Why the "NT-only, grace-only" theology is off the mark

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WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
1,390
38
0
#1
Isaiah 29: 13 Then Adonai said: "Because these people approach me with empty words, and the honor they bestow on me is mere lip-service; while in fact they have distanced their hearts from me, and their 'fear of me' is just a mitzvah of human origin 14 therefore, I will have to keep shocking these people with astounding and amazing things, until the 'wisdom' of their 'wise ones' vanishes, and the 'discernment' of their 'discerning ones' is hidden away."

Mainstream Christian believers insists "Jesus" preached the Gospel - the Good News about the Messiah's death, burial, and resurrection - which is all Christians tend to focus on. But Scripture, read in context, reveals He did NOT preach those things at all; rather, He preached the Kingdom of YHWH (Yahweh)!

Luke 4: 43 "But he (Yeshua/Jesus) said, "I must preach the good news of the Kingdom of God to the other towns also, because that is why I was sent."

Luke 8: 1. And it happened after these things that Y'shua was going around in the cities and in the villages and was preaching and declaring the Kingdom of Elohim.

Acts 28: 23 "From morning till evening the Apostle Paul explained and declared the Kingdom of God and tried to convince people about Yeshua from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets."

Acts 24: 14. But this indeed I (Paul) acknowledge, that in that same doctrine of which they speak, I do serve the Elohim of my fathers, believing all the things written in Torah and in the prophets.

So, while His death, burial, and resurrection are an important part of the Good News, it's not the whole story! God isn't just in the business of "saving" people. As Creator and law giver, He is in the business of teaching us how to be good subjects in His Kingdom to come! If "Jesus abolished Torah at the cross" then why was EVERY believer completely Torah observant for one hundred years afterYeshua's death, including the Apostle Paul who was "caught" being Torah observant 29 years afterYeshua's death (Acts 21:23-24)! Was Paul a hypocrite, saying one thing and doing another; or were his teachings, perhaps, misunderstood?

YHWH said HE would send a prophet who was to do everything He ordered him to do:

Deuteronomy 18: 15 "ADONAI will raise up for you a prophet like me from among yourselves, from your own kinsmen. You are to pay attention to him, 16 just as when you were assembled at Horev and requested ADONAI your God, 'Don't let me hear the voice of ADONAI my God any more, or let me see this great fire ever again; if I do, I will die!' 17 On that occasion ADONAI said to me, 'They are right in what they are saying. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their kinsmen. I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I order him.

Yeshua Himself said He came to do HIS FATHER's will; not His own!

John 6: 35. Y'shua said to them, I am the Bread of Life. Whoever comes to me will not hunger. And whoever believes in me will not ever thirst. 36. But I have said to you that you have seen me, and you do not believe. 37. All who my Father has given to me will come, and whoever comes not to me I will cast outside! 38. For I came down from heaven, not to do my will, but to do the will of Him who sent me. 39. And this is His will, that of Him who sent me, that all that He has given to me I do not lose even one. 40. For this is the will of my Father, that all who see the Son and believe in Him, will have life that is eternal. And I will raise him up on the last day. (Aramaic English New Testament)

Yeshua came to proclaim the Kingdom of YHWH and to do everything His Father commanded. He tore down the fences of man's legalism. Neither He nor His Apostles ever advocated against Torah!

John 12: 44. But Y'shua cried out and said, He who believes in me, it is not in me he does believe, but in Him who sent me. 45. And he who sees me sees Him who sent me! 46. I have come as the light into this world that all who believe in me might not remain in the darkness! 47. And he who hears my words, yet does not keep them, I do not judge him, for I have not come to judge the world but to give life to the world. 48. He who rejects me and does not receive my words, there is something that judges him. The word that I have spoken, it will judge him on the last day. 49. For I have not spoken from my soul, but the Father who sent me. He gave a Commandment to me what I should say and what I should speak. 50. And I know that His commands are eternal life. Therefore, these things that I speak just as my Father told me, thus I speak. (Aramaic English New Testament)

Yeshua was sent by the Father NOT to do His own will, but the Father's! So many seem to think He came to replace the Father and abolish Torah....Yet He came to restore man's relationship with YHWH and remind us to totally rely on YHWH for everything.

Christian claims that, in order to "be saved" one has to do nothing besides "believe in Jesus." While this is true to a certain extent because Yeshua was the Final SIN Sacrifice, there is more to "having a personal relationship with God" - a whole new world, as a matter of fact! Yeshua (YHWH-Come-in-the-Flesh) even said He did not come to replace His Father or to abolish His Father's Divine Instructions (Torah - without which mankind would have no blueprint for moral, holy living (1 John 3:4)!).

And think about this: If you abolish Torah, you have to abolish the Ten Commandments right along with it. You can't pick and choose what parts of Torah are still valid - especially since YHWH gave us several "forever" commands above and beyond "the Ten Commandments"! But yet, Christianity - borne out of Catholicism and NOT the original teachings of Messiah - insists that "Jesus came to do away with the law" and they've decided the "forever" commands don't pertain to them. Somehow, they cannot seem to understand that Yeshua came to proclaim the Kingdom of YHWH and then to martyr Himself so that we could have everlasting life with YHWH (see also John 17:1-3).

1 John 2:3-6: The way we can be sure we know Him is if we are obeying His commands. Anyone who says, "I know Him," but isn't obeying His commands is a liar - the truth is not in him. But if someone keeps doing what he says, then truly love for God has been brought to its goal in him. This is how we are sure that we are united with Him. A person who claims to be continuing in union with Him ought to conduct his life the way He did.

So, how did Yeshua conduct His life? By obeying and carrying out His Father's Divine Instructions/Commands! Yeshua was completely Torah observant, as were all of His apostles and disciples throughout the entire First Century....so what makes Christians think THEY don't have to be? How did Yeshua's death on the stake negate His Father's Divine Instructions? How did YHWH's Divine Instructions get to be a "curse"? That doesn't even make sense!

That, in itself, reveals there must be more to God and the Bible than just "believing in Jesus" and it's way past time for mankind to realize this. We are in the end times as outlined in the Books of Daniel and Revelation, and it won't be much longer before Yeshua's return. Those who have chosen to ignore God's Torah are NOT worshiping the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and will be very surprised to discover they were "left behind" on that fateful day because they were guilty of being "lukewarm." Many of our Christian brethren have already realized this and opted to leave the "milk" of the church in order to pursue a true relationship with their Creator because they've finally understood that Yeshua said He did NOT come to abolish or negate His Father's Commands:

Matthew 5: 17 Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. 18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah - not until everything that must happen has happened. 19 Sowhoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot (words/commands) and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P'rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Has everything happened that must happen? Have heaven and Earth passed away yet? Since when does the word "complete" (or "fulfill) mean "abolished"? Why would God abolish His own original divine teachings which He said were to last forever? Did Jesus come to make a liar out of YHWH, God the Father?

Here's the thing: The "Old Testament" is God's Word; The "New Testament" is about God's Word. One can be "saved" by believing in the Messiah (the "arm of YHWH"), but one cannot possibly understand God until one is firmly rooted in Torah.

Isaiah 53: 1 Who believes our report? To whom is the arm of ADONAI revealed?

Please read the following very carefully: Yeshua (His given Hebrew Name which means, "Yahweh is Salvation" while "Jesus" means nothing in particular), was a Torah observant Jew who kept all the Biblical Feasts and the seventh day Sabbath. Contrary to popular belief, He was not born on December 25th; He was born on the first day of Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles) which always falls in the September/October time frame on our Gregorian calendars. His exact date of death according to the Bible was Nisan 14 - Passover - and He rose three days later on Saturday evening, not on a Sunday. God gave us seven Biblical Feasts which He said believers were to keep forever, and Yeshua has so far only fulfilled the first four....and yet Christians as a whole have chosen to ignore them and instead, celebrate their man-made "holy days" of Christmas and Easter - both of which are steeped in paganism.

When God made His New Covenant with the Houses of Israel and Judah (Jeremiah 31:32), He never mentioned that it was to somehow abolish His Divine Instructions (Torah)...And, contrary to popular belief Yeshua, who was Himself Torah observant, never said He came to abolish the Torah; He came to abolish man-made doctrines, the rabbinical ideology which had distorted (and is still distorting) the Word of God!

When Yeshua returns, He will be teaching GOD'S WORD which was revealed through Torah (the first five Books) and once again personally demonstrating how much off the mark man's opinions are - and thus He will be abolishing Christian traditions and the opinions and ideologies of your respective pastors who are just as off the mark as many of the rabbis of old who had added to and/or taken away from the Word and turned YHWH's commands into a burden....

Many protest that this was "just for the Jews," but we would ask you to please think about this: Where did God ever say He was going to treat His adopted children any different from His natural ones? Torah is our only blueprint for moral, holy and godly living! The ONLY thing Yeshua "nailed to the cross" was the requirement to kill an innocent animal to atone for our sins, and that in no way negates the need for Torah! God Himself said that anyone who wants to follow the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is to be Torah observant:

Numbers 15: 13 "'Everyone who is native-born must do these things in this way when he brings an offering made by fire as an aroma pleasing to the LORD. 14 For the generations to come, whenever an alien or anyone else living among you presents an offering made by fire as an aroma pleasing to the LORD, he must do exactly as you do. 15 The community is to have the same rules for you and for the alien living among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the alien shall be the same before the LORD: 16 The same laws and regulations will apply both to you and to the alien living among you.'"

Please re-read the above in case you missed it: Any Torah-less non-Jew/Hebrew/Israelite who does not yet believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is an "alien"/foreigner. However, if they do wish to accept Him, then they are to do exactly as those who are already belong to Him!

"Living among" means not necessarily physically, but rather, it refers to all those who have accepted the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They MUST be Torah observant, just like the Houses of Israel and Judah were with whom God made His New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:32)!

Romans 10: 12. And in this, it discriminates neither Jews nor Gentiles. For there is one, Master YHWH, over them all, who is abundantly generous towards every one that calls on him. 13. For everyone that will call on the name of Master YHWH, will have life.

It is important to understand that YHWH did NOT make His New Covenant with the Gentiles; He made it with those who were obedient to His divine Instructions (Jeremiah 31:32)! Same God, same rules for both the "natural" and the grafted-in" children....

This does not mean that Torah observance will "save" you, because the ONLY thing that gets you into heaven is belief on the shed blood of Christ! But that in no way negates our need to obey God's rules. If you wish to have a REAL relationship with YHWH, then you MUST obey His "forever" commands, because they are our only blueprint to moral, holy living. But once you have the Holy Spirit, you willwant to please God - and pleasing Him means obeying His Torah which will keep you from sinning! (Remember - sin is the transgression of the Law/Torah - 1 John 3:4)!) Doesn't that make more sense than making up your own rules about a Savior who never once heard the name of "Jesus" during His entire lifetime on Earth?

Jeremiah 31:32 tells us that Yahweh made His "new covenant" not with the Torah-less Gentiles, but with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah; He did, however, extend His grace and mercy to the Gentiles who, once they become believers in Yeshua, automatically become part of "Israel"!

And God told Israel:
"I give you good instruction: Do not forsake my Torah" (Proverbs 4:2).

And Paul reiterated this when he said: Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law. (Romans 3:31) Paul also wrote in Acts 21 - a full 29 years after the death of Yeshua:

Acts 21: 25. As to those of the Gentiles who have believed, we have written, that they should keep themselves from (an idol’s) sacrifice, and from sexual sin, and from what is strangled, and from blood.” 26. Then Paul took those men, on the following day, and was purified with them; and he entered and went into the temple, explaining to them how to complete the days of the purification, up to the presentation of the offering by each of them.

This event clearly establishes Rav Shaul as a Torah observant Jew
; however, most mainstream Christians twist Paul into being a man pleaser – as though his offering was solely to please Jews, as some sort of political posturing. There is no conflict between atonement made by Yeshua’s blood and the giving of offerings in the Temple. Paul walks in the footsteps of Y’shua, King David, and all the Yisrael of Elohim, when he declares "I rejoice in the Torah of Elohim, in the inner man." (Romans 7:22.) Each and every blood sacrifice and offering made in the Temple points to Mashiyach’s perfect blood. The Temple stood until 70 AD. The followers of Y’shua met daily in the Temple and gave offerings unto YHWH, but they also knew atonement was accomplished through the precious blood of Y’shua....

Paul wrote:

Romans 7: 7 Therefore, what are we to say? That the Torah is sinful? Heaven forbid! Rather, the function of the Torah was that without it, I would not have known what sin is. For example, I would not have become conscious of what greed is if the Torah had not said, "Thou shalt not covet."

Romans 7: 12 So the Torah is holy; that is, the commandment is holy, just and good.

Paul also said that YHWH’s law is spiritual (Romans 7:14) - and that which is spiritual is eternal.

2 Corinthians 4: 18 We concentrate not on what is seen but on what is not seen, since things seen are temporary, but things not seen are eternal.

So, the question once more is: Why would Yeshua’s death have abolished Torah? Those who teach contrary to the Torah, which both Yeshua and Paul upheld, are false preachers and prophets; nothing more, nothing less. Paul wrote:

2 Corinthians 11: 13 The fact is that such men are pseudo-emissaries: they tell lies about their work and masquerade as emissaries of the Messiah. 14 There is nothing surprising in that, for the Adversary himself masquerades as an angel of light; 15 so it’s no great thing if his workers masquerade as servants of righteousness. They will meet the end their deeds deserve.

Micah 6: 8 Human being, you have already been told what is good, what ADONAI demands of you - no more than to act justly, love grace and walk in purity with your God.

How do you walk in purity with God unless you are OBEYING Him?

Bottom line: We are on the same side! So, let's work together, for God's sake!


(edited and quotes from http://therefinersfire.org/proclaiming_torah.htm)
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#2
Selective quotes taken to support a position. Same scriptures taken with Eph 2:8-10 finds the biblical position. Anything less creates a contradiction that cannot exist.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
1,390
38
0
#3
Selective quotes taken to support a position. Same scriptures taken with Eph 2:8-10 finds the biblical position. Anything less creates a contradiction that cannot exist.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Ephesians 2:8-10

Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

8 For you have been delivered by grace through trusting, and even this is not your accomplishment but God’s gift. 9 You were not delivered by your own actions; therefore no one should boast. 10 For we are of God’s making, created in union with the Messiah Yeshua for a life of good actions already prepared by God for us to do.

Yes, even the faith to believe in the grace is a gift, so we cannot boast that we did anything that causes the free gift.

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father — the One who sent me — draws him. And I will raise him up on the Last Day.
 
T

Tintin

Guest
#4
God gives us the faith to have faith in Him. Grace through faith is obedience unto Christ.
 
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
182
0
#5
Selective quotes taken to support a position. Same scriptures taken with Eph 2:8-10 finds the biblical position. Anything less creates a contradiction that cannot exist.
If people who love the Lord would take the word "only" out of their vocabulary, most of the controversy about what God says would be gone. Scripture gives us many truths, but when we learn a truth, if we would know there are other truths that also apply, we would know more of God. only grace, only faith, only the new covenant, only love and law doesn't express it, I could go on and on.
 
Jan 13, 2014
960
16
0
#6
kjv word choices has confused those who dont know the word meanings
.
Eph 2:8 For by grace (holy divine influence)
are ye saved (from sinning)
through faith; (Believing enough to obey Gods commandments and book)
and that not of yourselves: (own strength)
it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works,
lest any man should boast.


So why did you leave of the next verse?
It exposes false doctrines of Babylon...

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
in Christ Jesus unto good works
in Christ Jesus unto good works
in Christ Jesus unto good works
which God hath before ordained
that we should walk in them.
that we should walk in them.
that we should walk in them.
that we should walk in them.
that we should walk in them.

Obey, Obey, Obey, Obey, Obey, Obey, Obey, ..........




Selective scripture selection

those who dont want to obey always select out the part that God expects us to repent, change, and start living the right way
keeping gods guidelines, his commandments

Please don't select out eternal life in obedience to the word of God.
 
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C

cfultz3

Guest
#7
If people who love the Lord would take the word "only" out of their vocabulary, most of the controversy about what God says would be gone. Scripture gives us many truths, but when we learn a truth, if we would know there are other truths that also apply, we would know more of God. only grace, only faith, only the new covenant, only love and law doesn't express it, I could go on and on.
Should we then take away the following and say instead:

only grace = a person can obtain righteousness through grace and/or law?
only faith = a person can receive salvation through works and/or faith?
only the new covenant = we can be under either covenant?
only love, law does not express it = we can be either physically or spiritually lead (we can be led by either Moses or Jesus)?

But, I do say, Redtent, if salvation is not obtained only through Christ, but can also be obtained through Moses' house, then would not Jesus' death been pointless, seeing that Moses did not enter into the Promised Land? It would seem to me then that since Moses did not enter, we should follow the One who has.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#8
.............

those who dont want to obey always select out the part that God expects us to repent, change, and start living the right way
keeping gods guidelines, his commandments

Please don't select out eternal life in obedience to the word of God.
I do not think the disagreement is over obedience, I have only meet one person here who said that we can live lawlessly. The disagreement has to do with placing one's self under Moses or Jesus for a shepherd to lead us Home. It is also about mixing the two houses together, although it says each has their own house. It is about Christ not being enough, that the Law is to be added to Grace.
 

WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
1,390
38
0
#9
I do not think the disagreement is over obedience, I have only meet one person here who said that we can live lawlessly. The disagreement has to do with placing one's self under Moses or Jesus for a shepherd to lead us Home. It is also about mixing the two houses together, although it says each has their own house. It is about Christ not being enough, that the Law is to be added to Grace.
In the OT, we see GRACE before LAW. In the NT, we see GRACE before LAW. GRACE IS THE ROOT OF OUR SALVATION TO COME, AND LAW IS THE FRUIT OF OUR SALVATION WE ARE WORKING OUT NOW.

So, while His death, burial, and resurrection are an important part of the Good News, it's not the whole story! God isn't just in the business of "saving" people. As Creator and law giver, He is in the business of teaching us how to be good subjects in His Kingdom to come! If "Jesus abolished Torah at the cross" then why was EVERY believer completely Torah observant for one hundred years afterYeshua's death, including the Apostle Paul who was "caught" being Torah observant 29 years afterYeshua's death (Acts 21:23-24)! Was Paul a hypocrite, saying one thing and doing another; or were his teachings, perhaps, misunderstood?

YHWH said HE would send a prophet who was to do everything He ordered him to do:

Deuteronomy 18: 15 "ADONAI will raise up for you a prophet like me from among yourselves, from your own kinsmen. You are to pay attention to him, 16 just as when you were assembled at Horev and requested ADONAI your God, 'Don't let me hear the voice of ADONAI my God any more, or let me see this great fire ever again; if I do, I will die!' 17 On that occasion ADONAI said to me, 'They are right in what they are saying. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their kinsmen. I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I order him.

Yeshua Himself said He came to do HIS FATHER's will; not His own!

John 6: 35. Y'shua said to them, I am the Bread of Life. Whoever comes to me will not hunger. And whoever believes in me will not ever thirst. 36. But I have said to you that you have seen me, and you do not believe. 37. All who my Father has given to me will come, and whoever comes not to me I will cast outside! 38. For I came down from heaven, not to do my will, but to do the will of Him who sent me. 39. And this is His will, that of Him who sent me, that all that He has given to me I do not lose even one. 40. For this is the will of my Father, that all who see the Son and believe in Him, will have life that is eternal. And I will raise him up on the last day. (Aramaic English New Testament)

Yeshua came to proclaim the Kingdom of YHWH and to do everything His Father commanded. He tore down the fences of man's legalism. Neither He nor His Apostles ever advocated against Torah!
 
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
182
0
#10
Should we then take away the following and say instead:

only grace = a person can obtain righteousness through grace and/or law?
only faith = a person can receive salvation through works and/or faith?
only the new covenant = we can be under either covenant?
only love, law does not express it = we can be either physically or spiritually lead (we can be led by either Moses or Jesus)?

But, I do say, Redtent, if salvation is not obtained only through Christ, but can also be obtained through Moses' house, then would not Jesus' death been pointless, seeing that Moses did not enter into the Promised Land? It would seem to me then that since Moses did not enter, we should follow the One who has.
What a terrible distortion. Gives me chills. It is saying that scripture is not to be followed.

What do you mean by another covenant we can't be under? Please define this "either" covenant. Some people actually say that God made a covenant once with us that says that we receive grace through works, when there is no covenant that says that. God never gave humans the right to become their own God.

It is true, I don't believe scripture ever tells us that because we are to be spiritually led we are not to learn how God thought we should act in order to express the law of love. I don't think it is "only" spirit and certainly not "only" law.

I have heard people say that it is "only" grace, so because of that don't listen to law. I think that is not of God, just as it is not of God to say we can be our own salvation.

I have heard people say it is "only" faith, and use that to promote not listening to any law they don't decide on for themselves telling people they are so pure and perfect they can close everything from their minds but God.

And yes, I don't think Christ told us to ignore Moses because law is always based on love. What law is there that isn't given to us because of love?
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#11
....GRACE IS THE ROOT OF OUR SALVATION TO COME, AND LAW IS THE FRUIT OF OUR SALVATION WE ARE WORKING OUT NOW.
Would it not be that it was grace which brought in "faith in Christ" as our root of salvation to come, grace being the catalyst, inasmuch as deeds of the flesh was for those under Moses?

Would it not be that the fruit of our salvation is those things done in conjunction with the Spirit, inasmuch as the fruit of Law is the deeds done in the flesh?

So, while His death, burial, and resurrection are an important part of the Good News, it's not the whole story! God isn't just in the business of "saving" people. As Creator and law giver, He is in the business of teaching us how to be good subjects in His Kingdom to come! If "Jesus abolished Torah at the cross" then why was EVERY believer completely Torah observant for one hundred years afterYeshua's death, including the Apostle Paul who was "caught" being Torah observant 29 years afterYeshua's death (Acts 21:23-24)! Was Paul a hypocrite, saying one thing and doing another; or were his teachings, perhaps, misunderstood?

If I am understanding you correctly, are you saying that after 100 years from Jesus' death, EVERY believer in Him was completely Torah observant? As in, they kept themselves under the Covenant of Law and had Moses still leading them to the Promised Land?

From what I gather from the verses below, it seems he became what he had to in order to save souls:

1Co 9:20-22 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.​

YHWH said HE would send a prophet who was to do everything He ordered him to do:

Deuteronomy 18: 15 "ADONAI will raise up for you a prophet like me from among yourselves, from your own kinsmen. You are to pay attention to him, 16 just as when you were assembled at Horev and requested ADONAI your God, 'Don't let me hear the voice of ADONAI my God any more, or let me see this great fire ever again; if I do, I will die!' 17 On that occasion ADONAI said to me, 'They are right in what they are saying. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their kinsmen. I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I order him.

Yeshua Himself said He came to do HIS FATHER's will; not His own!

John 6: 35. Y'shua said to them, I am the Bread of Life. Whoever comes to me will not hunger. And whoever believes in me will not ever thirst. 36. But I have said to you that you have seen me, and you do not believe. 37. All who my Father has given to me will come, and whoever comes not to me I will cast outside! 38. For I came down from heaven, not to do my will, but to do the will of Him who sent me. 39. And this is His will, that of Him who sent me, that all that He has given to me I do not lose even one. 40. For this is the will of my Father, that all who see the Son and believe in Him, will have life that is eternal. And I will raise him up on the last day. (Aramaic English New Testament)

Yeshua came to proclaim the Kingdom of YHWH and to do everything His Father commanded. He tore down the fences of man's legalism. Neither He nor His Apostles ever advocated against Torah!


Trust me, the Law is good. As we both agree, Jesus did the will of the Father. He fulfilled the Law and gave us another Covenant, was this not the message He was sent with?

We either have Moses or Jesus leading us, we are either lead by our flesh or by our spirit. Either way, we are to be obedient to the one leading us. Obedience is not in question here. But this is, are we to be led by Moses who did not enter into the Promised Land by the path He walked on or are we to be led by Jesus who not only entered into the Promised Land by the path He walks on, but assures those who follow Him of the same ending?

I am sure we both agree that we fulfill God's Law through Jesus' house. I am sure we both agree that Christ, the Lawgiver, does teach God's moral Law.

There can only be one who leads, as there can only be one method to be led by.
 
D

danschance

Guest
#12
4When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them. 5But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.” Acts 15
Here the Judaizers wanted the gentiles to observe the Mosaic law. How do you think the Apostles responded?

Here is how they responded:
10“Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.” Acts 15
Wow... Not even the slightest mention of obeying the sabbath, eating kosher, etc. They said nothing about keeping laws either. They actually had disparaging remarks about the mosaic laws by saying: " a yoke the Jews could not bear". Even worse, even more damaging is that Peter said: ..why do you put God to the test.. The Judaizers of today think it is wonderful to select a few of the Mosaic laws the like and try to live by them but it is heresy, it is putting God to the test. Yea....good luck with that.
 
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danschance

Guest
#13
And by the way...

There are no christians who are "NT-only". That is a straw man you are creating to disparage true believers.
 

WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
1,390
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#14
Would it not be that it was grace which brought in "faith in Christ" as our root of salvation to come, grace being the catalyst, inasmuch as deeds of the flesh was for those under Moses?

Would it not be that the fruit of our salvation is those things done in conjunction with the Spirit, inasmuch as the fruit of Law is the deeds done in the flesh?


If I am understanding you correctly, are you saying that after 100 years from Jesus' death, EVERY believer in Him was completely Torah observant? As in, they kept themselves under the Covenant of Law and had Moses still leading them to the Promised Land?

From what I gather from the verses below, it seems he became what he had to in order to save souls:
1Co 9:20-22 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.​



Trust me, the Law is good. As we both agree, Jesus did the will of the Father. He fulfilled the Law and gave us another Covenant, was this not the message He was sent with?

We either have Moses or Jesus leading us, we are either lead by our flesh or by our spirit. Either way, we are to be obedient to the one leading us. Obedience is not in question here. But this is, are we to be led by Moses who did not enter into the Promised Land by the path He walked on or are we to be led by Jesus who not only entered into the Promised Land by the path He walks on, but assures those who follow Him of the same ending?

I am sure we both agree that we fulfill God's Law through Jesus' house. I am sure we both agree that Christ, the Lawgiver, does teach God's moral Law.

There can only be one who leads, as there can only be one method to be led by.


"Only" one can be our shepherd? Yahweh or Yeshua. They are one, so we are led by both through the Holy Spirit.
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#15
What do you mean by another covenant we can't be under? Please define this "either" covenant. Some people actually say that God made a covenant once with us that says that we receive grace through works, when there is no covenant that says that. God never gave humans the right to become their own God.
We are either led by the Law through our flesh or we are led by the Spirit through our spirit. The Covenant of Law leads by physical obedience. The Covenant of Grace leads by spiritual obedience. We either live physically or spiritually. We are told to die to our flesh so that we can become alive to our spirits. So, we are either under the Covenant from Moses' house or the one from Jesus' house. We cannot be lead by the flesh and by the spirit at the same time. We have to pick a house, preferably, the one which minds the things of the Spirit.

It is true, I don't believe scripture ever tells us that because we are to be spiritually led we are not to learn how God thought we should act in order to express the law of love. I don't think it is "only" spirit and certainly not "only" law.
But, then again, it is the same Lawgiver who leads. I am sure we both know that He does not lead contrary to what He spoke. It is impossible to be led by the Spirit and by the flesh at the same time. We are either only led by the Spirit or by only the Law. Our obedience is not to the Law, but to the very present Lawgiver Himself.

I have heard people say that it is "only" grace, so because of that don't listen to law. I think that is not of God, just as it is not of God to say we can be our own salvation.
It is not from God, I agree. Most are speaking about what it is which is to lead us: flesh or spirit. I am sure if you ask people, they will say that we are to obey God, just as you and I say. But, if you ask them if we are to obey the Law, then the first thing which comes to their mind, as least it does mine, is: I am to be led by my flesh, which is contrary to Scripture saying that we are to die to our flesh and became alive to our spirit as the mechanism used to be obedient to our Lord.
I have heard people say it is "only" faith, and use that to promote not listening to any law they don't decide on for themselves telling people they are so pure and perfect they can close everything from their minds but God.
We both know this is bologna. A dead faith is no faith at all. That is like saying that you can work for someone and do not have to listen to their commands at all. See how long that lasts :)

And yes, I don't think Christ told us to ignore Moses because law is always based on love.
But, I think Jesus did say, "Come and follow Me". If we have both Moses and Jesus as our shepherd, then somehow we get stuck in the middle of not having died to our flesh and not quite yet alive to our spirit, seeing that they both led by different methods (flesh and spirit).

What law is there that isn't given to us because of love?
Jesus says to walk by love. Moses says to walk for our righteousness. So, since we have our righteousness through faith in Christ, then let us walk how Jesus told us. The same Lawgiver who gave the moral laws of God, is the same Lawgiver we follow on the path of faith.
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#16
"Only" one can be our shepherd? Yahweh or Yeshua. They are one, so we are led by both through the Holy Spirit.
Only one can lead us to the Promised Land, either MOSES or Jesus. If you would, please read where I said, "We either have Moses or Jesus leading us".

If the Word became flesh and is said of Him that He is our Creator, then if we are led by Him as the Son, then are we not being led by our God? We either have the very God leading us by our spirit or we have Moses leading us through the Law. We cannot be led by two methods.
 
L

Least

Guest
#17
Only one can lead us to the Promised Land, either MOSES or Jesus. If you would, please read where I said, "We either have Moses or Jesus leading us".

If the Word became flesh and is said of Him that He is our Creator, then if we are led by Him as the Son, then are we not being led by our God? We either have the very God leading us by our spirit or we have Moses leading us through the Law. We cannot be led by two methods.
John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
John 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#18
We are either led by the Law through our flesh or we are led by the Spirit through our spirit. The Covenant of Law leads by physical obedience. The Covenant of Grace leads by spiritual obedience. We either live physically or spiritually. We are told to die to our flesh so that we can become alive to our spirits. So, we are either under the Covenant from Moses' house or the one from Jesus' house. We cannot be lead by the flesh and by the spirit at the same time. We have to pick a house, preferably, the one which minds the things of the Spirit.


But, then again, it is the same Lawgiver who leads. I am sure we both know that He does not lead contrary to what He spoke. It is impossible to be led by the Spirit and by the flesh at the same time. We are either only led by the Spirit or by only the Law. Our obedience is not to the Law, but to the very present Lawgiver Himself.


It is not from God, I agree. Most are speaking about what it is which is to lead us: flesh or spirit. I am sure if you ask people, they will say that we are to obey God, just as you and I say. But, if you ask them if we are to obey the Law, then the first thing which comes to their mind, as least it does mine, is: I am to be led by my flesh, which is contrary to Scripture saying that we are to die to our flesh and became alive to our spirit as the mechanism used to be obedient to our Lord.

We both know this is bologna. A dead faith is no faith at all. That is like saying that you can work for someone and do not have to listen to their commands at all. See how long that lasts :)



But, I think Jesus did say, "Come and follow Me". If we have both Moses and Jesus as our shepherd, then somehow we get stuck in the middle of not having died to our flesh and not quite yet alive to our spirit, seeing that they both led by different methods (flesh and spirit).


Jesus says to walk by love. Moses says to walk for our righteousness. So, since we have our righteousness through faith in Christ, then let us walk how Jesus told us. The same Lawgiver who gave the moral laws of God, is the same Lawgiver we follow on the path of faith.
This is an example of the "only" I don't think God wants us to follow. We are not only led by the spirit, we are not only led by the law. The spirit leads us to the law. Without any checks on what we think the spirit is telling us, it is the same as being absolutely lawless and wild. We check with the law we find in scripture. That tells us if what we do, think, and believe is of the flesh of or the spirit. When we say we are too wonderfully spiritual to check we are fooling ourselves.

We don't use the law for our salvation, we use it to follow Jesus. God never leads us away from the law.
 
Dec 9, 2013
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#19