In context: Romans 4:4-5

[Atwood]

Atwood commented:

"SB starts out the below with his typical "so," when what he posted does not imply the claim (the phony so)


Save yourselves does not occur in the text. This is a mistranslation of a passive verb. The action is not something the hearers are to do to themselves, but which will be done TO THEM by someone else (the Lord Jesus).

You misquote scripture; no one can save himself. "Save yourselves" is a mistranslation for a passive verb, BE SAVED. Also, it is not be saved from Hell, but from this crooked generation. It doesn't even say, "Be saved from Hell to go to Heaven."

Σώθητε ἀπὸ τῆς γενεᾶς τῆς σκολιᾶς ταύτης.


Σώθητε = BE SAVED (PASSIVE)
ἀπὸ τῆς γενεᾶς = from the generation
τῆς σκολιᾶς = the crooked
ταύτης = this.

Christ is the SAvior. The believer is the saved (passive), the savee.

You can no more save yourself than you can lift yourself by your own bootstraps."


To this NewB responded (incredibly) that the passive be saved somehow means "you must obey & begin to be saved!"

anyway you put it there is an action to be performed by the saved...just as Jesus speak to the body and said be healed the body obeys and begins to be heal....in the same way he says... be saved.... you must obey and begin to be saved....

Alice in Wonderland NewB. You make up nonsense. Stick with what the text says.

It says, "Be saved," Not "you must obey and begin to be saved."
Do not add to God's Word or distort it.

 

[Atwood]

IT WAS POSTED:

Luke 8:12 - Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Which acts of obedience/works are you trying to "shoe horn" between believe and be saved here?

NewB responded:

there you have it they only hear they do nothing the words take no root...

[SUP]15 [/SUP]But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience [endurance, they never perish but have eternal life]
these are the ones who believe and are saved....does it have to be written that way for you to understand?
you quote the word but you don't know the word....

Are we seeing a demo of 8:12 in action by an agent of satan?

then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

How many times does it have to be posted before NewB will believe it?
"For by grace you have been saved through faith,
And that not of yourselves, not of works lest" NewB should boast.

We are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works.

Child of Adam Sinner > Sinner trusts the Savior > Sinner receives salvation with a transformation of nature to child of God > good works result from with endurance!

 

[Atwood]

Then you believe it is a faith without works one is saved through?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Why does this nonsense continue?
The Biblical claim is
faith > salvation > works

not works > salvation.

If you want to be saved, you need to realize what a vile sinner you are, incapable of good works. Then trust the Savior to save you & change you.

What must I do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved.
No ifs, ands, or buts.

 

[Atwood]

Take God at His word.
Faith/believe is the only MUST-I-DO for salvation.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God.

[No Works, No WATER]


Eph 1:10ff
to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; 12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,— in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise of his glory.

[No Works, No WATER]

Luke 8:11-12
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 And those by the way side are they that have heard; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved.

[No Works, No WATER]

Acts 16

What must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved

1 Cor 1:21
it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.

[No Works, No WATER]


Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh shall be justified.

[No Works, No WATER]

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believes may in him have eternal life.


[No Works, No WATER]

 

[newbirth]

Once upon a time Atwood wanted a beautiful flower garden. He went to the flower shop an inquired of the shop owner ...what must I do to have a beautiful flower garden? The shop owner replied...take these seed and plant them and in one week they will grow into the most beautiful flower garden you ever saw. So Atwood left with the seed and planted them as soon as he reached home. One week later Atwood was back at the shop...Mr shop owner you lied to me ...you said in two weeks I would have a beautiful garden...and its two weeks but there is no garden...I believed you but you lied to me ...I did just as you told me I planted the seeds but now I have no garden to show...Then the shop owner said to him...Atwood did you till the soil and water the seeds...Atwood looked up at him in amazement and roared back ...didn't you read my post.....[No Works, No WATER]

 

[Alligator]

Why does this nonsense continue?
The Biblical claim is
faith > salvation > works

not works > salvation.

If you want to be saved, you need to realize what a vile sinner you are, incapable of good works. Then trust the Savior to save you & change you.

What must I do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved.
No ifs, ands, or buts.

Atwood, hands down the king of cherry pickers, no if, ands, or buts.

 

[mailmandan]

there you have it they only hear they do nothing the words take no root...

First the word takes root, then they something. Don't confuse cause and effect.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. these are the ones who believe and are saved....does it have to be written that way for you to understand?

They believe and are saved first, then they produce fruit as a result. They received the word with an honest and good heart, not a shallow rocky heart in which the word does not take root.

you quote the word but you don't know the word....

That statement is the epitome of irony.

 

[Atwood]

Atwood, hands down the king of cherry pickers, no if, ands, or buts.

I read the entire Bible (ASV) through one year, marking every passage on salvation in pink. Have you even read the Bible through once? I have memorized through entire NT books, one verse at a time, in Greek.

The revelation is clear & overwhelming: Believe on the Lord Jesus, and YOU SHALL BE SAVED. Over & over salvation is offered you just for trusting the Savior. It does cost you your religious pride.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

JOHN 20:30
Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

When John 3:16 was in production, no one turned on a faucet.
Whosoever believes . . . everlasting life!
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

 

[Alligator]

​

I read the entire Bible (ASV) through one year, marking every passage on salvation in pink. Have you even read the Bible through once? I have memorized through entire NT books, one verse at a time, in Greek.

The revelation is clear & overwhelming: Believe on the Lord Jesus, and YOU SHALL BE SAVED. Over & over salvation is offered you just for trusting the Savior. It does cost you your religious pride.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

JOHN 20:30
Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

When John 3:16 was in production, no one turned on a faucet.
Whosoever believes . . . everlasting life!
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Atwood, the king of braggers, no ifs, ands, or buts.

At

 

[newbirth]

Atwood commented:

"SB starts out the below with his typical "so," when what he posted does not imply the claim (the phony so)


Save yourselves does not occur in the text. This is a mistranslation of a passive verb. The action is not something the hearers are to do to themselves, but which will be done TO THEM by someone else (the Lord Jesus).

You misquote scripture; no one can save himself. "Save yourselves" is a mistranslation for a passive verb, BE SAVED. Also, it is not be saved from Hell, but from this crooked generation. It doesn't even say, "Be saved from Hell to go to Heaven."

Σώθητε ἀπὸ τῆς γενεᾶς τῆς σκολιᾶς ταύτης.


Σώθητε = BE SAVED (PASSIVE)
ἀπὸ τῆς γενεᾶς = from the generation
τῆς σκολιᾶς = the crooked
ταύτης = this.

Christ is the SAvior. The believer is the saved (passive), the savee.

You can no more save yourself than you can lift yourself by your own bootstraps."


To this NewB responded (incredibly) that the passive be saved somehow means "you must obey & begin to be saved!"



Alice in Wonderland NewB. You make up nonsense. Stick with what the text says.

It says, "Be saved," Not "you must obey and begin to be saved."
Do not add to God's Word or distort it.

you posted elsewhere salvation is a process ...we were saved....we are being saved ...and we shall be saved...that's a process it has a beginning a middle and an end...are you saying you no longer believe that or you have no recollection or no understanding?

 

[newbirth]

IT WAS POSTED:

Luke 8:12 - Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Which acts of obedience/works are you trying to "shoe horn" between believe and be saved here?

NewB responded:



Are we seeing a demo of 8:12 in action by an agent of satan?

then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

How many times does it have to be posted before NewB will believe it?
"For by grace you have been saved through faith,
And that not of yourselves, not of works lest" NewB should boast.

We are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works.

Child of Adam Sinner > Sinner trusts the Savior > Sinner receives salvation with a transformation of nature to child of God > good works result from with endurance!

Atwood reads but cannot understand...he thinks if someone believes they don't have to do anything else to be saved...but the scripture is clear in vs [SUP]15 [/SUP]But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

meaning if those in vs 12 had believed they would have done likewise

look at the account in Matthew
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

 

[newbirth]

First the word takes root, then they something. Don't confuse cause and effect.



They believe and are saved first, then they produce fruit as a result. They received the word with an honest and good heart, not a shallow rocky heart in which the word does not take root.



That statement is the epitome of irony.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

show where the word took root in those by the wayside...

vs 15 says nothing about believe and saved first...they heard the word ,kept it and brought fort fruit with patience... the good ground represents good and honest people...who heard the word just as the others...

 

[mailmandan]

show where the word took root in those by the wayside...

The word didn't take root in those by the wayside.

vs 15 says nothing about believe and saved first...

Verse 12 says believe and be saved. In verse 15, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. This is believe and saved first then we see the fruit that follows - bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty (Matthew 13:23). Fruit follows saving faith that is rooted and established.

they heard the word, kept it and brought fort fruit with patience... the good ground represents good and honest people...who heard the word just as the others...

Yet the others were not said to have good and honest hearts and they did not bear fruit, which demonstrates what about how they received the word?

 

[royalscot]

how many jewish got water baptisim. at the beginning of this ministry, hence get baptised with water now after pentecost.

teachers of law etc take animal to temple. for forgivness, etc

 

[royalscot]

Race or nationality does not matter, Acts 2:41,44 shows one, anyone, who has not been baptized has not gladly received the gospel.

try an keep up,
when was a gentile at pentecost. was peter there, at pentecost and what law was he to repent of.
and to you all in 2014, how can you follow the full law of moses without a temple of stone.70 ad
around 48 ad
28 And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.29 So when I was sent for, I came without objection. I ask then why you sent for me."Acts 10

 

[royalscot]

try an keep up,
when was a gentile at pentecost. was peter there, at pentecost and what law was he to repent of.
and to you all in 2014, how can you follow the full law of moses without a temple of stone.70 ad
around 48 ad
28 And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.29 So when I was sent for, I came without objection. I ask then why you sent for me."Acts 10

44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared,47 "Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.Acts 10

firsy time for every thing

but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.29 So when I was sent for, I came without objection

 

[royalscot]

Atwood reads but cannot understand...he thinks if someone believes they don't have to do anything else to be saved...but the scripture is clear in vs [SUP]15 [/SUP]But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

meaning if those in vs 12 had believed they would have done likewise

look at the account in Matthew
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

the numbers denotes, converts to what has been sown in you.
was jesus wallking on earth, or in heaven at the time of speaking this parable.

would a new covenant be in place at this time.

21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.



37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
when did that depend on me.

 

[Alligator]

Atwood commented:

"SB starts out the below with his typical "so," when what he posted does not imply the claim (the phony so)


Save yourselves does not occur in the text. This is a mistranslation of a passive verb. The action is not something the hearers are to do to themselves, but which will be done TO THEM by someone else (the Lord Jesus).

You misquote scripture; no one can save himself. "Save yourselves" is a mistranslation for a passive verb, BE SAVED. Also, it is not be saved from Hell, but from this crooked generation. It doesn't even say, "Be saved from Hell to go to Heaven."
I
Σώθητε ἀπὸ τῆς γενεᾶς τῆς σκολιᾶς ταύτης.


Σώθητε = BE SAVED (PASSIVE)
ἀπὸ τῆς γενεᾶς = from the generation
τῆς σκολιᾶς = the crooked
ταύτης = this.

Christ is the SAvior. The believer is the saved (passive), the savee..

You can no more save yourself than you can lift yourself by your own bootstraps."


To this NewB responded (incredibly) that the passive be saved somehow means "you must obey & begin to be saved!"



Alice in Wonderland NewB. You make up nonsense. Stick with what the text says.

It says, "Be saved," Not "you must obey and begin to be saved."
Do not add to God's Word or distort it.

t




No, it is you who is subtracting from GOD's word.

Hebrews 5:8-9Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

8 though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

[royalscot]

t




No, it is you who is subtracting from GOD's word.

Hebrews 5:8-9Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

8 though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

hebrews wrote about 60 ad, what happen in the time line at 70 ad

60 but they found none, though many false witnesses came forward. At last two came forward61 and said, "This man said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to rebuild it in three days.'"


22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.23
Revelation 21

 

[Atwood]

8 though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Yes, one must obey, give heed to the Lord Jesus to be saved, and the only command to which he demands obedience for salvation is this one:

What must I do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus, & you shall be saved.

Not of works, lest Alligator should boast. You must by faith enter His rest, resting from your works. (Hebrews 3-5)

[NO WATER!]

Act 13:48
And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

[NO WATER! NO WORKS!]

Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: 16 howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.
1 Tim 1:15-17

[NO WATER! NO WORKS!]

Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.

[NO WATER! NO WORKS!]

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God.
[NO WATER! NO WORKS!]

Eph 1:10ff
to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; 12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,— in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise of his glory.

[NO WATER! NO WORKS!]