In context: Romans 4:4-5

[mailmandan]

Rom 4:4 "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."

What type of work here in Rom 4:4 is it that one can do to make his reward not of grace but of debt?

What is the alternative to "does not work" in Romans 4:5? Does other types of work? NO. But believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

What type of works did Paul mention along with "believes on Him/faith is accounted for righteousness?" Your argument here that is also used by Roman Catholics and Mormons in a desperate attempt to get around the truth and support salvation by works has been refuted numerous times.

 

[SeaBass]

In this case, it's hard to tell the different if one believe./ obey but not being good, I obey God but every day I am a rapist

It that possible?

No.

I believe we can't produce love of itself but only if we abide to Jesus like branch abide to the tree. Then produce love. And love will produce good deed.

But we are in the process, not perfect yet. I think brother seabas is talking about catholic doctrine. Only if one become catholic or non catholic that never heard about catholic consider obey, then what ever they does as long as not left catholic faith, will be save, though must go to purgatory.

The purpose of me starting this thread is to demonstrate how those that follow the man-made faith only doctrine twist the Rom 4:4,5 passage.

I just posted a question: in Rom 4:4 what kind of work is Paul talking about in this verse, what kind of work would make one's reward of debt and not of grace?

 

[SeaBass]

What is the alternative to "does not work" in Romans 4:5? Does other types of work? NO. But believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

What type of works did Paul mention along with "believes on Him/faith is accounted for righteousness?" Your argument here that is also used by Roman Catholics and Mormons in a desperate attempt to get around the truth and support salvation by works has been refuted numerous times.

The "worketh" of verse 4 refers to the "worketh not" of verse 5. So if we know the kind of work Paul is talking about in verse 4 then we will know what type of work Paul is talking about in verse 5 when he said "worketh not".

So what kind of work is Paul talking about in verse 4 that would make one's reward of debt and not of grace?

 

[mailmandan]

1) the thief is not an example of NT salvation. Heb 9:16,17. So Mk 16:16 or Acts 2:38 came into effect AFTER the thief died so he was not accountable to those verses as we today are who live AFTER these verses.

Do you believe that "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" means that baptism remits sins? (Luke 3:3). If so then you just contradicted yourself above because this was spoken by John before the cross.

2) the bible does not say "the thief was never baptized" nor does the bible say "the thief was baptized" so no one can prove if he was or was not baptized.

I see you are still trying to cover all the bases, just in case.

For the sake of others who have ears to hear, I'll repeat what I've said before. So you believe that that thief may have been converted, was water baptized, and the fruit of that is being crucified as a thief? In Matthew 27:39-43, we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests scribes and elders blashemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and EVEN THE ROBBERS WHO WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM REVILED HIM WITH THE SAME THING. More fruit? Being crucified as a thief, blasheming, mocking and shaking your head at Jesus is not the fruit of repentance/faith. Yet, moments later, we see that the thief had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved (Luke 23:40-43). Of course, he died before having the opportunity to be water baptized. Not hard to understand, just hard for you to accept.

 

[mailmandan]

The "worketh" of verse 4 refers to the "worketh not" of verse 5. So if we know the kind of work Paul is talking about in verse 4 then we will know what type of work Paul is talking about in verse 5 when he said "worketh not".

So what kind of work is Paul talking about in verse 4 that would make one's reward of debt and not of grace?

Any works that we "add" to salvation through faith in Christ. Paul did not say that his faith and works is accounted for righteousness. Paul simply said "believes on Him/his faith (not his works) is accounted for righteousness" yet you are determined to "add" works to the equation.

 

[SeaBass]

Do you believe that "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" means that baptism remits sins? (Luke 3:3). If so then you just contradicted yourself above because this was spoken by John before the cross.

Mark 1:4 "John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins."

Heb 9:22 "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

John said his baptism is for remission of sins BEFORE Christ shed His blood yet Heb 9:22 says without the shedding of blood there is no remission. Since the bible does not contradict itself it would mean John's baptism remitted sins in promise. When Christ died, His blood flowed backwards and forwards. It flowed back wards and remitted the sins in promise of all those obedient OT saints. It would also flow backwards and remit the sins in promise of those baptized with John's baptism. It flows forward to remit the sins of all those that are obedient to Christ's gospel today.

I see you are still trying to cover all the bases, just in case.

For the sake of others who have ears to hear, I'll repeat what I've said before. So you believe that that thief may have been converted, was water baptized, and the fruit of that is being crucified as a thief? In Matthew 27:39-43, we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests scribes and elders blashemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and EVEN THE ROBBERS WHO WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM REVILED HIM WITH THE SAME THING. More fruit? Being crucified as a thief, blasheming, mocking and shaking your head at Jesus is not the fruit of repentance/faith. Yet, moments later, we see that the thief had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved (Luke 23:40-43). Of course, he died before having the opportunity to be water baptized. Not hard to understand, just hard for you to accept.

It does not matter to me if the thief was baptized or not for he is not an example of NT salvation. Again, Heb 9:16,17 show that Chris't NT gospel ( that inlcudes Mk 16:16, Acts 2:38 etc) came into effect AFTER the thief died so he was not accountable to obeying the NT gospel as we today are who live after that gospel has come into effect.

Just because the thief at first mocked Jesus [but later repented] is not proof he was never baptized.

Lk 23:40ff "But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom."

From what Luke tells us about the thief:
1) how would the thief know Christ was innocent of that He was accused of?
2) the thief knew there was God and God was to be feared.
3) how did the thief know Jesus had a kingdom
4) how did the thief know it was important he be in that kingdom?

The thief had as much if no more knowledge about Christ than some of Christ's own disciples. Is it possible that this thief knew so much about Christ because he was once a disciple himself who fell into a life of crime now finding himself being crucified with his former Master and in repentance/ YES!


Matt 9:6 "But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins,...."

When Christ was ON EARTH He had been given the power to forgive the sins of those whom He thought was deserving.
Is Christ ON EARTH now personally forgiving the sins of those whom He thinks are deserving? No, so no one can make the claim they are saved in the same way as the thief. Christ LEFT EARTH some 2000 years ago leaving behind His NT gospel as His authority on earth and that NT gospel says one must believe,repent confess and be baptized to be saved.

 

[SeaBass]

Any works that we "add" to salvation through faith in Christ. Paul did not say that his faith and works is accounted for righteousness. Paul simply said "believes on Him/his faith (not his works) is accounted for righteousness" yet you are determined to "add" works to the equation.

So if "worketh" in Rom 4:4 refers to "any works" then "any works" would include obedient works and good works.

Heb 11:7 "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

Was Noah trying to earn the saving of his house by his obdience in building the ark as God told him? Was it God's intent that Noah merit the saving of his house by telling Noah to build the ark? Are all the command given by God in the bible mean God intends man to merit his salvation by obeying those commands?


Eph 2:10 are Christians to earn something by doing good works God has before ordained Christians to walk in?

 

[Jackson123]

No.




The purpose of me starting this thread is to demonstrate how those that follow the man-made faith only doctrine twist the Rom 4:4,5 passage.

I just posted a question: in Rom 4:4 what kind of work is Paul talking about in this verse, what kind of work would make one's reward of debt and not of grace?

1. The question: is possible one believe in God and a rapist ? your answered is no.

It mean you believe there is correlation between believe in God and good deeds.

Salvation is product of Believe and believe produce good deeds.>>>>>> good deeds is product of salvation

2. what do you mean by follow man made faith only doctrine?

would you give me specific example?

 

[mailmandan]

Mark 1:4 "John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins."

Heb 9:22 "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

John said his baptism is for remission of sins BEFORE Christ shed His blood yet Heb 9:22 says without the shedding of blood there is no remission. Since the bible does not contradict itself it would mean John's baptism remitted sins in promise. When Christ died, His blood flowed backwards and forwards. It flowed back wards and remitted the sins in promise of all those obedient OT saints. It would also flow backwards and remit the sins in promise of those baptized with John's baptism. It flows forward to remit the sins of all those that are obedient to Christ's gospel today.

John's baptism was "in regards to/in reference to" the forgiveness of sins received upon repentance/faith. In Matthew 3:11, we read - "I baptize you with water "for" repentance." Did John baptize with water for "in order to obtain" repentance or for "in regards to/in reference to" repentance? Getting baptized with water in order to obtain repentance makes no sense at all. We first repent and then afterwards we get baptized in water. The gospel of Christ is not dipped or condemned. Jesus said believe or condemned (John 3:18).

It does not matter to me if the thief was baptized or not for he is not an example of NT salvation. Again, Heb 9:16,17 show that Chris't NT gospel ( that inlcudes Mk 16:16, Acts 2:38 etc) came into effect AFTER the thief died so he was not accountable to obeying the NT gospel as we today are who live after that gospel has come into effect.

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). No water, no works. You are obsessed with baptism. Now harmonize Mark 16:16 with John 3:18 and Acts 2:38 with Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18.

Just because the thief at first mocked Jesus [but later repented] is not proof he was never baptized.

Not only mocked, but BLASPHEMED and shook his head at Jesus. That's proof enough for me of a lack of conversion. That is certainly not the fruit of repentance/faith.

Lk 23:40ff "But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom."

From what Luke tells us about the thief:
1) how would the thief know Christ was innocent of that He was accused of?
2) the thief knew there was God and God was to be feared.
3) how did the thief know Jesus had a kingdom
4) how did the thief know it was important he be in that kingdom?

He, like anyone else could have heard the teachings of Jesus, yet was not ready to receive Him, until just before his death on the cross. Jesus was also right next to him.

The thief had as much if no more knowledge about Christ than some of Christ's own disciples. Is it possible that this thief knew so much about Christ because he was once a disciple himself who fell into a life of crime now finding himself being crucified with his former Master and in repentance/ YES!

Pure speculation. Disciples of Christ do not mock, blaspheme and shake their heads at Jesus.

Matt 9:6 "

But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins,...."

When Christ was ON EARTH He had been given the power to forgive the sins of those whom He thought was deserving.
Is Christ ON EARTH now personally forgiving the sins of those whom He thinks are deserving? No, so no one can make the claim they are saved in the same way as the thief. Christ LEFT EARTH some 2000 years ago leaving behind His NT gospel as His authority on earth and that NT gospel says one must believe,repent confess and be baptized to be saved.

I see that you still refuse to repent and believe the gospel and continue to "parrot off" what your predecessors in the church of Christ before you have taught. Please read and meditate on 2 Corinthians 4:3,4.

 

[mailmandan]

So if "worketh" in Rom 4:4 refers to "any works" then "any works" would include obedient works and good works.

Are good works not a part of the moral aspect of the law? Matthew 22:37-40 - Love God and your neighbor as yourself? Did Paul say believes on Him/his faith and good works is accounted for righteousness or believes on Him/his faith is accounted for righteousness? You like works righteousness better because then YOU get the credit.

Heb 11:7 "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

Was Noah trying to earn the saving of his house by his obdience in building the ark as God told him? Was it God's intent that Noah merit the saving of his house by telling Noah to build the ark? Are all the command given by God in the bible mean God intends man to merit his salvation by obeying those commands?

Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith, not the origin of it. Was it the water that literally saved Noah and his family or the ARK? Read about what literally saved them in Hebrews 11:7.

Eph 2:10 are Christians to earn something by doing good works God has before ordained Christians to walk in?

No, and believers are already Christians before they walk in these good works, saved through faith, not works, then created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works. Believers are saved FOR good works, NOT by good works. Do you believe that these good works actually help Jesus save us?

 

[psychomom]

if good works could save us...then Jesus is irrelevant.

 

[newbirth]

Are good works not a part of the moral aspect of the law? Matthew 22:37-40 - Love God and your neighbor as yourself? Did Paul say believes on Him/his faith and good works is accounted for righteousness or believes on Him/his faith is accounted for righteousness? You like works righteousness better because then YOU get the credit.

Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith, not the origin of it. Was it the water that literally saved Noah and his family or the ARK? Read about what literally saved them in Hebrews 11:7.

No, and believers are already Christians before they walk in these good works, saved through faith, not works, then created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works. Believers are saved FOR good works, NOT by good works. Do you believe that these good works actually help Jesus save us?

hearing the word is the origin of our faith....obeying the word is faith with works
Romans 16:26
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:



Abraham obeyed the first call
Genesis 12:1-3King James Version (KJV)
12 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

 

[mailmandan]

hearing the word is the origin of our faith....obeying the word is faith with works

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17). Believing is the origin of our faith and obeying the word afterwards is works. Faith is believing and obedience which follows is works. You don't seem to make a distinction between the root of salvation (faith) and the fruit of salvation (works). You seem to think that faith "is" multiple acts of obedience, faith "is" works. This leads to your errant theology that salvation is through faith/works. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1).

Romans 16:26
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of coming to faith in Christ and receiving salvation as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" by believing the gospel (Romans 10:16; 1:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God. Paul also mentions "obedience of faith" in Romans 1:5. Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT by good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). In Romans 1:5, Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience afterwards. We have access by FAITH into GRACE..Romans 5:2 not faith "and obedience/works." We are saved through faith in Christ first, then "unto" obedience/works.

Abraham obeyed the first call
Genesis 12:1-3King James Version (KJV)
12 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Which eventually led him to the place in which God brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 And he believed the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. (Genesis 15:5-6). This happened many years before Abraham was said to be justified by works in James 2:21. Notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The works of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous," not accounted as righteous.

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness. The harmony of Romans 4:2 and James 2:21 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show or prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

 

[Skinski7]

Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith.

The reason we receive grace unto obedience is because without obedience grace doesn't save anyone.

The grace of God brings salvation when that grace is yielded to wholeheartedly. That is the dynamic of grace THROUGH faith which produces a changed heart. If there is no obedience then grace is received to no working effect.

People like you who argue in favour of not having to turn from evil in order to be saved are just lying to yourselves. Jesus preached repentance and used Nineveh as an example of people who repented. In Nineveh they forsook their evil ways BEFORE God granted them mercy. You don't want to believe in that and thus when anyone writes that salvation is conditional upon turning from evil and yielding to God you oppose it. Your basically a proxy mouthpiece for Satan telling people they can sin and not surely die. Don't be a fool.

 

[Skinski7]

if good works could save us...then Jesus is irrelevant.

It's not that good works save someone, it is that a changed heart necessitates good works.

Yet it is obedience to the truth through the Spirit which purifies the soul and that means that there is no such thing as being disobedient to God and saved at the same time. It is impossible.

Jesus came to save us from sin, to remove us from sins grasp. Anyone still enslaved to sin (anyone who commits sin) is not saved.

One cannot be in jail and out of jail at the same time.

Calvinism has you completely deceived psychomom, completely.

 

[ELECT]

if good works could save us...then Jesus is irrelevant.

Can bad works cause people to go to Hell ?

 

[ELECT]

It's not that good works save someone, it is that a changed heart necessitates good works.

Yet it is obedience to the truth through the Spirit which purifies the soul and that means that there is no such thing as being disobedient to God and saved at the same time. It is impossible.

Jesus came to save us from sin, to remove us from sins grasp. Anyone still enslaved to sin (anyone who commits sin) is not saved.

One cannot be in jail and out of jail at the same time.

Calvinism has you completely deceived psychomom, completely.

Was Adam and Eve saved by works or grace ?

 

[SeaBass]

1. The question: is possible one believe in God and a rapist ? your answered is no.

It mean you believe there is correlation between believe in God and good deeds.

Salvation is product of Believe and believe produce good deeds.>>>>>> good deeds is product of salvation

2. what do you mean by follow man made faith only doctrine?

would you give me specific example?

Good deeds do not save one who has never been a Christian before. Good deeds are for those who are ALREADY Christians....

Eph 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Good deeds are for those that are ALREADY in a saved position > Christians. God before ordained that Christians walk in good works.

Can one who becomes a Christian today NEVER do any good works yet still be saved anyway?

 

[SeaBass]

John's baptism was "in regards to/in reference to" the forgiveness of sins received upon repentance/faith. In Matthew 3:11, we read - "I baptize you with water "for" repentance." Did John baptize with water for "in order to obtain" repentance or for "in regards to/in reference to" repentance? Getting baptized with water in order to obtain repentance makes no sense at all. We first repent and then afterwards we get baptized in water. The gospel of Christ is not dipped or condemned. Jesus said believe or condemned (John 3:18).



The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). No water, no works. You are obsessed with baptism. Now harmonize Mark 16:16 with John 3:18 and Acts 2:38 with Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18.



Not only mocked, but BLASPHEMED and shook his head at Jesus. That's proof enough for me of a lack of conversion. That is certainly not the fruit of repentance/faith.

He, like anyone else could have heard the teachings of Jesus, yet was not ready to receive Him, until just before his death on the cross. Jesus was also right next to him.



Pure speculation. Disciples of Christ do not mock, blaspheme and shake their heads at Jesus.



I see that you still refuse to repent and believe the gospel and continue to "parrot off" what your predecessors in the church of Christ before you have taught. Please read and meditate on 2 Corinthians 4:3,4.

John's baptism was for (eis) meaning looking forward, in order to obtain remission of sins.
Lk 7:30 "But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him."
Those that rejected John's baptism was rejecting having their sins remitted, they were rejecting God' counsel. Now what can be said of those that reject Christ's baptism for remission of sins?



When the thief was promised paradise the gospel (ggod news) was not yet in effect, Christ had no yet even died or been resurrected when the thief was promised paradise. So the thief could not even have the type of belief the NT gospel requires..."... and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised (past tense) him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Rom 10:9.
The thief could not believe God "hath raised' Christ from the dead when Christ had not even died.


Again, the fact the thief mocked and blasphemed Jesus does not prove he was never baptized. There were many that once followed Christ but later quit.....Heb 6:4,5 describes those that were once disciples/Christians but fell away to a state where they put Christ to shame and crucify Him afresh. Their putting Him to shame and crucifying Him afresh now does not mean they were never disciples of Christ before.

The fact the thief knew so much about Christ makes it possible he could have one been a disciple.

My question was: Is Christ on earth today personally forgiving the sins of those whom He thinks is deserving?

The obvious answer is NO. So no one today can make the claim they are saved in the same manner as the thief.

The thief did not live under the gospel, Heb 9:16,17. Who today can be saved outside the gospel, Rom 1:16? No one!

Nor would Christ contradict Himself by saving the thief supposedly by belief only but then turn around and require belief in His resurrection Rom 10:9, repentance, Lk 13:3,5, confession Mt 10:32,33 and baptism Mk 16:16 to be saved. Obviously the thief is an OT example of salvation and not an NT gospel of salvation that requires belief in the resurrection, repentance, confession and baptism.

 

[SeaBass]

Are good works not a part of the moral aspect of the law? Matthew 22:37-40 - Love God and your neighbor as yourself? Did Paul say believes on Him/his faith and good works is accounted for righteousness or believes on Him/his faith is accounted for righteousness? You like works righteousness better because then YOU get the credit.

Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith, not the origin of it. Was it the water that literally saved Noah and his family or the ARK? Read about what literally saved them in Hebrews 11:7.

No, and believers are already Christians before they walk in these good works, saved through faith, not works, then created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works. Believers are saved FOR good works, NOT by good works. Do you believe that these good works actually help Jesus save us?

Eph 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

It's impossible for one to become a Christian today and NEVER do any good works yet still be saved. If he never does any good works he was never converted. So these good works are a necessity for one to be a Christian and remain a faithful Christian so Paul's "worketh" in Rom 4:4 cannot include these God works God BEFORE ORDAINED Christians walk in. So if Paul's "worketh" in Rom 4:4 includes any work then that is a total contradiction of Paul's. How can Paul ever be excluding "BEFORE ORDAINED works in Rom 4:4? He couldn't without contradiction.

Jn14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments".

If Paul was excluding "any works" in Rom 4:4 then he was excluding obedient works making it impossible for anyone to ever love Christ. So evidently Paul was NOT excluding obedient works in Rom 4:4

Heb 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"
If Paul excludes obedient works in Rom 4:4 then he made it impossible for anyone to be saved.


Noah building the ark was to the "saving of his house" Had he disobeyed God, that is sinned and done unrighteousness he would have been lost with that wicked generation too. Are you suggesting Noah could have disobeyed God in not building the ark and been saved anyway?