A Perspective on Evolution

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Good sir, did you not see the point of my post. Can you not see the difference between calling something infinite and EFFECTIVELY infinite. I'm not talking high religious thought here, just simple grammar. To be infinite is to one thing. To be EFFECTIVELY infinite is to not be infinite, but for the purposes of the example, be infinite. The sun's energy is EFFECTIVELY infinite compared to the short span of a human life.

Effective: - Serving to effect the purpose; producing the intended or expected result.

Do you think it is possible that someone can not lie, cheat, steal, covet, hoard, lust, kill, and judge and still not accept Jesus? I try to leave a peaceful life, and I live many of the principals taught in the bible. I do not however accept Christ. I am an atheist. Do you believe that all atheists are immoral? Can someone have morality without Jesus?

"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is an anti-christ, that denieth the Son and the father." 1 John 2:22

I can argue facts. I simply wished to state that I was not going to do so in my post. I expected that no one would try to argue points on religion with me, but rather points about your style of argument. Points you have once again seemed to gloss over. You have not yet attempted to refute my point: That you do not know what "effectively" means, or that you do know what it means and chose to ignore it in order to belittle someone else.

It means 'in effect' the Sun is effectively finite as an energy source, whereby you lie and sy it is 'effectively infinite', that makes you a liar.

I don't understand how you can make an argument "The Bible is the most scientifically accurate record in existence."
Then have it refuted: The scientific method had not been created when the bible was written, therefore the Bible is not a scientific text.

All truth is given by God, God is truth, if we take science to be an investigation of truth, then science agrees with what God has said.

Once again I would like to state, I am not trying to support evolution. I am trying to question your methods of debate.

I know that, it's called rhetorics and sophistry.

I also sense much anger in your post. I get a "I am holier than thou" sense from it. Maybe you believe you are. Maybe you are, But I don't think Jesus would have flaunted his holiness at me if I was attempting to have an educated and civilized discussion with him.

Luke 8:10 "Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables: that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand."

I am also disturbed that instead of trying to help me, I feel as if you are denouncing me. Most Christians I have chatted with are very kind, and when we are finished speaking they say that they hope I will one day find my way to Jesus. Although right now I do not think I will, I am very touched by their sentiments. I feel no such sentiments about you as of right now.

I don't care how you feel about me, I took the time to tell you the truth and I have the quoted the Bible so God can testify to you.

 

[Brackenzee]

Effective: - Serving to effect the purpose; producing the intended or expected result.

Yes, yes, now combine this with the word infinite and you'll get what I'm saying.

It means 'in effect' the Sun is effectively finite as an energy source, whereby you lie and sy it is 'effectively infinite', that makes you a liar.

Okay, you are definitely BSing now.

All truth is given by God, God is truth, if we take science to be an investigation of truth, then science agrees with what God has said.

But of course, who could forget Jesus' Geological Dissertation on the Mount, or the Parable of the Prodigal Atom.

I know that, it's called rhetorics and sophistry.

I love how you describe your debating style with words that have connotations of 'fast talking nonsense designed to persuade the weak-minded'. Because that's all you've produced thus far.

Luke 8:10 "Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables: that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand."

Because honest seekers of the truth were totally the people Jesus was hiding his teachings from.

I don't care how you feel about me, I took the time to tell you the truth and I have the quoted the Bible so God can testify to you.

You quoted the Bible in a discussion about thermodynamics and entropy! That's like quoting the rules of chess in a debate about the benefits of calisthenics.

 

[Zalen]

Alright let's just get to the point then.
I know you don't care how I feel about you, but I think you should care about how you feel about me.

What do you think Brakenzee was trying to say when he said the sun is effectively infinite in terms of energy added to the system of our planet?

I think that he was trying to make a statement: The system of our planet is not closed because energy is constantly being added to it. This energy is given to us by the sun. Because the sun has so much energy, and will produce so much energy for billions of years to come it is practically infinite in comparison to human life.

You thought he was saying that the sun is infinite in power.

Of course it is not infinite. It will die, but would you not agree that because it's energy output is so large relative to us, we really don't have a frame of mind in which to put it? Would you not say that because we can't really comprehend the power of the sun it is practically infinite? Effectively infinite for the purposes of the model we have created?

Neither I nor Brakenzee were trying to say that the sun is infinite. We know it is finite and we expected that to be common knowledge. That is why it was surprising to us when you ignored the word effectively and jumped to the conclusion that we are liars hellbent on doing Satan's work to spread the doctrine of evolution.

Did you honestly think that we were trying to convince people that the sun is infinite?

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

What do you think Brakenzee was trying to say when he said the sun is effectively infinite in terms of energy added to the system of our planet?

The sun's energy output is not infinite, or 'effectively' infinite, it is finite, like I have told you it is.

I think that he was trying to make a statement: The system of our planet is not closed because energy is constantly being added to it. This energy is given to us by the sun. Because the sun has so much energy, and will produce so much energy for billions of years to come it is practically infinite in comparison to human life.

Look, it's not infinite, the Sun is a finite source, fullstop......

You thought he was saying that the sun is infinite in power.

He did say that, and you just did also, so you are now ageeing with me that the sun is in fact finite?

Of course it is not infinite. It will die, but would you not agree that because it's energy output is so large relative to us, we really don't have a frame of mind in which to put it? Would you not say that because we can't really comprehend the power of the sun it is practically infinite? Effectively infinite for the purposes of the model we have created?

Now your contradicting yourself, you don't even need any input from me, you can simply contradict your own self.

Neither I nor Brakenzee were trying to say that the sun is infinite. We know it is finite and we expected that to be common knowledge. That is why it was surprising to us when you ignored the word effectively and jumped to the conclusion that we are liars hellbent on doing Satan's work to spread the doctrine of evolution.

I didn't ignore the word 'effectively' I just gave the definition, the sun's effect is finite, eventually it dies, because it is subject to the second law of thermodynamics, the entire universe is.

Did you honestly think that we were trying to convince people that the sun is infinite?

Oh dear me, I don't know what you think. I know that the sun is a finite source that is why that I said it was such.

 

[Brackenzee]

He did say that, and you just did also, so you are now ageeing with me that the sun is in fact finite? Now your contradicting yourself, you don't even need any input from me, you can simply contradict your own self.I didn't ignore the word 'effectively' I just gave the definition, the sun's effect is finite, eventually it dies, because it is subject to the second law of thermodynamics, the entire universe is.

You're still colossally missing the point. Yes, the sun is finite.

The point is that because the sun has been pumping energy into Earth's organisms since time immemorial. And becasue this energy is leaving the sun and coming to Earth, this planet is not a closed system. And because this planet is not a closed system--becasue this planet has energy being transmitted into it--the second law of thermodynamics does not make it impossible for organisms to become more complex. Therefore organisms increasing in diversity and complexity is possible. And because of this, the argument that evolution is impossible because of the second law of thermodynamics is invalid.

And becasue of this, you're going to have to find a better argument if you want to seriously undermine the current theories about biological diversity.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

You're still colossally missing the point. Yes, the sun is finite.

The point is that because the sun has been pumping energy into Earth's organisms since time immemorial.

The sun had a beginning, whichever way you want to look at it, from Biblical point of view or a secular scientific point of view, make no difference the Sun had a beginning, there was a time when the sun did not exist, just as it has a beginning it has an end, it is a finite energy source, it is not eternal neither is it's energy.

And becasue this energy is leaving the sun and coming to Earth, this planet is not a closed system.

Well unless your proposing there is a secondary solar source in our solar system, then the system is closed in as far as the sun is the only known sorce of solar energy in our solar system.

And because this planet is not a closed system--becasue this planet has energy being transmitted into it--the second law of thermodynamics does not make it impossible for organisms to become more complex.

Not over time, no, over time the sun will reduce it's energy output, this results in less energy for the earth.

the second law of thermodynamics is invalid.

???????

And becasue of this, you're going to have to find a better argument if you want to seriously undermine the current theories about biological diversity.

Biological diversity is decreasing, it will always decrease over time, look around you in the world, we find many species extinct, becoming extinct, some simply vanish, your argument is like saying that an increase in algae bloom is a sign of increasing diversity, it's not, it's just a sign of iincreasing algae, and a sign of decreasing complexity and diversity which is what we witness when we investigate the nature of our world.

 

[Brackenzee]

Great job of misquoting me there. I said:

the argument that evolution is impossible because of the second law of thermodynamics is invalid.

And yes, species are going extinct, but that is largely becasue human beings have altered the environments in which these species would best thrive--or in more drastic cases, have killed them off in large numbers.

Plants and animals that we use for industrial or agricultural purposes, on the other hand, are thriving, and domesticated animals like dogs and cats are selectively bred to increase diversity.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

And yes, species are going extinct, but that is largely becasue human beings have altered the environments in which these species would best thrive--or in more drastic cases, have killed them off in large numbers.

OK, so we have a clear example of decreasing biodiversity.

Plants and animals that we use for industrial or agricultural purposes, on the other hand, are thriving, and domesticated animals like dogs and cats are selectively bred to increase diversity.

Firstly that some species are increasing in number, while more species are dissapearing is a sign of decreasing diversity, like algae bloom, you have more algae but a less complex and diverse enviromental system.

Secondly, domesticated animal breeding is a sign of intelligent manipulation, it's not a sign of impersonal random evolution, also no characteristics in the given species beimg bred are new, thery're just existing traits, that over time would revert back to their original type, no new species is created, it's all within the boundries of the species, your not creating new DNA, your just rearranging what already in existence. Cat and dog breeding or farm husbandry is a very poor example of evolution, it's more of an example of intelligent design I would suggest.

 

[Zalen]

ugh, i'm off this page. It's not going to go anywhere. Good luck Brakenzee.

 

[taylor_11]

I learned something cool a few weeks ago. In the Bible, the Greek word - I think its Greek, I cant remember - that we translate as "day" can also be traslated as "age" So, theoretically, God could either have made the Earth and everything in it in 6 days....or 6 ages.

Just an interesting bit of info =) Kinda makes you think a little differently

 

[BXblessings2you]

I learned something cool a few weeks ago. In the Bible, the Greek word - I think its Greek, I cant remember - that we translate as "day" can also be traslated as "age" So, theoretically, God could either have made the Earth and everything in it in 6 days....or 6 ages.

Just an interesting bit of info =) Kinda makes you think a little differently

I remember when I first heard that, I almost immediately came to conclude evolution was then true. However, no where in the Bible does that word seem to refer to such a long period of time

 

[MahogonySnail]

Genesis 1 clearly shows the days are actually days, because it says that morning and evening comes and that's a day: "And the evening and the morning were the fourth day." Even if the word for day could mean an age, it should be clear it's still talking about an actual day of an evening and a morning.

 

[Definition_Christ]

I recommend Dr Jonathan Safari ... He has a lot of books on Evolution and Compromise... ... Really recommended.

 

[taylor_11]

Thats a good point =)

 

[Definition_Christ]

Day......In Hebrew
יום
yôm
From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): - age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Sun and moon were not created until the fouth day, so it's possible that the first 3 days were not literal 24 hr days, we simply did not have a 24 hr day until the fourth day.

 

[MahogonySnail]

IF it says it was created in 7 days, which is why we have a 7 day week and theres the whole 7 day sabbath thing, and the bible draws no distinction between th efirst couple of days being any longer than the rest, then it must be a 7 day literal creation.

 

[greatkraw]

God foresaw this controversy as he foresaw many other issues. That is why the scripture includes such phrases as, evening and morning was one day and bringing forth after their kind.

You cannot seriously embrace BOTH the Bible and Evolution.

The Bible talks of 'Science, falsely so called' and 'doctrines of demons'

An Hypothesis is an idea which is proposed - as Darwin did in his book (by the way he said the evidence would be included in a following book which never eventuated)

A Theory is an Hypotheseis which has been and can be proven by anyone via experiment. This has not nor ever can be done with the superstition of evolution.

 

[Graybeard]

The Bible talks of 'Science, falsely so called' and 'doctrines of demons'

I really don't think science is a 'doctrines of demons'...science on the contrary, actually proves Gods awesomeness
what scripture points to science being this??

 

[perry6911]

October 18, 2009

Life, Matter and the cosmos:

There is no beginning of matter or life. God is in the past, present and future. God is truth and has always been and will forever be. God is life and matter and there is no divide between the two. Nature is the law by which God governs is a system of acquiring knowledge based on scientific method. Science the organized body of knowledge gained through such research. Physics is the scientific study of matter and energy and how they interact with each other. Physics utilizes the scientific method to formulate and test hypotheses that are based on observation of the natural world. Physics is a man made phenomenon and is one of the oldest academic disciplines that study the fundamental laws of nature. Physics does not deal with truth; it deals with successive approximations of the truth.
The cosmos space that stretches out in all directions has no limits and contains all things. The cosmos sphere is not surrounded and is in a continuous state of perpetual motion. As in mathematical abstract numbers that are infinite, so too is the space of the cosmos. Matter including life have no before and after and is in a state of perpetual motion dying and being born again over and over always in absolute constant. It can be postulated that life and matter cannot be destroyed, only changed there is no totality in matter or life. The knowledge of God is incomprehensible and there is no scientific proof of a higher power other than in the spiritual realm where faith and rationalization of mankind that there must be a God. Space is an area that stretches in all directions and has no limits or boundaries and contains all things. The galaxies that is a grouping of stars, planets and other matter in the limitless cosmos is in a continues state of change that replicate themselves by giving birth, dying out and rebirth again in a differ location in the limitless cosmos. This is the sum of mankind’s knowledge and understanding of life and matter before taking the huge leap into the realm of mysticism of the doctrine that meditation can lead to a direct knowledge of God or of spiritual truth, which are most often muddled, vague and obscure is eternal in so far as it conceives things under the form of eternity. God’s universe is not ruled by wishful thinking, but by immutable laws”. . As others have noted in the past, “God reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exist, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human kinds. There is only deep regret that God punishes so many of his children for their numerous stupidities, for which only he himself can be held responsible.