Deciphering Zechariah 14:5
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......they both work.
This is the image that I wanted to display earlier, but couldn't. This is a snapshot of Google Maps showing Azal south of old Jerusalem and southwest of the Mt of Olives. It's name in Hebrew, נחל אצל (nahal azal; Azal River, or Azal Valley), is visible directly below the 'A' marker. You can view this for yourself on Google Maps by clicking here (Nahal Azal is only visible in Hebrew in Map view with Terrain option enabled.).
What is significant about this location is that it renders the Zechariah 14:5 translation that says people will flee east from Jerusalem through a split Mt of Olives to Azal impossible, because as you can clearly see, Azal lies south of both old Jerusalem and the Mt of Olives.
What is significant about this location is that it renders the Zechariah 14:5 translation that says people will flee east from Jerusalem through a split Mt of Olives to Azal impossible, because as you can clearly see, Azal lies south of both old Jerusalem and the Mt of Olives.
1
This is the image that I wanted to display earlier, but couldn't. This is a snapshot of Google Maps showing Azal south of old Jerusalem and southwest of the Mt of Olives. It's name in Hebrew, נחל אצל (nahal azal; Azal River, or Azal Valley), is visible directly below the 'A' marker. You can view this for yourself on Google Maps by clicking here (Nahal Azal is only visible in Hebrew in Map view with Terrain option enabled.).
What is significant about this location is that it renders the Zechariah 14:5 translation that says people will flee east from Jerusalem through a split Mt of Olives to Azal impossible, because as you can clearly see, Azal lies south of both old Jerusalem and the Mt of Olives.
What is significant about this location is that it renders the Zechariah 14:5 translation that says people will flee east from Jerusalem through a split Mt of Olives to Azal impossible, because as you can clearly see, Azal lies south of both old Jerusalem and the Mt of Olives.
Ok there was a mudslide.
Ok the major translations have it wrong.
Nice.
BUT!
What's all this mean when it's said and done?
Has this verse been fulfilled?
If so when?
If so what?
I see alotta research and all, but what's it all mean in the end?
Give me an executive summary if you will.
The precise implication is that Zechariah 14 cannot be interpreted as being a temporally contiguous prophecy because verses 4-5 have already happened.
How or by what? By a landslide identified by Israeli geologists that is adjacent to the location identified by Israeli archaeologists as being biblical Azal. These facts correlate perfectly with the LXX version of Zechariah 14:5 that says an earthquake will block up a valley all the way to Azal.
When? No telling. Possibly at the death of Christ.
Because the imagined temporal continuity of chapter 14 is destroyed, the contextual constraint that verses 1-2 have to occur in the future, even though they very accurately describe events that happened in 70 AD, is removed.
This leaves us with a very different picture of Zechariah 14 than what we are used to.
How or by what? By a landslide identified by Israeli geologists that is adjacent to the location identified by Israeli archaeologists as being biblical Azal. These facts correlate perfectly with the LXX version of Zechariah 14:5 that says an earthquake will block up a valley all the way to Azal.
When? No telling. Possibly at the death of Christ.
Because the imagined temporal continuity of chapter 14 is destroyed, the contextual constraint that verses 1-2 have to occur in the future, even though they very accurately describe events that happened in 70 AD, is removed.
This leaves us with a very different picture of Zechariah 14 than what we are used to.
Last edited:
Zechariah 14:4
"And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives"
John 8:1
"Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. "
Zechariah 14:8
"And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. "
John 7:38
"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive"
Ephesians 4:4-7
"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ."
...........
Psalm 2
1 Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against the LORD and against his Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us burst their bonds apart
and cast away their cords from us.”
4 He who sits in the heavens laughs;
the Lord holds them in derision.
5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath,
and terrify them in his fury, saying,
6 “As for me, I have set my King
on Zion, my holy hill.”
7 I will tell of the decree:
The LORD said to me, “You are my Son;
today I have begotten you.
8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
and the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You shall breakb them with a rod of iron
and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”
10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise;
be warned, O rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear,
and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son,
lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
for his wrath is quickly kindled.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
FULFILLED:
Acts 4:26
"The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."
......
for consideration:
Daniel 2:34
As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces.
Acts 4:26
"The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."
Zechariah 12:3
On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves.
Isaiah 8:14
He will be a holy place; for both Israel and Judah he will be a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall. And for the people of Jerusalem he will be a trap and a snare.
Matthew 21
42Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
“‘The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
this was the Lord’s doing,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
43Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. 44And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.”
......
Zechariah 12:3
On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves.
Jeremiah 33:16
In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in safety. This is the name by which it will be called: The LORD Our Righteous Savior.'
????
edit...color coding ridiculous.
Still...do you see what i see?
"And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives"
John 8:1
"Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. "
Zechariah 14:8
"And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. "
John 7:38
"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive"
Ephesians 4:4-7
"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ."
...........
Psalm 2
1 Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against the LORD and against his Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us burst their bonds apart
and cast away their cords from us.”
4 He who sits in the heavens laughs;
the Lord holds them in derision.
5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath,
and terrify them in his fury, saying,
6 “As for me, I have set my King
on Zion, my holy hill.”
7 I will tell of the decree:
The LORD said to me, “You are my Son;
today I have begotten you.
8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
and the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You shall breakb them with a rod of iron
and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”
10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise;
be warned, O rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear,
and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son,
lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
for his wrath is quickly kindled.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
FULFILLED:
Acts 4:26
"The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."
......
for consideration:
Daniel 2:34
As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces.
Acts 4:26
"The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."
Zechariah 12:3
On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves.
Isaiah 8:14
He will be a holy place; for both Israel and Judah he will be a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall. And for the people of Jerusalem he will be a trap and a snare.
Matthew 21
42Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
“‘The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
this was the Lord’s doing,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
43Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. 44And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.”
......
Zechariah 12:3
On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves.
Jeremiah 33:16
In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in safety. This is the name by which it will be called: The LORD Our Righteous Savior.'
????
edit...color coding ridiculous.
Still...do you see what i see?
Last edited:
Isaiah 2:2
"And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. "
John 4:20
Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. "
Hebrews 12:22
"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things that that of Abel."
Psalm 2
1 Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against the LORD and against his Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us burst their bonds apart
and cast away their cords from us.”
4 He who sits in the heavens laughs;
the Lord holds them in derision.
5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath,
and terrify them in his fury, saying,
6 “As for me, I have set my King
on Zion, my holy hill.”
7 I will tell of the decree:
The LORD said to me, “You are my Son;
today I have begotten you.
8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
and the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”
10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise;
be warned, O rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear,
and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son,
lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
for his wrath is quickly kindled.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
Acts 4:26
"The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."
Daniel 2:34
As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces.
Luke 19
41And when he drew near and saw the city, he wept over it, 42saying, “Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side 44and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”
Zechariah 12:3
On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves.
Matthew 21
42Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
“‘The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
this was the Lord’s doing,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
43Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. 44And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.”
Daniel 9:26
After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.
??
[the feet of iron and clay are the Herods and Pilate - Jerusalem and Rome - jews and gentiles]:
Acts 4:26
"The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."
Daniel 2:34
As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces.
"And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. "
John 4:20
Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. "
Hebrews 12:22
"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things that that of Abel."
Psalm 2
1 Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against the LORD and against his Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us burst their bonds apart
and cast away their cords from us.”
4 He who sits in the heavens laughs;
the Lord holds them in derision.
5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath,
and terrify them in his fury, saying,
6 “As for me, I have set my King
on Zion, my holy hill.”
7 I will tell of the decree:
The LORD said to me, “You are my Son;
today I have begotten you.
8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
and the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”
10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise;
be warned, O rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear,
and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son,
lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
for his wrath is quickly kindled.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
Acts 4:26
"The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."
Daniel 2:34
As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces.
Luke 19
41And when he drew near and saw the city, he wept over it, 42saying, “Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side 44and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”
Zechariah 12:3
On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves.
Matthew 21
42Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
“‘The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
this was the Lord’s doing,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
43Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. 44And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.”
Daniel 9:26
After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.
??
[the feet of iron and clay are the Herods and Pilate - Jerusalem and Rome - jews and gentiles]:
Acts 4:26
"The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."
Daniel 2:34
As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces.
1
Thanks for tidying that up.
I guess this raises another question.
Is Zech 14 talkin of a literal mudslide, or is that strong expressive imagery meant to portray something else? Namely the stopping of something/someone's from doing something?
On one hand you want to say Zech 14:5 already happened.
On the other hand you say you don't know when it did happen.
Zech 14:5 is tied to the entire chapter.
You can't isolate it.
So if you say Zech 14:5 already happened, that implies the rest also happened.
Yet you can't point to an event that actually fulfilled the rest of the stuff.
This is highly problematic.
You want to say it all happened, but you have no idea who, when, and what?
For most fulfilled prophecy we have more to point to than a mudslide. And we can usually point to a significant event surrounding the physical manifestation.
Ie....the AD70 stones on the temple are scattered and down. That's tied to a greater act of God..namely the ad 70 fulfillment of matthew 24.
but with your findings all we have is a mudslide that's really tied to nothin..and no time....
Kinda defeats the purpose of prophecy to me.
Am I missing something?
I guess this raises another question.
Is Zech 14 talkin of a literal mudslide, or is that strong expressive imagery meant to portray something else? Namely the stopping of something/someone's from doing something?
On one hand you want to say Zech 14:5 already happened.
On the other hand you say you don't know when it did happen.
Zech 14:5 is tied to the entire chapter.
You can't isolate it.
So if you say Zech 14:5 already happened, that implies the rest also happened.
Yet you can't point to an event that actually fulfilled the rest of the stuff.
This is highly problematic.
You want to say it all happened, but you have no idea who, when, and what?
For most fulfilled prophecy we have more to point to than a mudslide. And we can usually point to a significant event surrounding the physical manifestation.
Ie....the AD70 stones on the temple are scattered and down. That's tied to a greater act of God..namely the ad 70 fulfillment of matthew 24.
but with your findings all we have is a mudslide that's really tied to nothin..and no time....
Kinda defeats the purpose of prophecy to me.
Am I missing something?
Zechariah 14:5 mentions that a valley will be blocked up. Scientific evidence proves a landslide blocked up the valley near Azal. You wonder about a figurative fulfillment? What can I say?
A landslide happened in the area mentioned in Zechariah 14:5. What can I say?
Really? Prove to me that Zechariah 14 was written as a chapter.
For you maybe. I don't have a problem with physical evidence.
Am I GOD?
When scientific evidence proves that a landslide occurred in the area specified by a prophecy (that predicts a landslide), I really can't imagine anything more significant.
Am I missing something?
A landslide happened in the area mentioned in Zechariah 14:5. What can I say?
Really? Prove to me that Zechariah 14 was written as a chapter.
For you maybe. I don't have a problem with physical evidence.
Am I GOD?
When scientific evidence proves that a landslide occurred in the area specified by a prophecy (that predicts a landslide), I really can't imagine anything more significant.
Am I missing something?