A Biblical Defense of Sola Scriptura!

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Nov 30, 2012
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Not according to Athanasius, it wasn't. In his 'Decrees', as far as I have found, he explicitly states that Hermas was not considered "canon". No mention of AoP. Given that, apart from the canons themselves (which don't mention biblical canon), he's our most detailed account of what actually happened at Nicea and given he only refers to Hermas in discussing the Arian heresy, Ill have to ask for some further sourcing before believing either of those texts were viewed as Scripture by the council. The whole thrust of Athanasius' passing comment assumes they were not commonly considered such.

In any case, it seems there was no formal discussion of canon, and Ath's reference is only precipitated by the use of Hermas by Eusebius.

A side point, but I think its worth being as accurate point on a matter frequently misused and miscited. :)
Did you read what I wrote? Or did you misinterpret? It was at the Council that the two received the "DEATH NAIL" to them ever being considered Scripture. Those two books were removed and denounced and officially rejected at the Council of Nicea BECAUSE of Athanasius. Both Hermas and AoP were used by the Arian heretics.

However, for most to know, 2 major things came out of Nicea, the Nicene Creed and the first version of the Athanasian Creed.
 
Nov 30, 2012
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If the root is corrupt...so is the tree and yes the Catholic Church does worship the things listed above in post 85.....and my statement on babies and youth being IMMERSED (sprinkling not valid) does apply to any religion that does such things.......
You honestly believe that God sits in Heaven watches someone get water sprinkled on their forehead (Which never happens, water is placed or poured...I'll say that again, POURED on their head) and God begins screaming, "THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH!" Your god isn't big enough.
 
Jul 25, 2013
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Did you catch that? It essentially says these things (Within the book of John) are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ and that we might have life (eternal life) through his name. In other words, a person can receive eternal life or salvation in Jesus Christ by reading the book of John. This is the "Written of God." In other words, this shows that the "Written Word of God" alone is sufficient to bring us to saving faith in God. QUOTE/Jason0047

Acts 8:29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot." 30Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" 31And he said, "Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.…

Did you catch that? unless someone guides me? You can read all day long and it won't do a bit of good unless the Spirit guides. And that Spirit isn't a book or novel or some paperback. That Spirit is Jesus who alone works the SAVING faith.



 
Jul 22, 2014
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Did you catch that? It essentially says these things (Within the book of John) are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ and that we might have life (eternal life) through his name. In other words, a person can receive eternal life or salvation in Jesus Christ by reading the book of John. This is the "Written of God." In other words, this shows that the "Written Word of God" alone is sufficient to bring us to saving faith in God. QUOTE/Jason0047

Acts 8:29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot." 30Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" 31And he said, "Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.…

Did you catch that? unless someone guides me? You can read all day long and it won't do a bit of good unless the Spirit guides. And that Spirit isn't a book or novel or some paperback. That Spirit is Jesus who alone works the SAVING faith.



Show me where I said a person is saved without God transforming their heart. Never said such a thing. However, the Lord will always use his Word with an adult or person who has the understanding to accept Him. Revelation 22:18-19 and other related passages make it clear that you can't preach another gospel or add unto God's Word. Revelation is telling us to look for Christ's return and not a new revelation.
 
Jul 25, 2013
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Right here: ALONE IS SUFFICIENT

In other words, this shows that the "Written Word of God" alone is sufficient to bring us to saving faith in God. QUOTE/Jason0047

And by the way, alot of things are happening before the return of Christ that aren't written in Rev.
 
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Jul 22, 2014
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Right here: ALONE IS SUFFICIENT

In other words, this shows that the "Written Word of God" alone is sufficient to bring us to saving faith in God. QUOTE/Jason0047

And by the way, alot of things are happening before the return of Christ.
Are you here to just sow discord or do honestly believe that is what I meant?
If it is the latter, I assure you that is not what I was saying. For if you were to read thru this entire thread on what I wrote, then you would see that such a thing is not the case.
 
Jul 25, 2013
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I read your OP Jason and didn't agree with the header. And I think I explained very well with scripture why.
 

gzusfrk

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Heaven and earth will pass away but my Words will not pass away. Matthew 24:35, Mark 13:31 Luke 21:33,
 
Jul 22, 2014
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I read your OP Jason and didn't agree with the header. And I think I explained very well with scripture why.
You only provided one example in Scripture and very little commentary and I don't think you're example works. For men have been saved just by picking up and reading a Bible in a hotel. Philip and the Ethiopian Enuch is just an example of a New Testament believer showing him about Jesus from Isaiah. But Philip did not add a new teaching involving the gospel. It was the same gospel that was written down by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Acts 17:11 lets us know that the spoken Word of God is always confirmed by the Written Word.

And Revelation 22:18-19 at the end of your Bible means you cannot add or take away from it.
 
Jul 25, 2013
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You only provided one example in Scripture and very little commentary and I don't think you're example works. For men have been saved just by picking up and reading a Bible in a hotel. Philip and the Ethiopian Enuch is just an example of a New Testament believer showing him about Jesus from Isaiah. But Philip did not add a new teaching involving the gospel. It was the same gospel that was written down by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Acts 17:11 lets us know that the spoken Word of God is always confirmed by the Written Word.

And Revelation 22:18-19 at the end of your Bible means you cannot add or take away from it.
Means you cant take away from the book of Rev. Period. Or are you adding words like "oh that means the whole bible" to it because that would defeat the whole purpose of the statement.

You don't think my example works. My example is the Holy Spirit working...Ok.
I wasn't talking about adding or editing a new teaching involving the gospel that is contrary to what is written. I basically said the HS still teaches us today from within and not a learning just from the written word. And Acts 17:11 doesn't always let us know that the spoken word is confirmed by the written word. Because the Word isn't all written. FOR THIS WE KNOW IN PART.....So what about the part we don't know? You believe the Spirit don't enlighten us at His will? Sad....
You don't believe in visions and dreams either do you?. And don't make me quote you on that. You sound very RC-P.
 
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Jul 25, 2013
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Anyway Jason, I was just throwing in my two cents, as I think it gives people something to think about. Back in the day all they had was the OT. The rest was Jesus in person and then the HS. Today we have a confused new testament where Matt Mark Luke and John are portrayed as the 4 gospels when they are actually part of the continuing OT up until Christ gave up the Spirit and an explaining and understanding of the OT where Jews didn't understand it was a testimony of the man Jesus. And since we have this NT now it seems people don't have the Spirit in them but just reread a book and argue about it forgetting all about the Spirit who still does things unexplainable and not written in that book.
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
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Did you read what I wrote? Or did you misinterpret? It was at the Council that the two received the "DEATH NAIL" to them ever being considered Scripture. Those two books were removed and denounced and officially rejected at the Council of Nicea BECAUSE of Athanasius. Both Hermas and AoP were used by the Arian heretics.

However, for most to know, 2 major things came out of Nicea, the Nicene Creed and the first version of the Athanasian Creed.
You said:

Canon was discussed at Nicea. However, it was not confirmed at Nicea. Both Shepherd of Hermas and the Acts of Peter ended being held as Scripture at Nicea. It was the following councils that defined the canon, but Nicea was the beginning. This is why it is often referred to, though most don't delve deeply into the history. It's often best to mention it as you have, as a point of order.


I'm sorry if you misspoke or mistyped, but I did read what you wrote, and I think I understood what you wrote correctly, even if what you wrote was not what you meant.

I don't really want to go on with this, because it's a side issue. But I get frustrated when people make historical assertions (particularly on canonical questions) without evidence.

You haven't really established that canon was formally discussed at all at Nicea. Again, Athanasius only mentions the Shepherd in relation to its use by Eusebius of Nicomedia in defence of Arius (in 'Decrees'), and almost offhandedly mentions it as non canonical - there was certainly no discussion about its worth as a canonical book (in fact, given the earlier scepticism of the likes of Origen and Tertullian, it seems likely that by the fourth century there was some level of consensus that the Shepherd, while perhaps useful, was not apostolic nor canonical). Even then, it's striking to me that Athanasius still refutes Arianism on the basis of the text of the Shepherd, which would seem to make it odd to subsequently ban the book at the Council because of the Arian heresy - Athanasius seems to take the view that the Shepherd was not Arian nor gnostic, otherwise presumably he wouldn't bother to use arguments from it. Even then, there is still no evidence of an actual discussion on canonical or non-canonical books at the Council.

Worth noting, again, that neither Athanasius (in 'Decrees' or in his Easter letter), nor the Canons of Nicea, mention the Acts of Peter. In fact, I consider it highly doubtful that there was any one dominant Greek text titled 'Acts of Peter', mainly because most of the patristic references to Petrine traditions are non specific and most probably do not even refer to a written text - and the actual MSS are basically limited to the main seventh century Latin text usually identified with the Acts, a Coptic fragment of a possibly parallel, but not dependent or merely translated text, and fragmentary Greek crucifixion narratives, again not dependent on any of the other MSS.

If you have a source for Arian use of a definitive Acts of Peter, or for that matter the use of any non-canonical Petrine tradition at Nicea, I'd be interested in seeing it. Any official rejection by the Council of Hermas or AoP would be interesting as well.

Otherwise, I stand by what I originally said - there was no formal discussion of biblical canon at Nicea at all. What discussion there was (by Ath) was on the basis of Arian arguments from non canonical texts, and even then his approach seems primarily have been to show the arguments were wrong on their own terms, rather than circle-draw and exclude those arguments on canonical grounds (Ath elsewhere actually is quite positive towards the Shepherd, even if he denies it is an inspired text - 'Incarnation of the Word').

Otherwise, yes - the Nicene Creed, as a response to Arianism, was really the main thing to come out of Nicea of lasting historical significance. I'm sceptical of Athanasius actually writing the Athanasian Creed, mostly because he never mentions it or quotes from it in any of his writings, nor have I seen a source showing it being mentioned at any Council, but that is well and truly out of the park in terms of relevance.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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You don't think my example works. My example is the Holy Spirit working...Ok.
So you were never wrong in understanding or quoting Scripture? You don't think you have to study to show you're self approved unto God?

I wasn't talking about adding or editing a new teaching involving the gospel that is contrary to what is written. I basically said the HS still teaches us today from within and not a learning just from the written word.
I believe there is no new added revelation or words of God besides the Bible . God talks and teaches us using His Word in some way. If there is no Word of God involved then I would be careful. The Bible tells us to test the spirits.

And Acts 17:11 doesn't always let us know that the spoken word is confirmed by the written word. Because the Word isn't all written. FOR THIS WE KNOW IN PART.....So what about the part we don't know? You believe the Spirit don't enlighten us at His will? Sad....
You don't believe in visions and dreams either do you?. And don't make me quote you on that. You sound very RC-P.
I believe God does not add to His own Word. He merely magnifies it. I have had prophetic dreams before. These dreams are not new spoken or written Words of God that should be added to the Bible. I also have experienced the Spirit of God talking to me in every day life situations but the Word of God was always magnified during these times.
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
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The Word existed perfectly in written form in Latin manuscripts (Not the corrupt Latin Vulgate Roman Catholic manuscripts) before the KJV 1769 (1611). Before the Latin, they existed perfectly in Greek manuscripts (NT) and Hebrew manuscripts (OT). But as I said before, only the "Written Word of God" now exists from after the point of the close of the book of Revelation (When John's scroll was complete).
This is a secondary issue, Jason, so happy for you to take it up with me in PM or in one of the KJV threads, but I'm curious - do you believe the KJV translators worked from one authoritative Greek (or I suppose Latin) text in their translation?
 
Jul 22, 2014
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There is an example of a life experience involving a baby deer I had that magnified God's Word.

You can check that out here.
 
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Jul 25, 2013
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So you were never wrong in understanding or quoting Scripture? You don't think you have to study to show you're self approved unto God?QUOTE/Jason

Been wrong many times and yes we have to show ourselves approved before God. Thanks for the responses.
 
Nov 30, 2012
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Worth noting, again, that neither Athanasius (in 'Decrees' or in his Easter letter), nor the Canons of Nicea, mention the Acts of Peter.

Otherwise, I stand by what I originally said - there was no formal discussion of biblical canon at Nicea at all.

I'm sceptical of Athanasius actually writing the Athanasian Creed, mostly because he never mentions it or quotes from it in any of his writings, nor have I seen a source showing it being mentioned at any Council, but that is well and truly out of the park in terms of relevance.
You're right, I'm sorry, for some reason as we were discussing Athanasius I mixed in Iranaeus, which is a huge leap in centuries I know. However, Augustine mentions the Gospel of Peter and the Acts of Peter being used by the Corinthian Church, until a "papal edict" denounced the Scriptures. "Papal Edict" is the modern term, Augustine called it the decision of the Bishop, though at the time of Augustine there were no Bishops over Corinth, and himself being a Bishop at the time, most scholars believe he is speaking of the Bishop of Rome.

Second, my study of the discussion of Canon at Nicea was short. I took a class on the discussion of Canon, and we discussed that the Canon of Scripture is discussed and tabled at Nicea. It's cited in one of the Bishops who went, who stated that he and others sought to bring up the heretical Scriptures and was rebuffed (I'll look up his name in my textbook. I don't have it on me).

Third, yes, that's why I said the first version of the Athanasian Creed. We do read about Athanasius arguing the doctrine of the Trinity. Though he did not pen the Creed exactly as written, most scholars feel that it is based off of a Creed written and espoused by Athanasius and the early Church.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
You're right, I'm sorry, for some reason as we were discussing Athanasius I mixed in Iranaeus, which is a huge leap in centuries I know. However, Augustine mentions the Gospel of Peter and the Acts of Peter being used by the Corinthian Church, until a "papal edict" denounced the Scriptures. "Papal Edict" is the modern term, Augustine called it the decision of the Bishop, though at the time of Augustine there were no Bishops over Corinth, and himself being a Bishop at the time, most scholars believe he is speaking of the Bishop of Rome.

Second, my study of the discussion of Canon at Nicea was short. I took a class on the discussion of Canon, and we discussed that the Canon of Scripture is discussed and tabled at Nicea. It's cited in one of the Bishops who went, who stated that he and others sought to bring up the heretical Scriptures and was rebuffed (I'll look up his name in my textbook. I don't have it on me).

Third, yes, that's why I said the first version of the Athanasian Creed. We do read about Athanasius arguing the doctrine of the Trinity. Though he did not pen the Creed exactly as written, most scholars feel that it is based off of a Creed written and espoused by Athanasius and the early Church.

In all of that study was the cross ever mentioned?
 
Nov 30, 2012
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In all of that study was the cross ever mentioned?
It being an academic class, no, not in class. After class, yes. Most of the students were Christian. We prayed with the Professor before the other students arrived to class and after class.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
It being an academic class, no, not in class. After class, yes. Most of the students were Christian. We prayed with the Professor before the other students arrived to class and after class.
I don't mean to come off as obtuse, but you studied nothing and gained nothing.