A True New Testament Church

[Karraster]

Brother Weakness thank you, I agree both old and new needs the other, and really together makes whole Word of the Creator of all. What I was trying to stress, was that the new was referring to the old, so one must know something about the old to understand what is really being said, for interpretation that is to say. Like trying to read and write not knowing the alphabet.

 

[Elin]

I hadn't considered Ezekiel 20:25. Great passage by the way.

Amen to what you said, "All of God's laws are good." and as I said in my original response, I can see the value of the original law as well, "an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth." and it gives us a picture of how the world works in those types of situations. There's a natural example, or carnal example (the way the world would deal with it) and in what Jesus said regarding this, there is a spiritual example of how we who abide in HIM should deal with those types of situation.

All God's laws are good, but the NT makes clear that they do not all apply in the New Covenant.

 

[Elin]

Those are spawned by the bad laws spoken of in the Word. The good laws will always be good, and if we falter, and I believe we all do, we are not to worry about death for death was defeated on the cross, but it is still sin with the grace of God overlooking the guilt of it...

The good laws teach wisdom, or would we throw out all the writings teaching about them?

God did not give any bad laws.

 

[weakness]

All God's laws are good, but the NT makes clear that they do not all apply in the New Covenant.

What are the statutes that were not good in Ezekiel? In your view. I think they were referring to the statutes of the false gods and nations he scattered them into. ie. the burning of their children to false gods,vs.26

 

[loveme1]

God did not give any bad laws.

It may be what Jack was referring to:

Ezekiel 20

19I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them; 20And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.21Notwithstanding the children rebelled against me: they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; they polluted my sabbaths: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the wilderness. 22Nevertheless I withdrew mine hand, and wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted in the sight of the heathen, in whose sight I brought them forth. 23I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries; 24Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols. 25Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live; 26And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the LORD.

 

[JaumeJ]

There are laws for sinners to execute sinners for their sins. How could anyone living in fresh grace every morning not extend grace and mercy to others?

What did the Master teach us about those who brought the woman caught in adultry. Those who brought her to be stoned were sinners.

If you do not understand this, you do not understand the mercy extended by the Blood of the Lamb, for your reason is still possessed by judging to condemnation.

We are taught to always be merciful and never to judge to condemnation.

Please understand, that is but one of the "bad" laws. The Holy Spirit will teach the difference. If we obey from the mind, heart and soul the Ten Commandments, all will be obeyed for if you truly understand the Ten you will see the two great laws of love are completed in obeying them, and you will have no need to consult the myriad of other laws.

Do not teach against the wishes of the Father, obey them. He has told us what we should do in the Old and the New Testaments.

 

[mustaphadrink]

I am mystified what a discussion about the law has to do with a true new testament church.

 

[Karraster]

I am mystified what a discussion about the law has to do with a true new testament church.

I know! God's Word has no business in a new testament church!!

 

[JaumeJ]

Read the OP.

I am mystified what a discussion about the law has to do with a true new testament church.

 

[Karraster]

Read the OP.

Now brother JaumeJ, you know we don't have time to read the OP. We're too busy runnin around tryin to find somebody to complain about.

 

[just-me]

I am mystified what a discussion about the law has to do with a true new testament church.

I reckon Jesus said it best.

John 5:43-47 (KJV)
[SUP]43 [/SUP]I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

It's the fight against the Mosaic law, and not being able to understand the spiritual aspect of it because of a carnal mind. If the church refuses the Mosaic law, and calls it past, defunct, inert, negated, or just done away with because of Christ, they exemplify a carnal mindset,and their testimony, and ministry have been corrupted.

Romans 8:3-7 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The law wasn't weak in itself. If that were the case, we would be saying that the giver of the law is also weak, but that isn't the case. Flesh is weak and couldn't live up the the Words in the covenant of the law. The covenant/wineskin contains the words of the covenant. The Old wineskin cannot be used for new wine, but the wine is still very good. Drink the old wine because of the new covenant. Then the new testament church has it right.
Leviticus 26:10-12 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And ye shall eat old store, and bring forth the old because of the new.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.

 

[Elin]

What are the statutes that were not good in Ezekiel? In your view. I think they were referring to the statutes of the false gods and nations he scattered them into. ie. the burning of their children to false gods,vs.26

Yeah, and I'm thinkin' 2Chr 12:8; Dt 28:48.

God is not saying they are his own laws, but that he will give them over to the bad laws of others.

 

[Elin]

There are laws for sinners to execute sinners for their sins. How could anyone living in fresh grace every morning not extend grace and mercy to others?

What did the Master teach us about those who brought the woman caught in adultry. Those who brought her to be stoned were sinners.

If you do not understand this, you do not understand the mercy extended by the Blood of the Lamb, for your reason is still possessed by judging to condemnation.

We are taught to always be merciful and never to judge to condemnation.

Please understand, that is but one of the "bad" laws.

You err, my friend.

This is human thinking, not Biblical thinking.

See my previous post.

The Holy Spirit will teach the difference. If we obey from the mind, heart and soul the Ten Commandments, all will be obeyed for if you truly understand the Ten you will see the two great laws of love are completed in obeying them, and you will have no need to consult the myriad of other laws.

Do not teach against the wishes of the Father, obey them. He has told us what we should do in the Old and the New Testaments.

 

[mustaphadrink]

Now brother JaumeJ, you know we don't have time to read the OP. We're too busy runnin around tryin to find somebody to complain about.

Another one that doesn't know that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

 

[p_rehbein]

So many "quotation boxes" and I don't see the original comment for this..............BUT..........

QUOTE:

The Holy Spirit will teach the difference. If we obey from the mind, heart and soul the Ten Commandments, all will be obeyed for if you truly understand the Ten you will see the two great laws of love are completed in obeying them, and you will have no need to consult the myriad of other laws.

END QUOTE..............

Actually, Jesus said JUST the opposite............Jesus said if we keep the Two Greatest, all the Law and the Prophets "hang on them." Meaning............if we keep the Two Greatest He gave us, the 10 would be completed in them.......

 

[p_rehbein]

Matthew 22:36) Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 .) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 .) This is the first and great commandment.
39 .) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 .) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

[just-me]

Matthew 22:36) Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 .) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 .) This is the first and great commandment.
39 .) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 .) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Bless your heart brother. I have one rhetorical question though, and I will answer it if no one else answers. Where are the first definitions of this love found to explain and exact these two love commandments?

 

[2Thewaters]

Anyone who discounts any part of the Bible Is worth ignoring.

 

[JaumeJ]

Of course all of the law is obeyed if we obey the two great laws of love, but if we obey the ten, even the first alone the rest will come into being by our actions because we will have no other god before us worshipping and bowing down to the One Living God, obeying Him, and in so doing we will love both God and our fellow mankind.

Yes all those written laws do hang on love, but the Ten Commandments, if obeyed contain the two "great" laws of love for they are inclusive in obeying them.

Look at the Ten and see, they are the comandments, and they do contain all the law that is good.

 

[just-me]

Matthew 22:36) Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 .) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 .) This is the first and great commandment.
39 .) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 .) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Bless your heart brother. I have one rhetorical question though, and I will answer it if no one else answers. Where are the first definitions of this love found to explain and exact these two love commandments?

Okay, I will answer my own question.

Deuteronomy 6:1-6 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

Leviticus 19:15-18 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

If we exemplify grudges by our rhetoric, and talk about these two commandments that envelope the entire law, we are hypocritical as we talk about the Pharisees who were the epitome of being Judaizers, and legalizers. There is a certain irony practiced in this type of "New Testament Church".

One can't have anything new if there isn't something old to compare with that which is new. How can we call something new if there is no old? If we throw away the old, then the new becomes old, and we are in want of something else that is new to replace what was once new. On and on goes the cycle, never really satisfying the desire, and deep in the heart, this conundrum becomes a vicious cycle that never stops. Does the "New Testament Church" that practices this type of love for others and God, love without the instructions or definitions that the old has brought forth? Love includes more than the 10 Commandments. Read Exodus chapters 20-23, and one can see what is included with these 10 that we esteem so highly. Meditate on this concept please.