A Generalized Question

[Angela53510]

I just figured out what you are doing, KJV1611. You are taking an on-line version which takes the KJV and puts the Greek underneath the words. That is NOT the original word order. That is not interlinear, but rather using a version (KJV) to look at the Greek words.

The proper order is:

"καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος." John 1:1c

And God was the word. Except that you have to put "the word" to the front of the phrase in English, because it is the nominative case, which means it is the subject. God is at the front in the Greek, because it is the most important thing - for emphasis.

Wait, I already wrote all this out once, and either you didn't read it, or you didn't understand it.

So I am done discussing this. There are none so blind as those who cannot see! Or those who don't have a clue about English grammar, let alone Greek!

(And yes, it boogles me how people can read an out-of-date and archaic translation, base their whole Christian walk on it, but can't understand basic grammar!)

 

[DesiredHaven]

Hi DesiredHaven ~ You're on no hook with me, Sister. Neither is Brother Reborn. On the contrary, I was saying use of the word groovy was just fine, as I believe Brother Jeff_56 was in agreement.

Honestly, I too was wondering why the "crude and inaccurate definition" was pointed out to you in the first place.

Thank you Violetreigns, and I sure didnt mean on the hook as a bad thing (not even with Jeff_56 ) but more like subject to being educated about it simply for elbowing Reborn who used it. It was just so old fashioned in a dorky sense of things it caught me off gaurd (as his humor always days) and I found it funny. I was being playful. It was just about acknowledging his post in that way, I really wasnt asking a question concerning what it meant.

To be honest with you I really wasnt paying attention to the defintions coming my way (right or wrong, subtle or not) I didnt cross check the other either simply because it was unimportant to me.

Sometimes barely read what others post, especially if its not scripture concerning something I am interested in and sorta just think, yadda, yadda, yadda (and I pass over them) with a short reply to get moving (without thinking too much about it).

Thank you Sis, God bless you

 

[Angela53510]

Hey Angela... nice to talk to you again, I hope you're doing well.

My first question would be where did you get "Kai theos en ho logos" from? The Greek the KJV was translated from doesn't say the same thing. The Greek from the KJV is as follows:

kai ho logos ane pros theos kai ho logos ane theos

Translated to say "the word was with God, and the word was God". The "originals" don't agree with one another. Which one is right, the version you posted from or the version I posted from?

One more stab at WORD ORDER in other languages!

I speak French as a second language, and this is an easy example so hopefully you will understand what I am talking about.

French:
La Maison Bleue

English.
The House Blue

Now in English, the adjective (blue) comes before the noun. So according to what your internet site has done, where you supposedly found the transliteration of John 1:1c

The blue house
La Bleue maison

This is NOT how you say it in French. The adjective must follow the noun. La maison bleue.

So in English, the SUBJECT which is what the sentence is about, does not have to appear at the beginning in Greek, like it usually does in English.

Your internet site took

"and the Word was God" John 1:1c and put the Greek transliterated words underneath. (Maybe the Greek, too??)
" kai ho logo 'ane' Theos"

But that is NOT the order that it appears in the Greek.

Instead, the word order is:

"καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος." John 1:1c
"and God was the word." John 1:1c

However, that is not the right way to actually translate it, because "the Word" is the subject. So in English, it needs to be thrown forward to the front of the sentence.

Ok. I'm done now.

It occurs to me that you probably don't know what a noun, verb and adjective order is, let alone subject and predicate, let alone nominative, genitive, dative and accusative cases are in Greek or German.

Which is why some of of us study the Greek. Because we do, and it enriches both our knowledge of the Word of God, and helps us be better witnesses.

Sorry to have abducted the thread. But the ignorance of people saying that studying the Greek doesn't give you a greater understanding of God's Word just had to be dealt with.

Now, I am really, really, done!

 

[MarcR]

“Groovy” is known today as quintessential 1960’s counterculture slang meaning “excellent, great, very fashionable” (as in a groovy hairstyle or groovy music).

The emergence of “groovy” in the 1960’s was actually a reincarnation of the word, which first appeared in the jazz subculture of the 1930’s and was originally spelled “groovey” (“ ‘Groovey applied to the state of mind which is conducive to good playing,” American Speech, 1937). “Groovey” itself was based on the phrase “in the groove”, used by jazz musicians to describe playing that was smooth and effortlessly excellent.

“Groove” is, of course, a very old word, derived from a Germanic root meaning “pit”, the same root which gave us the English word “grave”. The original sense of “groove” was in fact “mining shaft or pit”, and it wasn’t until the 17th century that “groove” acquired its modern meaning of “channel or hollow cut in the surface of something.” By 1902, however, “groove” was being used to mean the spiral track on the surface of a phonograph record in which the needle rides. So when jazz musicians spoke of being “in the groove” while playing music, it meant that they felt or sounded as if they were producing the music as easily, fluently and flawlessly as a phonograph needle following the grooves on a record. Not that there was anything mechanical about their playing; to be truly “in the groove” is to lose oneself in the creative process, what some writers call being “in the flow.”

Of course, just like with every catch word or phrase under the sun, there are always those rebellious sort who try to turn every word into a filthy innuendo to appear sophisticated to the carnal world. Nevertheless, groovy was/is equivalent to: funky, awesome, cool, sweet, boss, hip, sick, hot, off the hook, mad, excellent, radical, bad, legit, ill, tight, dope, chill, fresh, real, epic, etc., etc.

View attachment 99309

Thank you for that!

Having spent a great deal of time in Greenwich Village coffee houses in my late teens and early 20s I witnessed what I thought was the development of the word and was not pleased with it. I was there to hear Joan Baez and Judy Collins sing for tips at Mansini's

 

[MarcR]

I was aware of the Jazz related usage of Groovey with the (e). but groovy without the (e) appeared to be a new development associated with the loose sexual values of the counterculture.

 

[VioletReigns]

Seriously bro, must we keep reiterating that a word used in an innocent nature conjures up derogatory images for you? Get past it already. As Paul said in Philippians 3:13: “This one thing I do: forgetting what is behind…” Let’s press on ahead, shall we?

 

[MarcR]

Actually I was NOT offended by the word I truly believed that the usage of the word I had observed in my youth was truly its etymology and thought it should be called to people's attention WITHOUT JUDGMENT. (and now recognize without due consideration)

 

[VioletReigns]

You have driven your point home 7 times now. Once after I asked if we could move on from the etymology of words. Let's not derail the thread any further. The topic is: Studying the Bible from the original languages of Hebrew & Greek.

 

[DesiredHaven]

Shes gotta a point, this is getting a bit ridiculous now.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

You are ignoring the fact that greek manuscipts differ and most of them have been changed by ungodly people throughout history. Only one can be correct or none of them are correct. The word the not being in Greek does not mean the word is not required in English when Greek is translated to English. I believe the word war is unexistent in Mandarin Chinese, but that does not mean it is wrong to use the word war when translating the Chinese record of conflicts whcih were wars. If I'm wrong about the word "war" in Mandarin, it's still the same principle. Diferent languages have different ways of expressing things, but that does not mean those expressions cannot be accurately translated.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Actually I was NOT offended by the word I truly believed that the usage of the word I had observed in my youth was truly its etymology and thought it should be called to people's attention WITHOUT JUDGMENT. (and now recognize without due consideration)

A dirty word is a dirty word and to call it a dirty word is good judgement. If people want to be ignorant, they are going to use bad judgement and use bad words, and if they feel judged, maybe it's because they need to repent.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

I was aware of the Jazz related usage of Groovey with the (e). but groovy without the (e) appeared to be a new development associated with the loose sexual values of the counterculture.

Jazz is as dirty and sleezy as music can be, and to think the word "groovy" was invented only as a feel good word with no clear source would be dumb.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

I just figured out what you are doing, KJV1611. You are taking an on-line version which takes the KJV and puts the Greek underneath the words. That is NOT the original word order. That is not interlinear, but rather using a version (KJV) to look at the Greek words.

The proper order is:

"καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος." John 1:1c

And God was the word. Except that you have to put "the word" to the front of the phrase in English, because it is the nominative case, which means it is the subject. God is at the front in the Greek, because it is the most important thing - for emphasis.

Wait, I already wrote all this out once, and either you didn't read it, or you didn't understand it.

So I am done discussing this. There are none so blind as those who cannot see! Or those who don't have a clue about English grammar, let alone Greek!

(And yes, it boogles me how people can read an out-of-date and archaic translation, base their whole Christian walk on it, but can't understand basic grammar!)

You are ignoring the fact that Greek manuscripts differ and either none of them are correct or only one of them is correct. If you believe none of them are correct and they all must be compared to arrive at whatever you think it closest to the original, then you are making yourself more authoritative than the written Word of God because you are denying that the Word of God is written and given to us without error.

 

[Jeff_56]

ignorance speaks ignorance , and ignores God's warnings.

even their lives are profitless to talk about, so much more so their empty and vain and all too often inappropriate words,

according to the Word of God / Torah / Scripture / OT and NT.

 

[KJV1611]

One more stab at WORD ORDER in other languages!

I speak French as a second language, and this is an easy example so hopefully you will understand what I am talking about.

French:
La Maison Bleue

English.
The House Blue

Now in English, the adjective (blue) comes before the noun. So according to what your internet site has done, where you supposedly found the transliteration of John 1:1c

The blue house
La Bleue maison

This is NOT how you say it in French. The adjective must follow the noun. La maison bleue.

So in English, the SUBJECT which is what the sentence is about, does not have to appear at the beginning in Greek, like it usually does in English.

Your internet site took

"and the Word was God" John 1:1c and put the Greek transliterated words underneath. (Maybe the Greek, too??)
" kai ho logo 'ane' Theos"

But that is NOT the order that it appears in the Greek.

Instead, the word order is:

"καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος." John 1:1c
"and God was the word." John 1:1c

However, that is not the right way to actually translate it, because "the Word" is the subject. So in English, it needs to be thrown forward to the front of the sentence.

Ok. I'm done now.

It occurs to me that you probably don't know what a noun, verb and adjective order is, let alone subject and predicate, let alone nominative, genitive, dative and accusative cases are in Greek or German.

Which is why some of of us study the Greek. Because we do, and it enriches both our knowledge of the Word of God, and helps us be better witnesses.

Sorry to have abducted the thread. But the ignorance of people saying that studying the Greek doesn't give you a greater understanding of God's Word just had to be dealt with.

Now, I am really, really, done!

Hey I'm sorry, I'm not as smart as you are on the Greek... I don't know anything about it actually, other than what I've learned from you. Stay with me here, I want to understand this... In your opinion, which definition of θεὸς did God intend in John 1:1?

θεὸς - 1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities 2) the Godhead, trinity 2a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity 2b) Christ, the second person of the trinity 2c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity 3) spoken of the only and true God 3a) refers to the things of God 3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him 4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way 4a) God's representative or viceregent 4a1) of magistrates and judges

 

[Angela53510]

Hey I'm sorry, I'm not as smart as you are on the Greek... I don't know anything about it actually, other than what I've learned from you. Stay with me here, I want to understand this... In your opinion, which definition of θεὸς did God intend in John 1:1?

θεὸς - 1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities 2) the Godhead, trinity 2a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity 2b) Christ, the second person of the trinity 2c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity 3) spoken of the only and true God 3a) refers to the things of God 3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him 4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way 4a) God's representative or viceregent 4a1) of magistrates and judges

It's ok! I am old school and old! Grammar was drilled into my head in middle school, till I could write every tense in 3 languages.

As far as your question, I am going to answer it with a quote from my original post in this thread, about why Greek is important, to show cults why they are wrong.

"The emphatic position of θεός (theos) stresses its essence of quality” “What God was, the Word was” is how one translation brings out this force. Its lack of a definition article keeps us from identifying the Person of the Word (Jesus Christ) with the person of “God” (the Father).

That means that the word order tells us that Jesus Christ has all the divine attributes that the Father has: lack of the article tells us the Jesus Christ is not the Father.

John’s wording here is beautifully compact! It is in fact, one of the most elegantly terse theological statements one could ever find. As Martin Luther said, the lack of an article is against Sabellianism; the word order is against Arianism"

 

[KJV1611]

It's ok! I am old school and old! Grammar was drilled into my head in middle school, till I could write every tense in 3 languages.

As far as your question, I am going to answer it with a quote from my original post in this thread, about why Greek is important, to show cults why they are wrong.

"The emphatic position of θεός (theos) stresses its essence of quality” “What God was, the Word was” is how one translation brings out this force. Its lack of a definition article keeps us from identifying the Person of the Word (Jesus Christ) with the person of “God” (the Father).

That means that the word order tells us that Jesus Christ has all the divine attributes that the Father has: lack of the article tells us the Jesus Christ is not the Father.

John’s wording here is beautifully compact! It is in fact, one of the most elegantly terse theological statements one could ever find. As Martin Luther said, the lack of an article is against Sabellianism; the word order is against Arianism"

You're not old! When I was 30 yes you were old, but now that I'm 50, old has changed to about 80 lol.

Listen, I did read all your first post after you posted it, but the Greek order was throwing me off. Thanks for showing me my error. I still would like to know which θεὸς you think is being used in the last part of verse of 1... I want to see if it matches what I think.

I think it goes like this: In the beginning was the Word (Jesus Christ), and the Word was with God (the Father), and the Word was God (the Godhead). The same (Word) was in the beginning with God (the Father). In my opinion, in English that is the only way it could make sense. Does the Greek agree with this?

 

[DiscipleDave]

DiscipleDave said :

And this is my point, you don't NEED the GREEK to PROVE Jesus is God. A person who believes Jesus is God because the Bible says He is God, is more righteous that a person who HAS to go to the Greek to PROVE that Jesus is God. i need no proof that He is God, nobody NEEDS to study the Hebrew and Greek to PROVE that He is God. He is God, because the Bible says He is God. PERIOD. No further proof needed. Why would someone seek this PROOF, unless they doubted to begin with.

Do you see the problem. Those who are spiritual, do not need proof nor do they go looking for the proof. Listen to your statement


Are we Christians not instructed to believe the Word of God on FAITH, not based on PROOF. The English Bible most assuredly teaches that Jesus is God, because it says "Jesus is God" IF i 100% believe the English Bible that says Jesus is God, then what more can i add to that 100% by studying the Greek? If i believe the English Bible and what it says, why would i need to study the GREEK to get the Proof? i already know it is the Truth, don't NEED the Greek to prove it.
Now if the lost, don't believe that Jesus is God, even though that is what the Bible teaches, then by all means show them, or the doubters, the Greek which proves that He is God. But here is the Truth, if they do not believe the Word of God which plainly teach He is God, they will not believe the Greek either.
Now am i saying it is not interesting? No, it is very interesting that the Greek PROVES Jesus is God, but that information is something i already knew to be True, via the English KJV Bible.

As I started my post #73 talking about cults, not believers, I would think you could understand that I mean "prove it to cultists."

Surely you understand, that i can't possibly know what everyone means, when they say something. i am sorry if i offended you in any way, it was not my intentions.

You can prove cultist have wrongly translated the Bible,and have wrong doctrine. But then, you probably didn't read all of post #73 about Arianism (JW's etc) and Sabellianism.

i did read your entire post, but i did not respond to everything in it, i responded to your statement

It IS IMPORTANT. Because the Greek PROVES Jesus is God, in a way the English can never do.

Which you were suggesting Christian to do, nothing to do with cultist. i made it clear that statment is what i was responding to, if you would like me to respond to the other things you said in the post, just let me know, and i will respond to them as well.

Believers don't need proof, they just need a relationship with Jesus, and the Word of God.

i agree, but like i said before i was commenting on your saying

It IS IMPORTANT. Because the Greek PROVES Jesus is God, in a way the English can never do.

Which seems very clearly to indicate that you believe the Greek PROVES Jesus is God BETTER than the English can. This is what my whole post in reply was about, Not about the cultist, or Arianism (JW's etc) and Sabellianism.

^i^ Responding to Post#88

 

[dcontroversal]

I would like to see an example of Greek and Hebrew giving better understanding of scripture. To be honest, the only thing I see people use Greek and Hebrew for is too twist the meaning of scripture to make it line up with their beliefs.

No offence, but this is a very ignorant statement and lacks the understanding of history....those who transliterated baptizo instead of translating the word has led to many who believe sprinkling is ok or correct.....this is just one example of many...and to add I will say that someone who worships a version of the bible instead of the God of the version would ultimately come to the conclusion that you came to!

WOW!

 

[Angela53510]

You're not old! When I was 30 yes you were old, but now that I'm 50, old has changed to about 80 lol.

Listen, I did read all your first post after you posted it, but the Greek order was throwing me off. Thanks for showing me my error. I still would like to know which θεὸς you think is being used in the last part of verse of 1... I want to see if it matches what I think.

I think it goes like this: In the beginning was the Word (Jesus Christ), and the Word was with God (the Father), and the Word was God (the Godhead). The same (Word) was in the beginning with God (the Father). In my opinion, in English that is the only way it could make sense. Does the Greek agree with this?

Yes, that is what I said in the post above. That is exactly what it says! I'm glad we are in agreement here!

PS. Glad to hear 60 is the new 40! LOL