A BIBLICAL EXAMINATION OF CALVINISM

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Sep 9, 2018
2,244
1,021
113
66
Illinois
#1
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed” (Acts 13:48).

“What shall be shall be, whether it happens or not.”

We are going to get into a little strong meat, although I’m sure that it will give some folks indigestion. I want to talk a little bit about a teaching of fundamentalism. This doctrine is found in Bible-believing fundamentalism. This doctrine is found among those that do believe the King James version is the Word of God, just because you believe the King James version is the Word of God doesn’t make you exempt from teaching, nor does it make you exempt from false living. We don’t need to have any delusions about that.

The doctrine I would like to talk about is called Calvinism.

I’ll begin by presenting Calvinism like an old hard-shell Baptist might, showing why it is true. Then I’ll show why it is false. Calvinism is taught in all the seminaries. There is no way to get a higher education without running into it.

Let’s start at Ephesians 1:4

According as he [that’s God the Father] hath chosen us in him [that’s Christ] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love” (Ephesians 1:4).

Now here is how it is taught. That passage right there says that God the Father chose you in Christ before the foundation of the world. In Calvin’s system, that means this, you are already ‘in Christ’ before He even created the world . . . you are already saved, you are born saved, therefore you don’t need to be saved. You can see that you couldn’t go to hell if you tried.

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it” (Ephesians 5:25).

What does that mean? That means that when Christ died on the Cross, He gave Himself for His Church, which is His body. He died only for the saved elect, which were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. This is called in Calvinistic theology, “LIMITED ATONEMENT.”

It simply means that when Christ shed His blood on Calvary, there wasn’t enough to go around. The Blood only apply to the elect. Now hard-shelled Baptists will deny that, vehemently and vigorously, but it doesn’t make any difference—all hard-shelled Baptists believe in a Limited Atonement. John Calvin believed in a Limited Atonement, they all believe in a Limited Atonement.

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. . . he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors” (Isaiah 53:11, 12).

This is talking about the atonement, this is to prove that Christ’s Blood was only shed for the elect. That is, only those ‘chosen in Him.” He ‘justified many,” He “bare the sins of many.” In plain words, Christ didn’t die for everybody—just “many.” The many of course, a reference to the elect—not everybody.

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many” (Matthew 20:28).

Not everybody, just many. So, when Christ came and died on Calvary’s cross, He didn’t die for everybody—Christ came down and Christ shed His Blood just the elect. They were predestinated to go to heaven because they were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. You say, “What about the rest of them?” Well, they are predestinated to go to hell. A Calvinist will deny that, and say, “No, we don’t predestinate them to go to hell!” but he is lying.

If you have a decree of Election—you must also have a decree of Reprobation. The decree of Reprobation teaches that those He didn’t die for go to hell. And another reason they go to hell is that the Blood isn’t applied to them, and the reason the Blood was never applied to them is because it was never shed for them to start with. That’s the situation. They say, “That’s not the reason the Blood was never applied to them . . .” Well, that’s beside the point. The point is they don’t believe that Christ shed His Blood for unsaved people. Limited atonement is what they believe.

Now you can see in this situation that if you were born right you go to heaven, and if you were born wrong you go to hell—there’s nothing you can do about it.

In Ephesians 2 we see that if you are chosen in Christ to be saved before you are saved, and the Blood is shed for you, then your salvation is automatic. And if your salvation is automatic, then you have nothing to do with it. This doctrine is called TOTAL DEPRAVITY which means that you are unable to do anything to save yourself, that the whole operation from start to finish is God’s work and you have nothing to do with it.

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins” (Ephesians 2:1).

Which means what? It means that out here, in time, you were dead in trespasses and sins, and a dead man can do nothing to respond. Therefore, the Holy Spirit has to overcome this fellow, quicken him and give him a new birth before he can respond, because he’s dead—he’s totally depraved.

Now in that system, do you see what follows? If the Holy Spirit quickens that fellow, and He gives him life, then he repents. And then he believes on Christ. He could not repent until God quickened him, and he couldn’t believe until God quickened him. So you have a backwards salvation. The fellow is saved, then he repents. Then he believes, and he receives. That has some interesting overtones.

When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life” (Acts 11:18).

Here is proof that a man can not repent of himself. Here is proof that he has to be quickened before he can repent. If God doesn’t grant you repentance than a man can’t repent. So, repentance is a gift as well as the rest of it. Isn’t it amazing what you can prove with the Scriptures? The devil can quote Scripture.

In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth” (II Timothy 2:25).

So, if God doesn’t give you repentance, you can’t repent. So, what happens here—this unsaved fellow sitting out here and he is one of the elect, because He was chosen in Christ back at the beginning—the Holy Spirit quickens the fellow, gives Him the new birth, and that gives him repentance. So he repents, and he receives Christ.

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth” (Romans 9:18).

Pharaoh never had a chance.
 
Sep 9, 2018
2,244
1,021
113
66
Illinois
#2
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy” (Romans 9:16).

This is what is called UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION

You can’t will to receive Christ. So, the unsaved man cannot, by an act of the will, receive Jesus Christ. “It is not of him that willeth.” God will have mercy upon the elect because He chose him, and God will damn the unsaved because he didn’t choose Him. That is the setup. Those things, again, are called the decree of election and the decree of reprobation. All hard-shell Baptists and Calvinists believe just that.

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory” (Romans 9:20-23).

Now, let us read this passage the way a Calvinist reads it?

“Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel [GO TO HEAVEN], and another [TO GO TO HELL]? What if God, willing to shew his wrath [SEND HIM TO HELL], and to make his power known [SEND HIM TO HELL], endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath [WHICH HE MADE FOR THE PURPOSE OF PUTTING THEM IN HELL]: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared [TO GO TO HEAVEN]” (Romans 9:20-23).

There you go. God made some vessels to go to hell. There they go. God made some vessels to go to heaven. There they go. He shed His Blood for this crowd, He didn’t shed His Blood for that crowd.

Okay, that was UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION, which means that God elects without any purpose behind.

Now we will consider THE PRESERVATION OF THE SAINTS, which means that when a man is saved, he will ‘endure to the end.’ This is the one point that I agree with.

If you take IRRESTISTIBLE GRACE, there is no will—you are stuck with it.
If you take LIMITED ATONEMENT, you couldn’t have gotten saved any way—you are stuck with it.
If you take UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION, you have a thing where there is no foreknowledge.
If you take TOTAL DEPRAVITY, you can’t by an act of the will receive Christ.

Though I might agree with one point, I am in no way a Calvinist, neither am I an Arminian,
I am a Bible-believing Baptist, a Biblicist. Why would I want to be associated with Calvin at all?
John Calvin had Michael Servetus burned at the stake because he disagreed with him on the eternal generation of the Son—a theological point having to do with the Trinity.

As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep” (John 10:15).

Or, as the Calvinist would read this verse . . .

“As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for [NOT FOR THE WORLD] I lay down my life [JUST FOR THE ELECT]” (John 10:15).

And . . .

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd” (John 10:16).

Or . . .

“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold [UNSAVED PEOPLE-They are going to get saved later on]: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd” (John 10:16).

Now that’s the system. In their system, the unsaved man is a sheep, because potentially, he is going to be a sheep. Now that’s got problems. And I’ll show you what the problems are.

Now that’s the system. That is the Calvinistic setup. I am not a Calvinist.

John Calvin sprinkled babies.
John Calvin was Amillennial.
John Calvin believed in an unlimited atonement.
John Calvin had a fellow burned at the stake that disagreed with him.
 
Sep 9, 2018
2,244
1,021
113
66
Illinois
#3
I am not a Calvinist, and now I’ll show you why I am not a Calvinist.

Now I’m going to give you the 40 verses that they forgot to tell you about. There are always two sides.

I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee . . . And to carry the silver and gold, which the king and his counsellors have freely offered unto the God of Israel, whose habitation is in Jerusalem, And all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon, with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which is in Jerusalem” (Ezra 7:13, 15-16).

Some expressions that we use are not found in the Bible, but when you find a term that does appear in the Bible, you better go with it.

Free will is a Bible expression. You know who is exercising that free will in Ezra? Old Testament saints. You know how many Old Testament saints at that time were quickened by the Holy Spirit? None of them. You know how many were born again? None of them. How many were in the Body of Christ? None of them. How many were spiritually circumcised? None of them. You know how many were dead in trespasses and sins? ALL OF THEM.

That’s why these people keep trying to make you think, “Well, there saved the same way in the Old Testament as in the New Testament.” They’re trying to get all the elect of God chosen and unconditional. You are not going to do that. There is no new birth in the Old Testament, because the Seed hadn’t fallen in the ground and died to bring forth fruit.

Christ is the Seed in John 12 that falls on the ground—and when He comes up—He brings forth the fruit. And the fruit is you, you are born of Him. You are born of the Seed. Christ has no seed in the Old Testament, He is the ‘seed of the woman,’ born of a virgin. There is no Seed by which a man can be born again, till the Seed shows up. These people, back in the Old Testament, these saved and unsaved people. The one thing about them is all the same. They are all in Adam’s image (Genesis 5). Some of them are saved, but when they are saved—nothing happens to them.

- When you got saved you got adopted.
- When you got saved you were born again.
- When you got saved you got justified.

When you read your Bible, Abraham was not justified until he offered up Isaac. That was 17 YEARS AFTER HE WAS SAVED. He had righteousness imputed to him in Genesis 15 and wasn’t justified until Genesis 22.

When we get saved, we get justified RIGHT THERE!

Some say the state of the Old Testament saint was like that of the New Testament saint. Then how come they didn’t go to the same place? They didn’t go to the same place because they were not saved the same way.

I grant you that grace was there—I know my Bible too. Noah found grace in the eyes of the eyes of the Lord—I read my Bible too. I grant you grace is all the way through. I grant you before the law it is grace through faith. But you get under the Law, like we see in Ezra, you have a problem. But they have a FREE WILL. Calvin is wrong.

We’ll look at Exodus 35 . . .

The unregenerate person in the Old Testament has a free will.

Verse 21, “And they came, every one whose heart stirred him up,” I thought the heart was deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. You know what their heart set them up to do? To obey God. Their unregenerate, uncircumcised heart.

Verse 21, “. . . and every one whom his spirit made willing,” Whose spirit? The man’s spirit (small ‘s’), not a ‘dead’ spirit. When a man is born again, is spirit is born again, right? This OT fellow was not born again, but his spirit set him up to do right.

Verse 21, “. . . and they brought the LORD'S offering.”

Verse 22, “And they came, both men and women, as many as were willing hearted . . .”

Verse 25, “And all the women that were wise hearted did spin with their hands . . .”

Verse 29, “The children of Israel brought a willing offering unto the LORD, every man and woman, whose [unregenerate, totally depraved] heart [deceitful above all things] made them willing to bring all . . .” Somebody doesn’t know what they are talking about.

In the Old Testament, that old unregenerate heart could respond toward God or reject God—it was an act of the will. I’m not saying you can get saved by an act of works, I’m saying your will has something to do with your salvation.

Okay, back to Romans 9:18 . . .

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth” (Romans 9:18).

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy” (Romans 9:16).

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated” (Romans 9:13).

Listen, brethren, the statement was that you can’t by an act of will make God have mercy on you, that’s the statement. There isn’t nothing there about receiving Christ. When you receive Christ you receive mercy, yea, but that is how God set it up. God said I’ll have mercy on whom I’ll have mercy, but God, who are you having mercy on? The says He’ll have mercy on those that trust My Son. That’s God’s will. God has determined the means by which He is going to give you mercy.

So, it is not of him that willeth. You can’t say, “God, have mercy on m,” and then go an pay no attention to Him. That’s one of the great doctrines of this age, that if a man just asks God to have mercy on him, He’ll have mercy upon him.

He’ll have mercy on you at the Cross, and outside of there is no mercy.

For God so loved the world, that he gave [PAST TENSE] his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him [THERE’S NO MERCY OUTSIDE OF RIGHT THERE, BROTHER]. should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins” (I John 4:10).

The mercy is right there, and if you don’t come there—your will is not worth a hill of beans—because God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. And if you won’t trust Christ—there is no mercy.

Let’s see about hardened Old Pharaoh . . . whom he really hardeneth? Now long before God ever touches this bird, the Lord says how he is going to react before I even touch him, because God has foreknowledge—and election is conditioned on foreknowledge—the election is conditioned upon what God knows is going to take place.

And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand” (Exodus 3:19).

God says that before Moses even goes down there. The Lord says, “I know what that bird will do.” And what does he do?

And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go” (Exodus 8:32).

This is one of the verses that the old Calvinists just pretend is not in the Bible. Well, that time the Lord didn’t harden his heart, Pharaoh hardened it himself. And Pharaoh had done it before, this wasn’t the first time (at this time ALSO), It isn’t God unilaterally hardening a fellow—it’s God hardening a fellow that hardened himself. Whom He will He hardeneth, He hardened Pharaoh, why? the old boy hardened himself.

How did he harden himself? Scripture with Scripture, that is, Scripture interprets Scripture

But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin” (Hebrews 3:13).

Why does God harden a fellow? Because of sin. How do we know?

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God” (Hebrews 3:12).

God hardens whom He will. Sure, that’s true. Who does He will to harden? –those that depart from Him, those that don’t believe on Him, those that are living like the devil—those are who He hardens. There’s a reason for Him hardening Pharaoh—it’s sin! Old Calvin just didn’t like to talk about that. You see, man’s free will and man’s acts operate right even with God’s sovereignty.
 
Sep 9, 2018
2,244
1,021
113
66
Illinois
#4
These theological philosophers think they can figure this stuff out. You can’t figure this stuff out. “We know the eternal decrees of God—He decreed this and He decreed that . . .” Listen, God Almighty can adjust Himself to anybody, anytime, anyplace, anywhere. You make any move you want to, He’ll adjust Himself. God Almighty can leave you completely to your free will every day of your life, and never contradict Himself once, and still work out His plans. That stupid Calvin thought that it all had to be iron-clad and iron-bound or nothing would work.

Here's Calvin . . .

God looked down through the ages and said, “What’s going to happen?” And God looked down there and said, “I know what I’ll do! I’ll put that many people in heaven, and that many in hell. There! Now I know what is going to happen!”

That’s it! That’s predestination and then foreknowledge, except that foreknowledge means “before,” except to a Greek scholar. They say that foreknowledge doesn’t mean foreknowledge at all, it means ‘a fixed decree.” Huh?

Now here, in this Bible, God looks down here and in any one second of time he comprehends every possibility at one glance and taking into account every possibility He fixes certain points and lets all the rest of it go.

Stupid hard-shell Baptists. Two of them came out of the church one wintry day and slipped on the ice and fell down. One of them got up and said, “That God that’s over with!” Now, that’s real predestination. You get this thing going where everything that happens to you was foreordained before the foundation of the world—you know what you turn into to? You turn into an egomaniac, because you think that God has fixed all this stuff just for you. Hey man, you are just not that important.

Dr. Bob Jones Sr. used to say about these Calvinists. He said, “You know what you are like? If your concept of God is God way back in eternity past and looking down through the corridors of time with his telescope, and He sees a speck out there in the distance, and He adjusts His telescope and comes in on it—and it gets bigger—and He sees what it is. You know what it is? It’s Me! No, you just ain’t that big.

Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!” (Luke 17:1).

Now you look at that verse a minute.

“. . . It is impossible but that offences will come . . .” Somebody has to murder, it’s predestinated. Somebody has to commit adultery, it’s predestinated. Somebody has to steal or to murder, it is predestinated. Somebody has to commit the abortion--kidnapping, it’s predestinated. Somebody has to sell out Christ—somebody has to crucify Christ, it’s predestinated. “. . . but woe unto him, through whom they come! . . .”

See that? Free will--don’t let it be you. You see what’s happening in that verse? You have the sovereignty of God running just like that, and you have the free will of man running right parallel to it and they never touch one time. God Almighty will leave your free will inviolate, He’ll never cross your free will even one time in your life. That is how God made you. He’ll run right along with it. You won’t out-trick Him. When you finish messing around, you’ll find that you ran right alongside Him all the way—and He’ll still get done what He wants to get done.

A fellow said one time, he said, “This thing about the free will of man and the sovereignty of God is like looking at a railroad track. You look down and it looks like it is about four feet across, and then on down it looks like they are three feet apart—and as you look on down about a mile they look like they come together. You could swear they come together. But you could walk that railroad track until you die of old age, and they’ll never touch.” It’s a lot like the sovereignty of God and the free will of man—and if you want to leave your little choo-choo on the rail—you better leave both the rails there.

Let’s see about this ‘will’ bit.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God” (John 1:12-13).

The new birth is not of the will . . .not of your own, nor of your parents, but of God. No will of the flesh, no will of the man. Then the new birth is by the will of God, so, they do have a point. But they stole from you. They gave you verse 13, but they didn’t give you verse 12. God doesn’t will the new birth for a fellow until he does what? Receives Christ! They lied to you. They made you think that the new birth is the equivalent of receiving Christ. The new birth is what happens to you when you receive Christ. You got to get that thing right. You can’t will the new birth before you are saved or after you are saved—but you can will to receive Christ. And when you do, God gives you the new birth. Simple isn’t it?

They’ll lie to you like a dog. They give you half-truth all the time, and a half-truth is still a lie.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!” (Matthew 23:37).

“. . . how often would I . . .” There’s the WILL of God!
“. . . ye would not!” There’s the FREE WILL of man!

The Lord is . . . not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” (II Peter 3:9).

When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life” (Acts 11:18).

You see, in that verse there, you didn’t quite catch it about granting repentance to the Gentiles? When you read that thing, you thought it was about granting repentance to the elect, but it didn’t say to the elect, it said “to the Gentiles.” Do you know what that means? That means any Gentile can repent. Why? Because God granted repentance to the Gentiles. It’s funny how that thing slips in there, see can’t you see it? Any Gentile in this town can be saved.

Here’s a good one for you . . .

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart . . .”

In thy mouth—unsaved, dead trespassing sinner—in thy mouth. In thy heart—the unsaved man has the word of salvation in his mouth and in his heart! All he has to do is confess—"if thou shalt confess with thy mouth . . . and believe in thine heart . . . thou shalt be saved.”

That’s written to the Romans—to Gentiles! There ain’t a Gentile in all the earth that can’t be saved—JUST LIKE THAT! He’s been “granted repentance,” he has enough faith to be saved, and it’s right in his mouth, and in his heart. All he’s got to do is use it. He just won’t use it. If you go to hell, you damn yourself, friend.

They’ll give you half the truth, they won’t give you all the truth. The biggest lie you ever heard in your life is a half-truth.
 
Sep 9, 2018
2,244
1,021
113
66
Illinois
#5
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth” (I Timothy 2:3-4).

Who will”—There’s the will of God.
Who will have all men to be saved” – Not just the elect.
“. . . all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth” – Do you know what the ‘all men” is in that context? Any unsaved man on the face of this earth.

Some believe that John Calvin was sickly all his life, and believe that his bodily infirmities affected his theology. They assume that Calvin could not stand the idea that all men could be saved, weak and strong, that somehow it made God weak. I just throw that out there. Nietzsche was also sick and weakly all his life and got the idea that the greatest virtue was strength and power, because he had neither. He erected the superstructure of Hitler’s theology—superman. Too Calvin, it seems the greatest crime was being weak. So, to him, God had to have His way all the time and man was powerless to resist it.

Calvin’s thinking was, if God wanted all men to be saved—and some of them weren’t—that would defeat God’s purpose. And, since God’s purpose could not be defeated, the only answer was that He must have wanted to ban this bunch that didn’t get saved, otherwise man would overrule God. It was pretty much he had a good motive for setting up his thinking in that he wanted to give God the glory and make God sovereign. But that slanders God.

That makes God to be unholy. That makes God condemn a man that doesn’t need condemnation. At least John Wesley emphasized the holiness of God. I agree that the greatest thing about God is His holiness.

If God willed for men to be saved and they were not saved that was man opposing God’s will—Calvin wouldn’t stand for that. Calvin taught that God would have His own will no matter what man wills.

How many times have we pitted out will against God—and had my way instead of His way. Hasn’t it happened to you?

The trouble with these hyper-Calvinists is that they are so pious and sanctified. You can tell that by listening to them talk. “Oh, beloved of God, yes, the good lord (pronounced Lawd), Oh Thou most sovereign grace, oh Your great remarkable sovereign grace, when I am but a poor sinner plea to the Lawd, and the Lawd has mercy upon my undeserving soul. . .” NOBODY TALKS THAT WAY NATURALLY! Sounds more like an actor.

Lester Roloff said, “America is an insane asylum run by the inmates.” He was an a Calvinist.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time” (I Timothy 2:5-6).

Watch it! Did He give Himself for ‘all’ or for ‘many?’—FOR ALL. How come he gave you the one in Matthew, instead of I Timothy? You say, why did he say ‘many’ in one place? Cuz’ ‘all’ is ‘many’ isn’t it? Now many may not be all, but all is many, isn’t it?

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren” (Romans 8:29).

Now there are two times that word ‘predestinate’ shows up in that book, and NEITHER time is it a reference to salvation. NOT ONE TIME!

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be SAVED”, RIGHT? NO!!! “to be conformed to the image of his Son.” THAT DOESN’T TAKE PLACE UNTIL AFTER YOU RECEIVE CHRIST.

Okay, let’s get back to where we started, and this time we’ll get it right.

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will” (Ephesians 1:4-5).

The word ‘predestination’ is NEVER used in reference to one’s salvation. NOT A TIME!

We are predestinated unto the adoption. You see, Calvin mistook ‘ADOPTION’ for ‘SALVATION.’ That isn’t salvation, that is what happens to you when you get saved. You are adopted as a child of God. That didn’t happen in the Old Testament. How do we know it didn’t happen in the Old Testament? Paul told us in Galatians that that sinner was under a tutor until the time appointed of the Father, and after the Lord came, and after the Lord came he received the adoption. That’s a New Testament operation. Calvin just couldn’t get his Bible right.

Verse 4 - “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.”

Oh, I see.

I didn’t say according as He chose us WHEN we were in Him, it says He chose us in Him (IN CHRIST) before the foundation of the world.

Well, Calvin didn’t have that one right. He had you in Christ back then. The verse didn’t say that. The verse said God chose you ‘in Christ’. When were you ‘in Christ’? When you received Him. If you were in Christ before the foundation of the world, when Adam showed up, where were you? You were in Adam. “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

Do you mean to tell me that you were in Christ, and then out of Christ, and then got into Adam, and then fell out of Adam, and got back into Christ? That is nonsense! God chose you when? When you go in Christ. When did you get in Christ? When He put you in. When did He put you in? WHEN YOU RECEIVED CHRIST! Is there anything difficult about this? Some just want to make it hard.

Did you know that’s why all these hyper-Calvinists have such a hard time with salvation? “Oh yes, if you feel God’s striving in your heart, then you know that you’ve been quickened by the Holy Spirit, and you wouldn’t repent and feel sorry for your sins, and seal your soul from hell, unless God had already done a work in your heart. So, you should keep on, to strive to know Christ fully, knowing that if you know Christ fully, you are one of the elect. Don’t give up, continue to mourn and pray before God, and repent.”

What’s he saying?

He’s saying, “Work you way to heaven.”

Hyper-Calvinism leads to a Hyper-Arminianism. He doesn’t know if he is even saved right now.

Were you a sheep before you were saved? Before you were saved, you were dead, you were a child of wrath, you were a child of disobedience, you were alone, you were in the world, without hope, without God, without Christ—and the Lord didn’t even know who you were.

But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?” (Galatians 4:9).

Before you were saved you were just a blank cipher, you were just a dead sinner. And, God had mercy upon you and got you through scrape after scrape after scrape, not because He knew you personally like you were a friend of His, but just because God is merciful to fools and drunkards. He’ll say to a bunch of people, “Depart from me, I never knew you!”

The one’s He knows are the ones that are in Him, and before you were in Him you were nothing more than a Gentile dog.
 
Sep 9, 2018
2,244
1,021
113
66
Illinois
#6
All right let’s see about that LIMITED ATONEMENT . . .

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction” (II Peter 2:1).

even denying the Lord that bought them.” Hmmm? Do you know what bought means? Sure, it means God purchases false teachers and false prophets. Is Peter a heretic? These people bringing in damnable heresies are of the elect, right? These were purchased with God’s blood? Right? Well, Right? What do you Calvinists say about his one?

Limited atonement, right . . . Do you know what Charles Wesley, the hymn writer said about Calvinism? This is good!

“Oh Calvinist theology,
Oh horrible decree,
Worthy of the place from which it came,
Forgive their hellish blasphemy,
That they charge to the Lamb.”

Calvin didn’t know what he was talking about.

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” (Hebrews 10:29).

That fellow is stepping under foot the Blood of Christ, and it was shed to sanctify him. There is no limited atonement to it.

According to Calvin, only the elect can repent, because God only grants repentance to the elect. And if you are not one of the elect, you can’t repent. Wouldn’t preachers have a terrible time of it is Calvin had told the truth? They stand up Sunday after Sunday exhorting man to “Repent!”, and a hundred of them can’t even do it! They say “Believe!” and fifty of them couldn’t believe if they tried. Isn’t that something?

They are dead! So, why send them to hell then? If a guy is dead and can’t receive Christ, why do you hold him responsible for rejecting Christ? Crazy, cock-eyed system! A dead fellow can do nothing, but he is held responsible for rejecting Christ. How can you do that, and not hold him responsible for accepting Christ. If a fellow can accept, then he can reject. You can’t send a man to hell if he couldn’t accept? Well, that’s Calvinism’s peculiar kind of thinking.

Let’s see if they could have repented . . .

Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes” (Matthew 11:21).

they would have repented” – They didn’t repent. The ones that went to prison/hell would have repented if they had seen what Chorazin and Bethsaida had seen. That means they could have repented because Christ said they WOULD have repented. THEREFORE THE NON-ELECT CAN REPENT.

Have you ever heard a Calvinist say, “No man can come to me except the father draw him.” That’s a good one.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me” (John 12:32).

Anybody can come. Christ’s crucifixion draws them. When Christ said in John 6, “No man can come to me except the father draw him,” He was talking on earth—talking to the disciples. Now here He says, “When I am lifted up, I’ll draw all of them.”

That isn’t all. Do you know what the bride said back there in the Song of Solomon? She says, “Draw me, we will run after thee” (Song of Solomon 1:4).

What can be more silly than a Calvinist sitting around saying, “I just don’t feel drawn, I just ain’t drawn. I got to be drawn, If the Holy Spirit don’t draw me . . .”

Hey, son, get down on your face before God and ask Him to draw you! You see where the will comes in? The fellow won’t do it!

Get on you knees right there and say, “Now Lord, You said I couldn’t come unless you draw me. In the name of Jesus Christ, draw me!”

He won’t pray that though. You know why? . . . SIN . . .

When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life” (Acts 11:18).

Acts 13:48 is a huge verse in Calvinism according to the Trinitarian Bible Society of London, England, which is a hard-shell, 5-point TULIP, hyper-dispensational, Bullingerite Calvin group. Their first president was good old Ethelbert Bullinger himself.

Their main verse for proving Calvinism is this verse . . .

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed” (Acts 13:48).

So, the one’s that weren’t ordained to eternal life couldn’t believe. See how simple that is? I mean, if you ordained to eternal life—you believe, if you are not ordained to eternal life—you don’t. See how logical that thing sounds?

Now what about that? Look at verse 42, those are Gentiles, 47 those are Gentiles, 48 those are Gentiles. Who are these Gentiles? Those are Gentiles that are connected with the Jewish synagogue.

And Paul gets up to preach to that bunch in Acts 13, and he says in 16 . . .

“Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience” (Acts 13:16).

Men of Israel” . . . those are Jews.
ye that fear God” . . . those are Gentiles.

THE ONE PLACE THESE FELLOWS PICKED TO PROVE CALVINISM WAS A WORKS PASSAGE. THE ONE PLACE THEY PICKED. THE ONE PLACE THEY PICKED ABOUT ORDAINED TO ETERNAL LIFE WAS A WORKS PASSAGE.

He is talking to Jews and Gentiles that had not yet heard the Gospel. Let’s see what this ordination is . . .

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile” (Romans 2:5-10).

Patient continuance” . . . – works
well doing” . . . – works
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness” . . . – works
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good” . . . – worketh, worketh, worketh, WORKETH! WORKETH! WORKETH!

Do you know what you have in Acts chapter 13? You have a bunch of Gentiles that have been doing good works, and seeking immortality and eternal life—and doing well, and seeking God, and trying to find God—and because of that they are ordained to eternal life, and get it when Paul shows up. That’s what you got right there.

And their ordination to eternal life in that passage was based on works.

It had to do with the fact that in Romans we are told that if a Gentile follows his conscience it will take him to God, and if the Jew follows the Law, it’ll take him to God.

That’s a dispensational shock, but as Gentiles in the Old Testament waiting for the truth, and seeking for the truth—so when the truth shows up—they accept it. You know who the outstanding character that illustrates that in the New Testament is? It is Cornelius, in Acts 10. A certain man, a just man, with a good report who gave alms and prayed to God always. An angel said, “Go get Simon Peter, who shall tell thee words whereby thou and thy house shall be saved.” Why? Works . . . works . . . works . . . works . . . works . . . works . . .. works . . . works!

That fellow isn’t saved by works—he’s saved by grace through faith! But he’s ordained to it if he is coming around the right way.

Now, think about that!

The only verse that the Trinitarian Bible Society could find which categorically proves the Calvinist view just happens to be an Arminian passage.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,423
3,110
113
#7
This is talking about the atonement, this is to prove that Christ’s Blood was only shed for the elect. That is, only those ‘chosen in Him.” He ‘justified many,” He “bare the sins of many.” In plain words, Christ didn’t die for everybody—just “many.” The many of course, a reference to the elect—not everybody.
This is how Christians get into trouble. They take some verses to develop a doctrine but fail to take ALL verses into account. Scripture never contradicts itself, therefore it is imperative that the whole counsel of God be presented.

The "many" can certainly apply to the ones who are ACTUALLY saved by grace, but the ALLs and the WHOSOEVERs apply to the whole world -- all of humanity. Therefore we need to be clear that while Christ died for THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD, only those who obey the Gospel -- the obedience of faith -- are saved.

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world*. (John 1:29)

JOHN 3
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world*, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world* to condemn the world*; but that the world* through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

*Strong's Concordance
kosmos: order, the world
Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Definition: order, the world
Usage: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment
.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. (1 Tim 2:5,6)

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men... (Tit 2:11)

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Heb 2:9)

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Pet 3:9)
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also forthe sins of the whole world.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17)

Calvinism is simply a DISTORTION of the true Gospel. Which makes it a false Gospel. And once it can be shown from Scripture (as above) that limited atonement is FALSE, the whole house of cards comes tumbling down. But the sad truth is that even after these Scriptures have been presented, Calvinists fail to repent and forsake their false beliefs. Indeed they double down and attempt to distort what God has shown plainly. And that is a sin.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
777
113
#8
First, I think you should decide if you want to debunk Jean Calvin or calvinism. Even it sounds similar, its not the same thing.

Second, you should quote Jean Calvin, if you want to debunk his words, not just tell us what you think he thought.

Third, you should quote creeds or catechisms of calvinism to debunk it, not just tell us what you think it says.
 
Sep 9, 2018
2,244
1,021
113
66
Illinois
#9
This is how Christians get into trouble. They take some verses to develop a doctrine but fail to take ALL verses into account. Scripture never contradicts itself, therefore it is imperative that the whole counsel of God be presented.

The "many" can certainly apply to the ones who are ACTUALLY saved by grace, but the ALLs and the WHOSOEVERs apply to the whole world -- all of humanity. Therefore we need to be clear that while Christ died for THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD, only those who obey the Gospel -- the obedience of faith -- are saved.

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world*. (John 1:29)

JOHN 3
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world*, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world* to condemn the world*; but that the world* through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

*Strong's Concordance
kosmos: order, the world
Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Definition: order, the world
Usage: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment
.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. (1 Tim 2:5,6)

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men... (Tit 2:11)

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Heb 2:9)

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Pet 3:9)
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also forthe sins of the whole world.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17)

Calvinism is simply a DISTORTION of the true Gospel. Which makes it a false Gospel. And once it can be shown from Scripture (as above) that limited atonement is FALSE, the whole house of cards comes tumbling down. But the sad truth is that even after these Scriptures have been presented, Calvinists fail to repent and forsake their false beliefs. Indeed they double down and attempt to distort what God has shown plainly. And that is a sin.
With so many clear verses of Scripture offering a universal call to salvation one has to wonder what possesses Calvinists to cling to this man made doctrine.
 
Sep 9, 2018
2,244
1,021
113
66
Illinois
#10
First, I think you should decide if you want to debunk Jean Calvin or calvinism. Even it sounds similar, its not the same thing.

Second, you should quote Jean Calvin, if you want to debunk his words, not just tell us what you think he thought.

Third, you should quote creeds or catechisms of calvinism to debunk it, not just tell us what you think it says.
Do it need to study joe smith to debunk Mormon?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
6,782
684
113
#11
With so many clear verses of Scripture offering a universal call to salvation one has to wonder what possesses Calvinists to cling to this man made doctrine.
Somehow, the Calvinist was placed in Christ before the foundation of the world, fell out of Christ at the fall of Adam, and were placed back into Christ upon belief in the gospel. I'm in...I'm out...I'm back in!
 
Sep 9, 2018
2,244
1,021
113
66
Illinois
#12
Somehow, the Calvinist was placed in Christ before the foundation of the world, fell out of Christ at the fall of Adam, and were placed back into Christ upon belief in the gospel. I'm in...I'm out...I'm back in!
And don’t forget that he got clean and then took a bath, but got dirty again before he could get out of the tub!
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
6,782
684
113
#13
John Calvin was quoted saying, that the fall of Adam and Eve with all it's consequences was ordained by the admiral counsel of God.

John Calvin said that God is the author of sin. Every rape, murder, every child that is molested, every elderly person that is beaten, is the admirable counsel of God in action. You can have that God if you want. That's not the God of the Scriptures.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
777
113
#15
Somehow, the Calvinist was placed in Christ before the foundation of the world, fell out of Christ at the fall of Adam, and were placed back into Christ upon belief in the gospel. I'm in...I'm out...I'm back in!
I was a calvinist for 15 years, I read the Institutes of Calvin, i read the canons of Dort, I read the Heidelberg catechism and Helvetic confession, I attended lutheran church, I listened to many sermons of Piper, McArthur etc, but I have NEVER heard something like this.

Therefore in my opinion, you both misrepresent calvinism or stretch some words to absurdity.

What, for example, dont you agree with in Second Helvetic Confession and why? It would be more effective discussion than this.
 
Sep 9, 2018
2,244
1,021
113
66
Illinois
#16
John Calvin was quoted saying, that the fall of Adam and Eve with all it's consequences was ordained by the admiral counsel of God.

John Calvin said that God is the author of sin. Every rape, murder, every child that is molested, every elderly person that is beaten, is the admirable counsel of God in action. You can have that God if you want. That's not the God of the Scriptures.
It's enough that casting men into hell will be according to his good pleasure . . . because they forgot to read that He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. C-O-N-T-R-A-D-I-C-T-I-0-N!
 
Sep 9, 2018
2,244
1,021
113
66
Illinois
#17
If you want to debunk Joe Smith' teachings, you should know and quote them.
No, I have a Bible. The Bible is not a counterfeit (well, some of them are) . . .

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them" (Isaiah 8:20).
 
Sep 9, 2018
2,244
1,021
113
66
Illinois
#18
I was a calvinist for 15 years, I read the Institutes of Calvin, i read the canons of Dort, I read the Heidelberg catechism and Helvetic confession, I attended lutheran church, I listened to many sermons of Piper, McArthur etc, but I have NEVER heard something like this.

Therefore in my opinion, you both misrepresent calvinism or stretch some words to absurdity.

What, for example, dont you agree with in Second Helvetic Confession and why? It would be more effective discussion than this.
Pity, you should have spent all that time reading the Word of God, then you to would be able to judge any man's words against the truth.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
777
113
#19
No, I have a Bible. The Bible is not a counterfeit (well, some of them are) . . .

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them" (Isaiah 8:20).
You do not understand. If you want to debunk me, you must quote me and know what I am saying.

You cannot just invent your ideas and say "its what you say, its what you think". I wonder that you cant grasp this simple logic.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
777
113
#20
Pity, you should have spent all that time reading the Word of God, then you to would be able to judge any man's words against the truth.
I spent much time not just reading, but also learning and studying the Bible and many other writings of the church.