81% of Christians think Christianity is following rules in the bible
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G
The point was..................that we can live like the devil and still be saved.
Because the majority of Christians believe that it is the flesh that needs to be cleaned up(Something God has already condemned.)........this is living like the devil. Religion.
The majority of believers are convinced that they need to better themselves. Better this world. And God is not interested in cleaning up that which he has already condemned.....our flesh and this world. And these believers are not going to lose their salvation for living like the devil.
The flesh always gets worse. Whether it goes the way of self righteousness and pride or murderous thoughts. It is always getting worse..........and most people operate from the "good" side of the flesh in self righteousness and pride.
The option for the believer is to opt out of operating in the flesh and operate in the Spirit.
Because the majority of Christians believe that it is the flesh that needs to be cleaned up(Something God has already condemned.)........this is living like the devil. Religion.
The majority of believers are convinced that they need to better themselves. Better this world. And God is not interested in cleaning up that which he has already condemned.....our flesh and this world. And these believers are not going to lose their salvation for living like the devil.
The flesh always gets worse. Whether it goes the way of self righteousness and pride or murderous thoughts. It is always getting worse..........and most people operate from the "good" side of the flesh in self righteousness and pride.
The option for the believer is to opt out of operating in the flesh and operate in the Spirit.
Amen.....this is what is called "eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."
The knowledge of good is the same fruit on the tree as the fruit of the knowledge of evil.
This is saying I can be like God without God. That was the temptation in the garden that the serpent gave to Eve. You shall be like God - knowing good and evil.
The serpent did the 5 "I wills" -I will ascent...etc. - when he tried to overthrow God. Self-will is shown here in what Lucifer tried to do.
The enemy appealed to Eve's desire to be like God - not knowing she was made in His image already and only needed to eat from the tree of life which we now know is Christ Himself.
The deception is "you can be like God without God."
The enemy does the same today for us believers - trying for us to "do" things in our own flesh to "be like" God. This is self-righteousness.
Jesus came and said " I can do nothing, it is the Father in Me that does the works"...this is the complete opposite of trying to be like God without God.
This is a perfect picture of the true Christian life - dependent totally on the life of Christ in us to "do good works" - not us trying to generate them from the flesh.
The knowledge of good is the same fruit on the tree as the fruit of the knowledge of evil.
This is saying I can be like God without God. That was the temptation in the garden that the serpent gave to Eve. You shall be like God - knowing good and evil.
The serpent did the 5 "I wills" -I will ascent...etc. - when he tried to overthrow God. Self-will is shown here in what Lucifer tried to do.
The enemy appealed to Eve's desire to be like God - not knowing she was made in His image already and only needed to eat from the tree of life which we now know is Christ Himself.
The deception is "you can be like God without God."
The enemy does the same today for us believers - trying for us to "do" things in our own flesh to "be like" God. This is self-righteousness.
Jesus came and said " I can do nothing, it is the Father in Me that does the works"...this is the complete opposite of trying to be like God without God.
This is a perfect picture of the true Christian life - dependent totally on the life of Christ in us to "do good works" - not us trying to generate them from the flesh.
The body (flesh) does need to be "cleaned up" (your words, not mine) and sanctified. Scripture is clear on that point. There is no salvation apart from what the body does. As I've said before, and I will say again, the idea that the body is not part of the salvation process, or that it is worthless and just keeps getting worse, is just a continuation of the gnostic heresy. Most die, but some will remain until the lord returns; and their bodies will be transformed just as his was. So that renders invalid your point that the body is worthless.
Let's put forth some definition of terms here..The flesh as scripture shows it from what I can see is:
The term "flesh" is used 3 different ways in the NT.
1) the carnal ways of thinking and actions left over from the prior manner of living from the old man - this is where renewing our minds comes in ( Eph. 4:24 and many others like Galatians 5:19 )
2) it is used when talking about self-effort ( Romans 4:1-6 ; Phil. 3:3-9 )
3) and sometimes it just means the "fleshly-meat - the body" itself ( many places in scripture )
The body itself is not evil - just what is in it - namely the flesh and the power of sin. Jesus had a natural body too and it was not evil.
In this "flesh" there is the "power of sin".....these two are in cahoots together. Flesh and the power of sin in working together know what "works" with you in the past.
The power of sin knows your history and what works with you. Whatever areas in the past that you have struggled with is what the "sin in your flesh" will be bringing to you in your mind.
The power of sin says you are guilty and worthless but the Holy Spirit in your new man says you are the righteousness of God in Christ, you are loved..etc. You are in Christ now.
The flesh is ways to think and act that "were" the manner of living we are and were used to left over from the old man. ( Eph 4:22 - in reference to your former manner of living )
The term "flesh" is used 3 different ways in the NT.
1) the carnal ways of thinking and actions left over from the prior manner of living from the old man - this is where renewing our minds comes in ( Eph. 4:24 and many others like Galatians 5:19 )
2) it is used when talking about self-effort ( Romans 4:1-6 ; Phil. 3:3-9 )
3) and sometimes it just means the "fleshly-meat - the body" itself ( many places in scripture )
The body itself is not evil - just what is in it - namely the flesh and the power of sin. Jesus had a natural body too and it was not evil.
In this "flesh" there is the "power of sin".....these two are in cahoots together. Flesh and the power of sin in working together know what "works" with you in the past.
The power of sin knows your history and what works with you. Whatever areas in the past that you have struggled with is what the "sin in your flesh" will be bringing to you in your mind.
The power of sin says you are guilty and worthless but the Holy Spirit in your new man says you are the righteousness of God in Christ, you are loved..etc. You are in Christ now.
The flesh is ways to think and act that "were" the manner of living we are and were used to left over from the old man. ( Eph 4:22 - in reference to your former manner of living )
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The power of sin is in the law, not the flesh. Those under the power of sin (the law) are those who walk by the flesh, whether believer or unbeliever.
Now the sting of death [is] sin, and the power of sin [is] the law. 1 Corinthians 15:56
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:18
D
The title of the thread amuses me. It's kind of like that statistic for using a cellphone while driving.
80% of people who drive while using a cellphone drive poorly while using a cellphone.
80% of people who drive while using a cellphone think they drive just as well as they do when not using a cellphone.
That means some of those people are probably right. Most aren't.
Doesn't that fit into the title of this post perfectly?
80% of people who drive while using a cellphone drive poorly while using a cellphone.
80% of people who drive while using a cellphone think they drive just as well as they do when not using a cellphone.
That means some of those people are probably right. Most aren't.
Doesn't that fit into the title of this post perfectly?
W
So if one is truly saved (follower of Christ) then there should be some sort of change in them. We all agree that we as humans all fall short. But what about the self proclaimed Christians that see no change and they still live in their old ways? Are these false conversions or are they really saved and will still go to heaven? I don't buy into this do what you want and still be saved nonsense. I tend to believe that people that just show up on Sundays and don't give Christ a second thought the rest of the week are false Christians. Even if they said the sinners prayer (which I don't agree with) I still believe there is a false conversion.
The flesh is ways to think and act that "were" the manner of living we are and were used to, left over from the old man. ( Eph 4:22 - in reference to your former manner of living ) The flesh has the law of "sin" in it. ( sin used to identity the noun sin - which is a person place or thing)
There is a difference between sin the noun ( which is in our flesh ) - and sinning the verb which is the action. Knowing this difference is one of the keys to understanding Romans 7 as Paul uses the noun - sin - 48 times in chapters 6-7. Paul only uses the verb "sinning" 2x times.
Understanding terms is important for understanding. Here we see "sin" ( the noun ) in our flesh in Romans 7.
Romans 7:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now, no longer am I ( the new man ) the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me (in my body which has the flesh with the law of sin in it ).
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good dwells in me (my body which has the flesh in it ), that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me ( in my new man ), but the doing of the good is not.
Romans 7:20-23 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I ( new man ) do not want, I ( new man ) am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me ( in the flesh).
[SUP]21 [/SUP] I find then the principle that evil is present in me (new man ), the one who wants to do good.
[SUP]22[/SUP] For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, ( new man),
[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
italics = my words
Then Romans chapter 8 comes in and shows us how to walk according to the Spirit and not the flesh to put to death the deeds of the body ( flesh in the body ). Rom 8:13
Galatians 5:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
We are not fighting a civil war within ourselves ( the flesh and the sin in our body of flesh do not belong to our new nature which in Christ. ). Jesus said " A house divided will not stand."
As long as we are on this earth and in this body we will have to contend with the world, the flesh and the devil. The good news is that our Lord Jesus Christ has defeated all 3 of them!
We are still responsible for the deeds we do in the flesh.
As we grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus....we manifest outwardly in our behavior who we already are in our new man in Christ.
There is a difference between sin the noun ( which is in our flesh ) - and sinning the verb which is the action. Knowing this difference is one of the keys to understanding Romans 7 as Paul uses the noun - sin - 48 times in chapters 6-7. Paul only uses the verb "sinning" 2x times.
Understanding terms is important for understanding. Here we see "sin" ( the noun ) in our flesh in Romans 7.
Romans 7:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now, no longer am I ( the new man ) the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me (in my body which has the flesh with the law of sin in it ).
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good dwells in me (my body which has the flesh in it ), that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me ( in my new man ), but the doing of the good is not.
Romans 7:20-23 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I ( new man ) do not want, I ( new man ) am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me ( in the flesh).
[SUP]21 [/SUP] I find then the principle that evil is present in me (new man ), the one who wants to do good.
[SUP]22[/SUP] For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, ( new man),
[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
italics = my words
Then Romans chapter 8 comes in and shows us how to walk according to the Spirit and not the flesh to put to death the deeds of the body ( flesh in the body ). Rom 8:13
Galatians 5:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
We are not fighting a civil war within ourselves ( the flesh and the sin in our body of flesh do not belong to our new nature which in Christ. ). Jesus said " A house divided will not stand."
As long as we are on this earth and in this body we will have to contend with the world, the flesh and the devil. The good news is that our Lord Jesus Christ has defeated all 3 of them!
We are still responsible for the deeds we do in the flesh.
As we grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus....we manifest outwardly in our behavior who we already are in our new man in Christ.
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That's right, and so one might also say that 81% of people who say there are Christians are not truly "born again" Christians and walking in "the Way" of God's words in righteousness and newness of life in Christ. This is why we see so much "lawless" doctrine, because of the sin all you want and still be saved movement, which is pleasing to ongoing sinners who call themselves saints.
Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
In context Titus 1:16 is talking about those that come in to pervert the grace of God by adding "things they must do" to be saved - called the circumcision. Paul had lots to say about these types of people in Galatians. These are religious people "doing the work of God" in their mindset.
Usually they like to revile people too as you can see by their reliving the Cretans.
Titus 1:10-16 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,
[SUP]11 [/SUP] who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons."
[SUP]13 [/SUP] This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.
( they do have deeds - it's just deeds done in the flesh which are worthless )
The deny Christ's life in them by their deeds of self-righteousness - if you notice the text in context - they think they are doing God's work.
These are not people living away from God and not doing any deeds. These are religious people.
Usually they like to revile people too as you can see by their reliving the Cretans.
Titus 1:10-16 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,
[SUP]11 [/SUP] who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons."
[SUP]13 [/SUP] This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.
( they do have deeds - it's just deeds done in the flesh which are worthless )
The deny Christ's life in them by their deeds of self-righteousness - if you notice the text in context - they think they are doing God's work.
These are not people living away from God and not doing any deeds. These are religious people.
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Not surprising. I've slipped into a deep depression for the past two months. Part of this feeling is just not feeling like I'm able to do whatever It is God wants. Maybe because He hasn't told me what it is He wants. But I've realized turning to Him and asking Him what He wants from me only to not hear a direct answer, that hasn't helped me any. I shouldn't have to feel like complete crap on a daily basis or have to struggle just to make it through the day without having a mental breakdown just to have a relationship with God. That's not a way to live a life.
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That is amazing that 81 percent of Christians think following the rules is necessary,but all those people do not actually live accordingly,but how can you actually say 81 percent,if you had not talked to every single one,unless they are going by denomination,that teaches such things,and their attendance,but that is amazing that 81 percent say follow the rules,but a lot of them do not do accordingly.
There is no rules we can follow perfectly,for there is nothing we can do on our part that can inherit salvation,but led by the Spirit,we will show the characteristics of the Spirit,and will not fulfill the desires of the flesh,and will obey the rules if they are moral laws,and laws of love,and nothing more,therefore it is no more our effort to obtain salvation,and anything on our part,but only led by the Spirit,and His works,not our works,which the only thing on our part is to allow the Spirit to lead us,and allow the Spirit to do the rest.
We allow the Spirit to lead us,and allow the Spirit to do the rest.
There is no rules we can follow perfectly,for there is nothing we can do on our part that can inherit salvation,but led by the Spirit,we will show the characteristics of the Spirit,and will not fulfill the desires of the flesh,and will obey the rules if they are moral laws,and laws of love,and nothing more,therefore it is no more our effort to obtain salvation,and anything on our part,but only led by the Spirit,and His works,not our works,which the only thing on our part is to allow the Spirit to lead us,and allow the Spirit to do the rest.
We allow the Spirit to lead us,and allow the Spirit to do the rest.
This is the kind of thing this "performance driven " Christianity breeds in people. It nullifies the grace of Christ from being active in their lives.
It manifests itself in different ways. I have heard of many that have been where you are now. They came out of it when they received the revelation of the grace of Christ.
Take heart and know that everything will be ok. The Lord is with you and will teach you all about His grace. Fix your hope completely on the grace that is being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 1:13
I pray that this below helps to soothe your soul and give you hope as you direct all to Jesus and what He has already done for you. Rest in the fact that He accepts you and you do not have to perform for Him. He Himself is your life.
Matthew 11:28-30The Message (MSG)[SUP]28-30 [/SUP]“Are you tired? Worn out? Burned out on religion? Come to me. Get away with me and you’ll recover your life. I’ll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me and work with me—watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won’t lay anything heavy or ill-fitting on you. Keep company with me and you’ll learn to live freely and lightly
It manifests itself in different ways. I have heard of many that have been where you are now. They came out of it when they received the revelation of the grace of Christ.
Take heart and know that everything will be ok. The Lord is with you and will teach you all about His grace. Fix your hope completely on the grace that is being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 1:13
I pray that this below helps to soothe your soul and give you hope as you direct all to Jesus and what He has already done for you. Rest in the fact that He accepts you and you do not have to perform for Him. He Himself is your life.
Matthew 11:28-30The Message (MSG)[SUP]28-30 [/SUP]“Are you tired? Worn out? Burned out on religion? Come to me. Get away with me and you’ll recover your life. I’ll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me and work with me—watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won’t lay anything heavy or ill-fitting on you. Keep company with me and you’ll learn to live freely and lightly
Paul was also talking about "rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers" which kind is also present today in many so called Christian denoms, false doctrine by t.v evangelists, and even in their false doctrine being spread on many internet forums by their disciples.
Titus 1:10-16 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers
Titus 1:10-16 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers
I agree... these types of empty talkers and deceivers are everywhere!..altho to say that anyone that preaches on TV is false would be ignorance gone to seed. The Holy Spirit will lead us as we listen to people speak no matter what platform they use. No one person or group has all the truth.
Sometimes this is what is really being said " they don't interpret a scripture like "I" do, so they are false teachers"..it happens all the time...
Sometimes this is what is really being said " they don't interpret a scripture like "I" do, so they are false teachers"..it happens all the time...
I agree... these types of empty talkers and deceivers are everywhere!..altho to say that anyone that preaches on TV is false would be ignorance gone to seed. The Holy Spirit will lead us as we listen to people speak no matter what platform they use. No one person or group has all the truth.
Sometimes this is what is really being said " they don't interpret a scripture like "I" do, so they are false teachers"..it happens all the time...
Sometimes this is what is really being said " they don't interpret a scripture like "I" do, so they are false teachers"..it happens all the time...
Well we know when they speak contrary to the words of God it is a dead give away.
...fix our hope completely the words of Peter on what he says about the grace of God that comes to us when we get a revelation of all that Christ has already done for us by grace through faith in Him alone for salvation!
We have a good, good Father and a great salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ!
1 Peter 1:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
G
We don't see churches and today's believers pushing a lifestyle of lawlessness. they overwhelmingly teach works,law and fruit for salvation or to maintain salvation.
And it is interesting you bring up this verse. Because this verse is talking about the religious crowd who profess Jesus but believe that their OWN "GOOD" DEEDS supply Gods grace to them.
Our good deeds are abominable and disobedient in Gods eyes. The circumcision party(vs 10) was not out teaching Christians to drink, smoke and party on dude. They were pushing rules, regulation's, laws and "cleaning up your life" in order to be right with God.
They pushed for a high moral life. and Titus 1:16 is addressing moral degeneracy not immoral degeneracy.
And it is interesting you bring up this verse. Because this verse is talking about the religious crowd who profess Jesus but believe that their OWN "GOOD" DEEDS supply Gods grace to them.
Our good deeds are abominable and disobedient in Gods eyes. The circumcision party(vs 10) was not out teaching Christians to drink, smoke and party on dude. They were pushing rules, regulation's, laws and "cleaning up your life" in order to be right with God.
They pushed for a high moral life. and Titus 1:16 is addressing moral degeneracy not immoral degeneracy.