A Distinction Between Tongues

[presidente]

You must understand the the present grace dispensation we are living in now, was a mystery hidden in God until the ascended Christ reveal to Paul.

It was not to be found in the OT anywhere. So naturally Peter and the others were not aware of it during Acts 2.

Romans 16:

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

 

[Guojing]

Romans 16:

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Amen, Paul calls this mystery "my gospel", not just once but three times. None of the other 12 could claim the same thing because their gospel was known in the OT, as the gospel of the kingdom.

Its only in the BUT NOW, meaning the salvation of Paul, that the mystery is finally unveiled through Paul.

 

[Dave-L]

Hey All Churches would not be doing it. Well what has never changed is what happen when Christ went into this town and all He could do was lay hands on a few and teach because of doubt. And its written if we doubt let not that man think he will get anything from God. There is "whosoever" written in His word. That power that name HE gave us. Peter and John said they didn't have any silver or gold but what they did have they gave and said IN JESUS NAME. Ever notice they never prayed....never asked GOD or JESUS to do anything. It was already done. They said.. why look at us as if we did this under out own power. Its FAITH in that name. As Christ also said.. these signs SHALL follow them that believe.

See miracles happen and from Him using me. Out side of Spokane in a little Church me and friend.. I asked him about that woman up front. Well she was crying screaming why? He said "see all these people here?" I said yes. He said "most of them came with her. She was blind". A not any more. That preacher that came for the week just said in JESUS NAME.

And go to some 3rd world nation where they believe in all kinds of witchcraft and voodoo. You will see so many miracles. See faith works BOTH ways.

The signs and wonders of the Apostles ended in the epistles with Paul's friends sick and on medicine. But the prayer of faith still heals the sick. People confuse this claiming the gifts are still here.

 

[Dave-L]

Show me where the scriptures say that signs and wonders were __only__ for the apostles? And why do they occur in contexts where we do not find the twelve apostles or Paul (or Barnabas, etc.)?

What about this verse?

Exodus 7:3
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.


Why did Stephen and Philip do them?

You just repeat invented doctrine that contradicts scripture. We show you that you contradict scripture, and you repeat it again.

“How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?” Hebrews 2:3–4 (KJV 1900)

 

[notuptome]

First of all, there is nothing in that passage about signs and wonders ceasing. It is strange that you would assume that since the topic is not even discussed in that passage. The passage should be interpreted consistent with I Corinthians 1:7 So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Yet three gifts end with the completion of the NT scriptures

Paul also associated being perfect with his own resurrection in Philippians and Paul's understanding when he wrote I Corinthians will be like a child's in comparison to his understanding after the perfect comes, according to I Corinthians 13.

What? You really are far from what God is saying in 1 Cor 13. Well that's what you get when you endeavor to make the scripture say something it doesn't.

Focus on Christ and tongues will seem like just so much less.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[presidente]

“How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?” Hebrews 2:3–4 (KJV 1900)

And there is no evidence at all for cessationism or that miracles were limited to them that heard the Lord in these verses.

Matthew shows us that up to 9013 Jews plus women and children are fish (5000+4000 +12 apostles+the Lord) ate fish.

I could use your reasoning to argue that no Gentiles ate fish. That is akin to your line of reasoning here.

 

[presidente]

Amen, Paul calls this mystery "my gospel", not just once but three times. None of the other 12 could claim the same thing because their gospel was known in the OT, as the gospel of the kingdom.

Paul said if anyone preach another gospel besides what he preached to the Galatians, let him be accursed. He was not cursing the twelve apostles. Of course the gospel was his gospel. Consider what gospel means? It is a message of good news. 'My gospel' means the gospel I preach.

Look at Ephesians 3
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Not only was the mystery made known to the apostles (plural) but also to prophets. So it wasn't just exclusively for Paul.

Are you one of those hyperdispensationalists who does not believe in water baptism?




Its only in the BUT NOW, meaning the salvation of Paul, that the mystery is finally unveiled through Paul.[/QUOTE]

 

[presidente]

What? You really are far from what God is saying in 1 Cor 13. Well that's what you get when you endeavor to make the scripture say something it doesn't.

You are the one doing that with your 'plug and play' approach where you plug in the idea you want to be there in I Corinthians 13, without it connecting to the actual arguments and themes in the book. Then you have prophesying ceasing, but starting up again arbitrarily in the book of Revelation.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Tongues is one of the manners of prophecy .Without tongues/prophecy Christ spoke not. If we make it more than prophecy . God with stammering lips (mocking lips ) mock those who mock prophecy . he relates it to those who fall backward slain in the Spirit choosing the traditions of men above that which is written. Once the law of tongues (Isaiah 28) is established the rest of the doctrine falls into place.

Tongues a sign against those who do not believe prophecy . No sign needed for those who do believe. The unseen sign is they are believers that declare prophecy the tongue of God our new tongue, The gospel the power of life and death

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.1 Corinthians 14:22-23

nobody takes you seriously unless you manage to get things straight by accident

 

[garee]

Yes the signs and wonders were to convince the Jews that Paul was a legitimate apostle, equal to the other 12, and his new gospel of grace was similarly authenticated by God. Recall Acts 15:12

12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

Signs and wonders were critical in the decision at the end of Acts 15, that the gospel of the uncircumcision, preached to the gentiles, was as legitimate as the gospel of the circumcision.

There is no positive reinforcement in the bible that informs us to seek after a "signs and wonders gospel"l .Rather than seeking after "prophecy" the tongue of God.

Scripture proves scripture. One author the Holy Spirit of Christ. Paul has nothing to do with our salvation. He was not crucified for the wage of sin.

Matthew 12:39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Jesus says it an evil froward generation. . no faith coming from the word of God with those who walk after what the eyes see, that seeks after a sign. And yet you promote it? Why other than the lust of the eye? ?

According to the law of signs .Signs are for those who rebel .Prophecy the tongue of God for those who do walk by faith .

Sings do not prove apostles are apostles. Prophecy proves Gods word is from God.

You would be changing the meaning of the word "apostle" which simply means "sent one" many have assigned new meaning to that word. Taking away the integrity of the whole . All believer that offer the gospel are considered apostles. Again it does not prove who they are it proves who God is by the word of God that works in them . They are not words attributed to the apostles.

When the noble Bereans heard the words that came from the father putting them on the lips of Paul . In the same way he put his words on the lips of Balaam Ass to show us he is not served with human hands, That work of God stopped the madness of the false prophet Balaam He moved those noble ones who did hear the words he put on pail's lips it to search the scriptures to see if it is so.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Those who do seek after a signs and wonders gospel make Jesus into a circus seal. They say ...perform and miracle we can see and then we will believe . we refuse to walk by faith, as it is written .No means for self-edification there.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

I would do more investigating before trying to sell goods that Jesus says a for evil genraration to seeks after. The things seen .

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

 

[garee]

nobody takes you seriously unless you manage to get things straight by accident

I sure would not take you serious brother. Why are you so full of anger? Are you God's weapon of wrath?

There are no accidents when a person does rightly divide. Its how we can seek His approval and not yours. Its not our faith we are defending. He does the defending and supplies the armor.

Did you have a question or just letting off steam?

 

[presidente]

Yes the signs and wonders were to convince the Jews that Paul was a legitimate apostle, equal to the other 12, and his new gospel of grace was similarly authenticated by God. Recall Acts 15:12

12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

Signs and wonders were critical in the decision at the end of Acts 15, that the gospel of the uncircumcision, preached to the gentiles, was as legitimate as the gospel of the circumcision.

If Peter preached the Gospel to the Jews and Paul preached it to the Gentiles, that doesn't mean there were two gospels.

You should read the opening of the epistle to see what Paul thinks about other gospels.

Galatians 1

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Paul wasn't saying Peter was preaching another Gospel and then cursing him. And Peter pointed out in Acts 15:7, "God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.". And in Acts 9, we read that Ananias heard the Lord speak the following about Paul's calling. "15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: " Their calling wasn't exclusive and their gospels were not different or contradictory.

See also his comments in Romans 10.
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

and he calls their preaching 'gospel' in this chapter.
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

You really have to repent and prioritize the word of God over the dispensationalism. The hyperdispensational stuff can be damaging. Look at the warning in Galatians 1. Do you really want to advocate for two gospels considering that?

 

[presidente]

Amen, Paul calls this mystery "my gospel", not just once but three times. None of the other 12 could claim the same thing because their gospel was known in the OT, as the gospel of the kingdom.

Its only in the BUT NOW, meaning the salvation of Paul, that the mystery is finally unveiled through Paul.

In Ephesians 3, the mystery was revealed to apostles and prophets.

So not only Paul, and not only apostles, but also prophets, and we don't even have those prophets exact words or sayings except for a quote from Agabus and Silas coauthoring epistles, though he was apparently included in 'apostles of Christ' also in Thessalonians.

 

[notuptome]

You are the one doing that with your 'plug and play' approach where you plug in the idea you want to be there in I Corinthians 13, without it connecting to the actual arguments and themes in the book. Then you have prophesying ceasing, but starting up again arbitrarily in the book of Revelation.

That's because you must understand and account for the latter rain in Joel in order to get the real picture God is painting.

For the cause of Chriost
Roger

 

[presidente]

That's because you must understand and account for the latter rain in Joel in order to get the real picture God is painting.

For the cause of Chriost
Roger

In your system of interpretation, can you show me a verse that shows when the latter rain starts?

 

[garee]

Yet three gifts end with the completion of the NT scriptures

What? You really are far from what God is saying in 1 Cor 13. Well that's what you get when you endeavor to make the scripture say something it doesn't.

Focus on Christ and tongues will seem like just so much less.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I would offer. The unseen spirutl gifts do not end. Just the quantity now that we have the perfect. Ending with a warning not to add or subtract .Sealed it with 7 seals

God is still brining prophecy as it is written. . . in the tongues of all the nations of the world. A translation is available in most languages.

There are no laws missing from the whole or now perfect law by which we could know him more adequately as he works in us, to both will and perform His good pleasure .

The standard is still remains the same, as it is written. . . with it representing the one source of unseen faith, the hidden glory of God. Called the "hidden manna" in the last chapter of the "book of law". . . book of prophecy. . the bible.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. Revelation 2:17

Tongues is prophecy it cannot be divided from itself.. It is the divider. The distributer. The tongue of God's approval.

Acts 2 (ERV) When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a noise came from heaven. It sounded like a strong wind blowing. This noise filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw something that looked like flames of fire. The flames were separated and stood over each person there. They were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they began to speak different languages. The Holy Spirit was giving them the power to do this.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

 

[Wansvic]

that mark passage you quoted was part of the great commission, which was meant for the disciples to preach the gospel of the kingdom to Israel.

So I see it as not directed to us now, similar to how no one will build an ark now when one reads about how God commands Noah to build one

So it’s not a big deal that I did not address that but if you insist

There is no comparison between the Great Commission and God's command to Noah to build an Ark.

The Great Commission is the instruction of Jesus Christ to his disciples to spread his teachings to all the nations of the world. To think Jesus' instructions were only meant for the original disciples to instruct the kingdom of Israel is foolish. Every living person that becomes a believer of Jesus and His message is a disciple. And as such are expected to obey the Great Commission in order to fulfill His mandate to reach all the nations of the world with God's truth.

 

[Wansvic]

I repeat, signs and wonders are done to authenticate the Gospel of the Kingdom.

The Jewish leaders repeatedly reject the Holy Spirit, who was the member of the Trinity responsible for these signs and wonders in Acts.

Acts 4 The priests and the captain of the temple guard and the Sadducees came up to Peter and John while they were speaking to the people. 2 They were greatly disturbed because the apostles were teaching the people, proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection of the dead.

8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: “Rulers and elders of the people! 9 If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a man who was lame and are being asked how he was healed, 10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed.

16 “What are we going to do with these men?” they asked. “Everyone living in Jerusalem knows they have performed a notable sign, and we cannot deny it. 17 But to stop this thing from spreading any further among the people, we must warn them to speak no longer to anyone in this name.”

Peter witnessed for himself how, despite the Holy Spirit giving them signs and wonders to verify their message to the Jewish nation, the leaders are determined to reject God. Peter also knew what happened to Stephen in Acts 6 and 7

8 Now Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, performed great wonders and signs among the people. 9 Opposition arose, however, from members of the Synagogue of the Freedmen (as it was called)—Jews of Cyrene and Alexandria as well as the provinces of Cilicia and Asia—who began to argue with Stephen. 10 But they could not stand up against the wisdom the Spirit gave him as he spoke.

15 All who were sitting in the Sanhedrin looked intently at Stephen, and they saw that his face was like the face of an angel.

Acts 7
54 When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

57 At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58 dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul.
====

When Peter heard of this account, I strongly suspect he sensed that the Jewish nation is determined to reject what the Holy Spirit is doing in Israel through them. The Great Commission that Jesus gave them in Matthew 28 was not going to be fulfilled, the Jewish leaders are committing the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit by rejecting their message, which under the Law of Moses, was an unforgivable sin.

By the time Peter witnessed in Acts 10 that God is granting the Gentiles the Holy Spirit, indicating that God is now saving Gentiles without them having to do what Peter believed must be done in Acts 2:38, that is to repent and be baptized, Peter could sense that God is phasing out the Kingdom gospel to usher in a new program, which we now know as the Gospel of Grace.

Signs and wonders are still done because people are still being drawn to the Gospel of the Kingdom.

Secondly, you are doing the same thing the Jewish nation did by rejecting what the Holy Spirit is doing through born again believers today.

Thirdly, God did not change what is expected of all believers. The Gentile population had to be obedient to the same commands given by Peter on the Day of Pentecost. Repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus, and receiving the Holy Ghost is evidenced in the record, (Acts 10:44-48) albeit in a different sequence.

It is likely God poured out His Spirit first as confirmation to Peter that Gentiles were accepted. One wonders whether Peter would have administered water baptism without this final confirmation from God. Due to God's action, Peter could be assured that to forbid Gentiles access to the water's of baptism was to withstand God Himself.

 

[presidente]

The signs and wonders of the Apostles ended in the epistles with Paul's friends sick and on medicine. But the prayer of faith still heals the sick. People confuse this claiming the gifts are still here.

Why do you think the prayer of faith still heals the sick if Paul left someone sick on Miletus? Why wouldn't your line of reasoning apply to prayer as much as it does to miracles?

Why would you think II Timothy was written after the latter chapters of Acts where Paul healed all who were sick on an island anyway?

I have demonstrated that Paul had an illness early in his ministry and then did great miracles afterward, which disproves your underlying assumption.

You are basing doctrine on your theories. The Bible does not teach that miracles faded away over time. That's a theory you try to eisegete into the Bible, but it does not fit when we look at the whole of scripture. If i had some theory that onions were evil, I could try to find scriptures to build around my theory-- the Israelites wanting to go back to Egypt for the onions. But the Bible doesn't actually teach that onions are evil. I'd be trying to slap verses on my theory, which is what you are doing with the idea of signs and wonders ending over time.

 

[Wansvic]

If Peter preached the Gospel to the Jews and Paul preached it to the Gentiles, that doesn't mean there were two gospels.

You should read the opening of the epistle to see what Paul thinks about other gospels.

Galatians 1

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Paul wasn't saying Peter was preaching another Gospel and then cursing him. And Peter pointed out in Acts 15:7, "God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.". And in Acts 9, we read that Ananias heard the Lord speak the following about Paul's calling. "15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: " Their calling wasn't exclusive and their gospels were not different or contradictory.

See also his comments in Romans 10.
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

and he calls their preaching 'gospel' in this chapter.
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

You really have to repent and prioritize the word of God over the dispensationalism. The hyperdispensational stuff can be damaging. Look at the warning in Galatians 1. Do you really want to advocate for two gospels considering that?

Another point is that Peter was the first to preach the one and only gospel to both the Jews and Gentiles (Acts 2, 10) Peter also assisted Philip in bringing the gospel to the Samaritans those who were half Jewish and half Gentile.

Afterward Paul was appointed apostle to carry the same gospel to the Gentile population.