In context: Romans 4:4-5

[SeaBass]

The record is clear, speaks for itself and needs no clarification.

The record is clear. You posted:

To be a Christian one must have saving faith, which is belief + works

So the purpose of this thread was to show that it takes obedient works to become a Christian and good works to remain a faithful Christian....no works = no salvation

 

[SeaBass]

Elin, it seem. you are still saying that Justification is the whole of God's salvation for us, thus denying the need of the new Birth of God to convert the sinner into a SAINT. so to do good works for GOD's glory. And Seabass, seems you are still saying one needs to do good works before they are saved. You both are saying your old heresies. Love Hoffco

No, what the bible says is one must do obedient works of belief, repentance confession and submitting to BECOME a Christian. Then AFTER one is already a Christian he must do good works to remain in a saved position.

The old, man-made heresy is one can become saved WITHOUT doing the works of belief, repentance, confession and submitting to baptism. Or that one can be a Christian WITHOUT doing good works.

 

[SeaBass]

You both need to say, God has to powerfully convert the sinner before they can believe and do good works for the salvation of their souls. Love Hoffco

Then that would put fault and blame on God for all those that remain unconverted and lost.

 

[SeaBass]

I am saying

rebirth-->faith (repentance of unbelief)-->justification-->sanctification-->glorification

You have one saved BEFORE having faith/working righteousness which is not biblically possible.

 

[SeaBass]

I sure know that if my salvation had to depend on my works, I'm sunk

What does your salvation depend upon?

 

[SeaBass]

From before the foundation of the world, it's all a done deal (past tense), from rebirth to glorification
(Ro 8:30), which is then accomplished in time.

So God desires not all men but just a few men to come to repentance and be saved.

 

[Elin]

From before the foundation of the world, it's all a done deal (past tense),
from rebirth to glorification (Ro 8:30), which is then accomplished in time.

So God desires not all men but just a few men to come to repentance and be saved.

Are you setting the Scriptures against themselves?

That demonstrates one does not correctly understand them.

So those whom God has predestined, he hasn't called, justified and glorified (past tense, done deal)?

 

[SeaBass]

....a context that is frequently taken out of context...

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Paul is contrasting "him that worketh" to "him that believeth". Since we know from verses as Jh 6:27-29 belief is itself a work then the "worketh" Paul speaks of cannot include the obedient work of believing. Paul in verse 4 tells us the type of work he is speaking about, a work where ones reward is "not reckoned of grace but of debt". If one could work to keep the law perfectly, sinlessly then his reward is not of grace but something owed him, a debt. So in verse 4 Paul is speaking about works of merit where the reward is earned and contrasting "works of merit" to "works of obedience/believing". (Paul makes this same contrast between works of merit and submitting/obeying the righteousness/commandments of God in Rom 10:3)

In the context of Rom 4, Abraham was one who did not do works of merit trying to earn his salvation for Abraham sinned but Abraham had an obedient belief. James 2:21-24 says Abraham was justified by works...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified. So the "worketh not" that Paul speaks of in Rom 4:5 CANNOT include the works James speaks of that do justify.

Since Paul and James do not contradict each other, it becomes apparent that the works Paul speaks of that do not justify are "works of merit" and the works James speaks of that do justify are obedient works.

Paul says in Rom 4:5 that -----believing>>>>>>>>justifies
James says in Jam 2 that ------works>>>>>>>>>> justify

Since there is just one way to be justified/saved, then believing is an obedient work that justifies and not a work of merit where one's reward is of debt and not of grace.


So when one takes "worketh not" of Rom 4:4 out of context and tries to make it include ALL types of works, then they are creating a whole host contradictions. They create a contradiction with James who said by works a man is justified and with Paul also who in Rom 6:17,18 shows that when one obeys from the heart, then he is freed from sin/justified.

ADDENDUM:

Some Jews that became Christians still would cling to the OT law in some way and in Rom 4 Paul was proving to the Jewish Christians in Rome,

1) that the OT law does not justify but only allowed for perfect, flawless law-keeping where one's reward would then be of merit and not of grace, verse 3,4

2) circumcision is not necessary to be saved, verses 9-11.

Paul used Abraham as an example of one who did NOT work to keep the law perfectly so he could merit his reward but instead had an obedient faith and Paul also used Abraham as an example of one reckoned righteous is uncircumcision.

Which brings us to Rom 4:12:

"And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised."

Paul is saying the true descendants of Abraham are those who share in the same OBEDIENT faith as Abraham, those "who also walk in the steps of our father Abraham". Paul is making a contrast between an obedient faith/those that "walk" as Abraham to perfect law-keeping.

The word verb "walk" has to to with obedience, Abraham did not have a workless, dead faith only, thereby one must WALK in the steps of faith as Abraham to be a true descendant of Abraham.

Coffman Commentary (in blue) makes an interesting comment on the word 'walk':

Who also walk after the steps of that faith of our father Abraham ... These words mean "who have an obedient faith like Abraham." Abrahamic faith was not any such thing as faith ONLY, but it was a faith that walked after God's commandments, as pointed out under Romans 4:3; and Gentiles (or others) who would participate in the promise of salvation God gave through Abraham are here identified as those who "walk" in the steps of that faith, which is a way of saying they must have an obedient faith as did Abraham. Some of the so-called translations and modern speech renditions of the New Testament have butchered this verse by eliminating all reference to obedience:

For Abraham found favor with God by faith alone, before he was circumcised (The Living Word New Testament, paraphrased).

For those who have the faith of Abraham (NEB).

Because they live the same life of faith (The New Testament in Today's English).

The word "walk" or "tread" is in the Greek New Testament, and it should be in all valid translations of the word of God; but that expression is so obviously a reference to obedience that it cannot fit into the theories of salvation by faith alone; and the conviction persists that this fact influenced some of the so-called translations. It is admitted by all that Christians are saved by the same kind of faith Abraham had, before circumcision and the law; and a further study of the steps of Abraham's faith will reveal that obedience was coupled with it, and that it was by obedient faith that Abraham was justified.


At least 3 "translations" went so far as to avoid using the word "walk" with one even perverting the text to "Abraham found favor with God by faith alone". The same perversion that takes place here in changing to the text to "faith only" is the same that takes place in Rom 4:5 in adding the word "alone" to the verse. Abraham did not "believe only" in verse 5 no more than he had "faith only" in verse 12.

​