In context: Romans 4:4-5

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Cassian

Senior Member
#661
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
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#661
Elin said:
I note your difference between what Scripture "actually states," and
what Scripture "has always meant."

"Interesting" twist of actually stating, to differently meaning.

I'm sure you will understand if I go with what Scripture actually states.

My response, here, to your distinction between what Scripture states and what it means,

is clear, speaks for itself and needs no further response.
Click to expand...
All you have done is confirmed that scripture states/means whatever man interprets it to mean. You are just one of thousands to make the claims that they believe what it states, but then proceed to give their personal opinion as to what it means for them.

Scripture has only one meaning and that meaning has been the same from the beginning. The Holy Spirit has preserved the Gospel, God's revelation to man unchanged from the beginning.

Unlike the morass, personal, sectarian, philosophical realm of sola scriptura which makes the scriptures null and void. You treat it as a source to take ideas from to develop your personal religion.
 
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Elin

Banned
#662
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#662
Cassian said:
Elin said:
I note your difference between what Scripture "actually states," and
what Scripture "has always meant."

"Interesting" twist of actually stating, to differently meaning.

I'm sure you will understand if I go with what Scripture actually states.
Click to expand...
Scripture has only one meaning and that meaning has been the same from the beginning.
Click to expand...
My response, here, to your distinction between what Scripture states and what it means,

is clear, speaks for itself and needs no further response.
 
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Cassian

Senior Member
#663
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
7
0
#663
Elin said:
My response, here, to your distinction between what Scripture states and what it means,

is clear, speaks for itself and needs no further response.
Click to expand...
amazing, you misparaphrased it the first time and still missed it after I explained what it means.

The bottom line is that a sola scripturist never starts with what scripture means but what it means to him as interpreted by him. You have hundreds of examples including yourself.
 
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Elin

Banned
#664
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
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#664
Cassian said:
Elin said:
Cassian said:
Elin said:
I note your difference between what Scripture "actually states," and
what Scripture "has always meant."

"Interesting" twist of actually stating, to differently meaning.

I'm sure you will understand if I go with what Scripture actually states.
Click to expand...
Scripture has only one meaning and that meaning has been the same from the beginning.
Click to expand...
My response, here, to your distinction between what Scripture states and

what it means, is clear, speaks for itself and needs no further response.
Click to expand...
amazing, you misparaphrased it the first time and still missed it after I explained what it means.

The bottom line is that a sola scripturist never starts with what scripture means but what it means to him as interpreted by him. You have hundreds of examples including yourself.
Click to expand...
My response, here, to your distinction between what Scripture states and what it means,

is clear, speaks for itself and needs no further response.
 
SeaBass

SeaBass

Banned
#665
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
#665
dcontroversal said:
No...unlike you and your Alexander Campbellism, she understands that WORKS have nothing at all to do with biblical salvation which is by faith dia grace......
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Elin evidently said it is a contradiction of terms that a Christian would not do any good works. It is not possible for "Joe" to become a Christian today yet NEVER do any good works and yet be saved anyway. How can "Joe" not do good works when God before ordained Christians walk in good works?

So Elin's post made it impossible for one to be a Christian without doing good works.
 
SeaBass

SeaBass

Banned
#666
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
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#666
Elin said:
Actually, what it killed was your strawman.

To be a Christian one must have saving faith, which is belief + works,

where only the gift of belief (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3) by grace
gives him salvation from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) at the final judgment.
Click to expand...

You just killed your workless, faith only again!!!!!!

You just made it impossible for one to be a Christian WITHOUT belief + works.

(I hi-lited and underlined in your post above your affirmation to this.)
 
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Bride

Bride

Banned
#667
Oct 24, 2014
595
14
0
#667
A true Sola Scripturist as myself, is an exegetic, not an isogetic. He or she spends years being amazed at how their preconceived ideas of God and scripture were wrong, and constantly became overhauled in one's revelation of meaning of Scriptures by the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ Himself IN US. As a result, suffering being asked to leave the church, being divorced, having one's family taken from them etc. Who would want that? But I am glad to suffer from the religious world as I have, to have been revealed the Power and Glory and Majesty in the face of Jesus Christ. That's not something that any denomination can give you, protestant OR catholic.
A person with a true heart toward knowing the One and only True Living God, will, in their study of Holy Writ, never seek to prove their own concepts in the Bible. Someone here said that, that was a very wrong wrong thing to say. That is in fact the opposite of what sola scriptura even means. That statement appears to slam the most noble spirit in a man possible. Why? Their is no other way to know Jesus personally. And once I have come to know Jesus personally, I'd never turn back to any of the religions that call themselves Christian, except to help save others out of the rites and rituals and creeds of men that slowly suffocate life out of them.
 
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Elin

Banned
#668
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
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#668
SeaBass said:
Elin said:
Actually, what it killed was your strawman.

To be a Christian one must have saving faith, which is belief + works,

where only the gift of belief (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3) by grace
gives him salvation from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) at the final judgment.
Click to expand...
You just killed your workless, faith only again!

You just made it impossible for one to be a Christian WITHOUT belief + works.

(I hi-lited and underlined in your post above your affirmation to this.)
Click to expand...
Addressed above.
 
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Elin

Banned
#670
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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#670
SeaBass said:
It was addressed above where you said that for one who is a Christian must do works.

Can one be a Christian and NOT do works?
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Previously addressed. . .multiple times.

You're repeating yourself.
 
SeaBass

SeaBass

Banned
#671
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
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#671
Elin said:
Previously addressed. . .multiple times.

You're repeating yourself.
Click to expand...

I am repeating what YOU posted in making it impossible to be a Christian yet not have belief + WORKS.

You now are avoiding what you posted.
 
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Elin

Banned
#672
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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#672
SeaBass said:
I am repeating what YOU posted in making it impossible to be a Christian yet not have belief + WORKS.

You now are avoiding what you posted.
Click to expand...
The record is clear, speaks for itself and needs no clarification.
 
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Hoffco

Guest
#673
#673
Elin, it seem. you are still saying that Justification is the whole of God's salvation for us, thus denying the need of the new Birth of God to convert the sinner into a SAINT. so to do good works for GOD's glory. And Seabass, seems you are still saying one needs to do good works before they are saved. You both are saying your old heresies. Love Hoffco
 
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Hoffco

Guest
#674
#674
You both need to say, God has to powerfully convert the sinner before they can believe and do good works for the salvation of their souls. Love Hoffco
 
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Elin

Banned
#675
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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#675
Hoffco said:
Elin, it seem. you are still saying that Justification is the whole of God's salvation for us, thus denying the need of the new Birth of God to convert the sinner into a SAINT. so to do good works for GOD's glory. And Seabass, seems you are still saying one needs to do good works before they are saved. You both are saying your old heresies. Love Hoffco
Click to expand...
I am saying

rebirth-->faith (repentance of unbelief)-->justification-->sanctification-->glorification
 
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Hoffco

Guest
#676
#676
It is good to be back on the internet. We had no provider for the last month. I missed my favorite sites and e-mail. I now need to get someone to set up our web-site. Our ministry is doing well and I am still alive, no terrorists have killed me. Love Hoffco
 
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Hoffco

Guest
#677
#677
Elin your big problem is that the rebirth for you is only a "POSITIONAL" change; As Charles Stanley ,and all the other heretics you teach a "decisional regeneration", that does not convert, change the sinner into a saint. Christians are always called "holy ones","saints", because they have a new ,holy nature, heart, that enables them to savingly, commit to and believe on Jesus and do good works, Please read Jh. 3:21. "They who do good deeds come to the light," To JESUS and so show they are born of God. Love Hoffco
 
Bride

Bride

Banned
#678
Oct 24, 2014
595
14
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#678
I sure know that if my salvation had to depend on my works, I'm sunk :(
 
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Elin

Banned
#679
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
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#679
Hoffco said:
Elin your big problem is that the rebirth for you is only a "POSITIONAL" change; As Charles Stanley ,and all the other heretics you teach a "decisional regeneration", that does not convert, change the sinner into a saint. Christians are always called "holy ones","saints", because they have a new ,holy nature, heart, that enables them to savingly, commit to and believe on Jesus and do good works, Please read Jh. 3:21. "They who do good deeds come to the light," To JESUS and so show they are born of God. Love Hoffco
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From before the foundation of the world, it's all a done deal (past tense), from rebirth to glorification
(Ro 8:30), which is then accomplished in time.
 
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Calminian

Guest
#680
#680
Hoffco said:
You both need to say, God has to powerfully convert the sinner before they can believe and do good works for the salvation of their souls. Love Hoffco
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Hoffco, what about the other step that is mentioned in Romans 4 and that's reckoning or crediting? It's not the faith in and of itself but the reckoning of faith that saves us. Right?

I mention that because you seem to be saying that faith is a result of conversion, but I have to ask, if it is, then why was a reckoning by God necessary. If faith is something that is not a work of righteousness, then it makes perfect it sense God would have to account it as something righteous, but if faith is an outpouring of conversion, why would the next step of reckoning or crediting be necessary.

Rom. 4:1 What then shall we saya that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

I have a felling you're turning faith into a work, which is very contradictory of Paul's writings.
 
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