jews speak) till Elias comes...
In this chapter we have, I. Some further promises relating to gospel-times. Here is a promise of the remission of sins (v. 1), of the reformation of manners (v. 2), and particularly of the convicting and silencing of false prophets (v. 2-6). II. A clear prediction of the sufferings of Christ and the dispersion of his disciples thereupon (v. 7), of the destruction of the greater part of the Jewish nation not long after (v. 8), and of the purifying of a remnant of them, a peculiar people to God (v. 9).
Henry
, 13it's always about the promise for Israel.
the gentiles were grafted in AFTER.
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
.......................................
Zechariah 13:1
In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
In that day there shall be a fountain opened - Zechariah often repeats, "in that day" Zechariah 12:3-4, Zechariah 12:6, Zechariah 12:8-9, Zechariah 12:11; Zechariah 13:1-2, Zechariah 13:4; Zechariah 14:6, Zechariah 14:8, Zechariah 14:13, Zechariah 14:20, resuming his subject again and again, as a time not proximate, but fixed and known of God, of which he declared somewhat. It is "that day" which "Abraham desired to see, and saw it" John 8:56, whether by direct revelation, or in the typical sacrifice of Isaac, "and was glad:" it was "that day" which "many prophets and kings and righteous men desired to see" Matthew 13:17; Luke 10:24, and in patience waited for it,: "the" one "day of salvation" of the Gospel.
He had spoken of repentance, in contemplation of Christ crucified; he now speaks of forgiveness and cleansing, of sanctification and consequent obedience. The "fountain shall be" not simply "opened," but shall remain open. Isaiah had already prophesied of the refreshment of the Gospel. "When the poor and needy seek water and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I, the Lord, will hear them, I, the God of Israel, will not forsake them. I will open rivers in high places and fountains in the midst of the valleys" Isaiah 41:17-18; here it is added, "for sin. and for uncleanness."
Barnes
............................
Some refer this to the destruction of the city by the Romans. It was on the mount of Olives that Titus posted his army to batter Jerusalem. Here the tenth legion that came to him from Jericho was placed. Joseph. De Bello, lib. 6 c. 3. It was from this mountain that our Lord beheld Jerusalem, and predicted its future destruction, Luke 19:41, with Matthew 24:23; and it was from this mountain that he ascended to heaven, (Acts 1:12), utterly leaving an ungrateful and condemned city.
And half of the mountain shall remove - I really think that these words refer to the lines of circumvallation, to intrenchments, redoubts, etc., which the Romans made while carrying on the siege of this city; and particularly the lines or trenches which the army made on Mount Olivet itself.
Clarke
...........................
Divers things were foretold, in the two foregoing chapters, which should come to pass "in that day;" this chapter speaks of a "day of the Lord that cometh," a day of his judgment, and ten times in the foregoing chapters, and seven times in this, it is repeated, "in that day;" but what that day is that is here meant is uncertain, and perhaps will be so (as the Jews speak) till Elias comes...
In this chapter we have, I. Some further promises relating to gospel-times. Here is a promise of the remission of sins (v. 1), of the reformation of manners (v. 2), and particularly of the convicting and silencing of false prophets (v. 2-6). II. A clear prediction of the sufferings of Christ and the dispersion of his disciples thereupon (v. 7), of the destruction of the greater part of the Jewish nation not long after (v. 8), and of the purifying of a remnant of them, a peculiar people to God (v. 9).
Henry
Azal (אצל), or Azel, is the location mentioned in Zechariah 14:5 in bibles that use the Hebrew Masoretic Text (MT) as the source for this verse.
In bibles that follow the Greek Septuagint (LXX) rendering, depending upon the source manuscript used, Azal is transcribed Jasol (ιασολ, pronounced Yasol), Jasod (a corruption of Jasol), or Asael (ασαηλ):
These very different translations from two authoritative sources obscure a clear understanding of Zechariah 14:5. Another obscurant factor is an almost universal ignorance, existent for many centuries until now, of what and where Azal is, or was. This is largely due to the fact that no known writing authored prior to the late 19[SUP]th[/SUP] century clarifies this mystery.
During the period 1873-1874, Charles Clermont-Ganneau, a renowned linguist and archaeologist in Palestine, explored many tombs in a valley immediately south of Jerusalem that the local Arab peasants called Wadyâsûl. Based on linguistic evidence and its proximity to Jerusalem, Clermont-Ganneau proposed that Wadyâsûl is Azal. Today, the Arabic name for this valley is Wadi Yasul (wadi is the Arabic word for river, or valley); and Israeli authorities, in apparent agreement with Clermont-Ganneau’s discovery, named the valley in Hebrew, נחל אצל (Nahal Etsel): nahal (נחל) means river, or valley; and the Hebrew spelling of Etsel (אצל) is identical with the Hebrew spelling of Azal (אצל).
Consequently, it is now common knowledge among Jerusalem’s locals that Wadi Yasul/Nahal Etsel is biblical Azal. Online examples of this include:
[can't load or link to image - http://zechariahfourteenfive.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/jerusalem-with-azal.png]
And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Zechariah 14:5, King James Version
Zechariah 14:5, King James Version
In bibles that follow the Greek Septuagint (LXX) rendering, depending upon the source manuscript used, Azal is transcribed Jasol (ιασολ, pronounced Yasol), Jasod (a corruption of Jasol), or Asael (ασαηλ):
The valley of my mountains shall be blocked up; and the valley of mountains shall be closed up even to Jasod [Jasol/Azal]. It shall be blocked up as it was in the days of the earthquake in the days of Ozias [Uzziah] king of Juda. … Zechariah 14:5, LXX, first English translation by Charles Thomson, Secretary to the first United States Congresss, published 1808
These very different translations from two authoritative sources obscure a clear understanding of Zechariah 14:5. Another obscurant factor is an almost universal ignorance, existent for many centuries until now, of what and where Azal is, or was. This is largely due to the fact that no known writing authored prior to the late 19[SUP]th[/SUP] century clarifies this mystery.
During the period 1873-1874, Charles Clermont-Ganneau, a renowned linguist and archaeologist in Palestine, explored many tombs in a valley immediately south of Jerusalem that the local Arab peasants called Wadyâsûl. Based on linguistic evidence and its proximity to Jerusalem, Clermont-Ganneau proposed that Wadyâsûl is Azal. Today, the Arabic name for this valley is Wadi Yasul (wadi is the Arabic word for river, or valley); and Israeli authorities, in apparent agreement with Clermont-Ganneau’s discovery, named the valley in Hebrew, נחל אצל (Nahal Etsel): nahal (נחל) means river, or valley; and the Hebrew spelling of Etsel (אצל) is identical with the Hebrew spelling of Azal (אצל).
Consequently, it is now common knowledge among Jerusalem’s locals that Wadi Yasul/Nahal Etsel is biblical Azal. Online examples of this include:
- An American Girl in Jerusalem (3rd paragraph): “This is the Azel Valley mentioned in Zechariah 14:5 in reference to the earthquake that occurred during King Uzziah’s reign around 760 B.C.”
- City of David Jerusalem Segway Tour Company (2nd paragraph): “At the foot of the ridge is the deep channel of Atzal River (Zechariah 14:5), which advances toward the Kidron Valley. Its Biblical name was preserved by the Arabs as Wadi Yasul”
(A panoramic view of the Azal Valley from its headwater in the Jerusalem Peace Forest to its juncture with the Kidron Valley at the foot of the Mount of Olives is viewable from 0:21 – 0:28 in this City of David YouTube video) - Wikipedia: Jerusalem Peace Forest: “[The Jerusalem Peace Forest] was a location of the biblical Etsel river mentioned in the book of Zechariah (Zechariah 14:5) (currently only a riverbed is left in place)”
- Wikipedia (Hebrew version): נחל אצל (Nachal Atzal): “Atzal River (Arabic: Wadi Yasul) is one of the tributaries of the Kidron Valley southeast of Jerusalem, between the Armon Ha'Natziv ridge and the neighborhood of Abu Tor, in the Peace Forest. … This name originates in the prophet Zechariah’s end-time prophecy, ‘[content of the LXX version of Zechariah 14:4-5]‘. The biblical name of the river was preserved by the Arabs as Wadi Yasul.”
- Israel Antiquities Authority, Excavations and Surveys in Israel, Jerusalem, Nahal Azal
- Tombs in Nahal Azal
- Digital Archaeological Atlas of the Holy Land, Site 353104995: Nahal Azal
[can't load or link to image - http://zechariahfourteenfive.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/jerusalem-with-azal.png]
hi crossnote...ya, gill is repeating the idea the jews had that when they died, on resurrection day they would literally roll through tunnels around the earth from whever they were buried and rise up from the ground in Jerusalem.
that's why they try to be buried there - so they won't get hurt from all that rolling.
that's all gill is saying....passing on that fable.
that's why they try to be buried there - so they won't get hurt from all that rolling.
that's all gill is saying....passing on that fable.
crossnote, here is the literal translation from the other thread:
The second sentence is exactly what happened during at least one landslide on the Mt of Olives, and is very close to what Josephus wrote about the landslide that clogged up the kings' gardens during King Uzziah's reign.
The verb that is translated 'split' in most bibles can also be translated 'rend' or 'tear apart', which is exactly what's happened. The evidence proves that.
The third sentence refers, I think, to the former land form at the summit of the Mt of Olives that collapsed and is now in the Kidron Valley. Based on the geography of the mountain now, that landform had to have faced northwest and southwest. So the way I interpret that part of verse 14:4 is that north- and south-facing halves of the mountain fell. The word that is translated 'remove' in the King James, as best as I can discern, refers to dropping. The word in the LXX is the same word used to describe Jesus' head dropping when he died on the cross.
And his feet stand in that day upon the mountain of olives that faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives will tear apart from its eastward half, a vehemently great chaos westward; and the north- and south-facing halves of the mountain summit will fall. And the valley of my mountains will be closed up and filled in as far as Azal, as it was closed up during the earthquake in the days of Uzziah, king of Judah. …
Zechariah 14:4-5, LXX, Apostolic Bible Polyglot, less literal translation
Zechariah 14:4-5, LXX, Apostolic Bible Polyglot, less literal translation
The second sentence is exactly what happened during at least one landslide on the Mt of Olives, and is very close to what Josephus wrote about the landslide that clogged up the kings' gardens during King Uzziah's reign.
But I think I have found the key to this passage, and will quote for this end the following passage from Josephus, Antiq., book 9., chap. 10., being a part of the history of Uzziah: “The king was highly nettled at this, and threatened to put them to death if they spoke a word more. Immediately the earth trembled, and the roof of the temple opened, through which a beam of the sun darted full upon the face of the king, who from that instant became a leper. This prodigy was followed by another: near a certain place before the city, named Eroge, the one half of a mountain that looked westward was torn from the other half, and rolled for the space of four furlongs, till it stopped to the eastward of it, by which means the road was blocked up, and the king’s gardens covered with rubbish.
Descriptive Geography and Brief Historical Sketch of Palestine, Joseph Schwarz, pp. 263-264, (1850)
Descriptive Geography and Brief Historical Sketch of Palestine, Joseph Schwarz, pp. 263-264, (1850)
The verb that is translated 'split' in most bibles can also be translated 'rend' or 'tear apart', which is exactly what's happened. The evidence proves that.
The third sentence refers, I think, to the former land form at the summit of the Mt of Olives that collapsed and is now in the Kidron Valley. Based on the geography of the mountain now, that landform had to have faced northwest and southwest. So the way I interpret that part of verse 14:4 is that north- and south-facing halves of the mountain fell. The word that is translated 'remove' in the King James, as best as I can discern, refers to dropping. The word in the LXX is the same word used to describe Jesus' head dropping when he died on the cross.
It could also be allegorical similar to Micah 1:3, which describes an earthquake’s contribution to Samaria’s destruction:
For behold, the Lord goes forth out of his place, and he will go down and walk upon the heights of the earth. And the mountains will be shaken from beneath him
Micah 1:3-4, 6, LXX, Apostolic Bible Polyglot
For behold, the Lord goes forth out of his place, and he will go down and walk upon the heights of the earth. And the mountains will be shaken from beneath him
Micah 1:3-4, 6, LXX, Apostolic Bible Polyglot
Zech 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.Zech 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zech 14:3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zech 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zech 14:5 And ye shall flee [to] the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, [and] all the saints with thee. That does not fit the context of vv1-3 i.e. when Jesus walked this sod.
Zech 14:3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zech 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zech 14:5 And ye shall flee [to] the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, [and] all the saints with thee. That does not fit the context of vv1-3 i.e. when Jesus walked this sod.
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crossnote...i know dispensationalism is really tempting.
and there's nothing that says the prophet was not also looking to eternity - most of them did
none of them looked for a future 1,000 years...not one.
but please consider this:
Zechariah 12
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zechariah 13
1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
Zechariah 14
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
these are ALL talking about the SAME event
it all happened with Christ at the First Advent and the Outpouring at Pentecost.
i believe 70AD is in Zechariah also (but more on that later)
John 4
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
John 4
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
John 7
37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
.................
Dave (i think) made reference to an earthquake, and the Cross - It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit."
look:
Zechariah 12
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
John 19
The Crucifixion
So they took Jesus, 17and he went out, bearing his own cross, to the place called The Place of a Skull, which in Aramaic is called Golgotha. 18There they crucified him, and with him two others, one on either side, and Jesus between them. 19Pilate also wrote an inscription and put it on the cross. It read, “Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews.” 20Many of the Jews read this inscription, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and it was written in Aramaic, in Latin, and in Greek. 21So the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate, “Do not write, ‘The King of the Jews,’ but rather, ‘This man said, I am King of the Jews.’” 22Pilate answered, “What I have written I have written.”
23When the soldiers had crucified Jesus, they took his garments and divided them into four parts, one part for each soldier; also his tunic.c But the tunic was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom, 24so they said to one another, “Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it to see whose it shall be.” This was to fulfill the Scripture which says,
“They divided my garments among them,
and for my clothing they cast lots.”
So the soldiers did these things, 25but standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” 27Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.
The Death of Jesus
28After this, Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfill the Scripture), “I thirst.” 29A jar full of sour wine stood there, so they put a sponge full of the sour wine on a hyssop branch and held it to his mouth. 30When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
Jesus’ Side Is Pierced
31Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away. 32So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him. 33But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water. 35He who saw it has borne witness—his testimony is true, and he knows that he is telling the truth—that you also may believe. 36For these things took place that the Scripture might be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken.” 37And again another Scripture says, “They will look on him whom they have pierced.”
ya?
is it possible?
to at least place MOST of prophecy at the First Advent?
if you read Daniel 9 you will see the very same structure as Zech 14.
it's not first this, then that, then this, then that in sequence.
it's telling of the whole event, in a single unbroken passage.
and there's nothing that says the prophet was not also looking to eternity - most of them did
none of them looked for a future 1,000 years...not one.
but please consider this:
Zechariah 12
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zechariah 13
1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
Zechariah 14
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
these are ALL talking about the SAME event
it all happened with Christ at the First Advent and the Outpouring at Pentecost.
i believe 70AD is in Zechariah also (but more on that later)
John 4
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
John 4
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
John 7
37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
.................
Dave (i think) made reference to an earthquake, and the Cross - It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit."
look:
Zechariah 12
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
John 19
The Crucifixion
So they took Jesus, 17and he went out, bearing his own cross, to the place called The Place of a Skull, which in Aramaic is called Golgotha. 18There they crucified him, and with him two others, one on either side, and Jesus between them. 19Pilate also wrote an inscription and put it on the cross. It read, “Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews.” 20Many of the Jews read this inscription, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and it was written in Aramaic, in Latin, and in Greek. 21So the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate, “Do not write, ‘The King of the Jews,’ but rather, ‘This man said, I am King of the Jews.’” 22Pilate answered, “What I have written I have written.”
23When the soldiers had crucified Jesus, they took his garments and divided them into four parts, one part for each soldier; also his tunic.c But the tunic was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom, 24so they said to one another, “Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it to see whose it shall be.” This was to fulfill the Scripture which says,
“They divided my garments among them,
and for my clothing they cast lots.”
So the soldiers did these things, 25but standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” 27Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.
The Death of Jesus
28After this, Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfill the Scripture), “I thirst.” 29A jar full of sour wine stood there, so they put a sponge full of the sour wine on a hyssop branch and held it to his mouth. 30When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
Jesus’ Side Is Pierced
31Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away. 32So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him. 33But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water. 35He who saw it has borne witness—his testimony is true, and he knows that he is telling the truth—that you also may believe. 36For these things took place that the Scripture might be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken.” 37And again another Scripture says, “They will look on him whom they have pierced.”
ya?
is it possible?
to at least place MOST of prophecy at the First Advent?
if you read Daniel 9 you will see the very same structure as Zech 14.
it's not first this, then that, then this, then that in sequence.
it's telling of the whole event, in a single unbroken passage.
Hosea 1
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
10Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
Hosea 2
21And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth;
22And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel.
23And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.
Hosea 3
4For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
5Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.
Romans 9
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
............
they CAME back out of captivity!
and the election were saved.
just as He said.
its right there!
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
10Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
Hosea 2
21And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth;
22And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel.
23And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.
Hosea 3
4For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
5Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.
Romans 9
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
............
they CAME back out of captivity!
and the election were saved.
just as He said.
its right there!
No disrespect crossnote, but I really hate repeating this stuff over and over. I hope you will understand. If you are interested in my viewpoint you can read it here: The Popular Fable: Weighing the Evidence | Deciphering Zechariah 14:5 . The first few paragraphs should cover it.
Dave, so what you are saying, if i may cut & paste from your site and put some spaces in is this (which i agree with) - 70AD IS included in the passages, just the same way Daniel 9 covers the First Advent; the Cross and 70AD.
its natural that the prophets covered all of these events because they are all connected - for israel.
the Messiah would come, He would be received by the remnant, rejected by the apostates, and the Covenant Curses would fall, the old Covenant closed up, the New established.
what is more important than any of that? NOTHING ...nothing at all....until the Final Day.
right?
..............
"In regards to the first aspect, it can be argued that the event described in Zechariah 14:3 occurs at the Messiah’s second advent (cf. Revelation 16:14,16; 19:11-21).
Popular fable adherents believe that this futuristic scenario establishes a definitive context for all of Zechariah 14 that proves all of its events occur in the future as well.
Prima facie, this conclusion seems to be reasonable and unavoidable.
However, when the next two verses (Zechariah 14:4-5) are thoroughly scrutinized within a factual context that clearly shows that all but one of those events occurred in the past (which scrutiny this study accomplishes), that reasoning becomes completely invalid.
A temporal discontinuity also exists between a futuristic interpretation of Zechariah 14:3 and the preceeding two verses (Zechariah 14:1-2), which describe events identical to those that happened during the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. (i.e., city conquered and plundered by a consortium of armies and auxiliaries from throughout the empire; women raped; many enslaved, some freed).
There is no legitimate reason to ignore that very weighty reality that is so accurately described in Zechariah 14:1-2, in order to project the fulfillment of this passage into the future based on an assumed scriptural context, that, as noted here and demonstrated throughout this study, has no basis in reality.
Additionally, Zechariah 14:5 contains a temporal discontinuity within itself.
The first part of the verse has already occurred (as mentioned), but the latter part concerning the Messiah coming with all resurrected Christians (which, by the way, is the seventh aspect of the popular fable) obviously occurs at some future time.
Quite simply then, the temporal discontinuities in a futuristic interpretation of Zechariah 14:1-5 render the popular fable an impossibility."
The Popular Fable: Weighing the Evidence | Deciphering Zechariah 14:5 < click
in other words, this prophets covers it all, just like all the prophets, but it's not in chronological sequence:
i.e: this, then that, then this in order, in time.
its natural that the prophets covered all of these events because they are all connected - for israel.
the Messiah would come, He would be received by the remnant, rejected by the apostates, and the Covenant Curses would fall, the old Covenant closed up, the New established.
what is more important than any of that? NOTHING ...nothing at all....until the Final Day.
right?
..............
"In regards to the first aspect, it can be argued that the event described in Zechariah 14:3 occurs at the Messiah’s second advent (cf. Revelation 16:14,16; 19:11-21).
Popular fable adherents believe that this futuristic scenario establishes a definitive context for all of Zechariah 14 that proves all of its events occur in the future as well.
Prima facie, this conclusion seems to be reasonable and unavoidable.
However, when the next two verses (Zechariah 14:4-5) are thoroughly scrutinized within a factual context that clearly shows that all but one of those events occurred in the past (which scrutiny this study accomplishes), that reasoning becomes completely invalid.
A temporal discontinuity also exists between a futuristic interpretation of Zechariah 14:3 and the preceeding two verses (Zechariah 14:1-2), which describe events identical to those that happened during the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. (i.e., city conquered and plundered by a consortium of armies and auxiliaries from throughout the empire; women raped; many enslaved, some freed).
There is no legitimate reason to ignore that very weighty reality that is so accurately described in Zechariah 14:1-2, in order to project the fulfillment of this passage into the future based on an assumed scriptural context, that, as noted here and demonstrated throughout this study, has no basis in reality.
Additionally, Zechariah 14:5 contains a temporal discontinuity within itself.
The first part of the verse has already occurred (as mentioned), but the latter part concerning the Messiah coming with all resurrected Christians (which, by the way, is the seventh aspect of the popular fable) obviously occurs at some future time.
Quite simply then, the temporal discontinuities in a futuristic interpretation of Zechariah 14:1-5 render the popular fable an impossibility."
The Popular Fable: Weighing the Evidence | Deciphering Zechariah 14:5 < click
in other words, this prophets covers it all, just like all the prophets, but it's not in chronological sequence:
i.e: this, then that, then this in order, in time.
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Zech 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.Zech 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zech 14:3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zech 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Ok. So I see nothing precluding vv1-4 from being a future event especially in the light of vv2-3. True there may be some element of a partial local fulfillment of v.5 but double fulfillments (a local and distant) are not unusual.
ps Rome is not all nations.
Zech 14:3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zech 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Ok. So I see nothing precluding vv1-4 from being a future event especially in the light of vv2-3. True there may be some element of a partial local fulfillment of v.5 but double fulfillments (a local and distant) are not unusual.
ps Rome is not all nations.
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That seems to be a reasonable exegetical approach. I don't think the prophets understood all of the details of their visions to be able to put things in the proper sequence. If we to whom the mystery of GOD has been revealed “see through a glass darkly” (1 Corinthians 13:12), how less clear was the prophetic lens in the preceding age when the mystery was not revealed (Ephesians 3:5)?
A
Psalm 2
2 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
[h=3]Acts 4:25-28[/h]
[SUP]25 [/SUP]who by the mouth of Your servant David[SUP][a][/SUP] have said:
‘Why did the nations rage,
And the people plot vain things?
[SUP]26 [/SUP]The kings of the earth took their stand,
And the rulers were gathered together
Against the Lord and against His Christ.’[SUP][b][/SUP]
[SUP]27 [/SUP]“For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together [SUP]28 [/SUP]to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.
Same kind of thing used other times. Plus the Roman empire was a group of nations
and the Old Testament has done this before when talking of a Kingdom
2 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
[h=3]Acts 4:25-28[/h]
[SUP]25 [/SUP]who by the mouth of Your servant David[SUP][a][/SUP] have said:
‘Why did the nations rage,
And the people plot vain things?
[SUP]26 [/SUP]The kings of the earth took their stand,
And the rulers were gathered together
Against the Lord and against His Christ.’[SUP][b][/SUP]
[SUP]27 [/SUP]“For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together [SUP]28 [/SUP]to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.
Same kind of thing used other times. Plus the Roman empire was a group of nations
and the Old Testament has done this before when talking of a Kingdom
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