A Self-Sustaining Universe

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C

charisenexcelcis

Guest
#1
A Self-Sustaining Universe.

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth…”
When God created the universe, the fall of man had not occurred. If He is not presumptuous in His omniscience, and I believe He is not, He designed it to last for eternity. Most scientists say that the universe is winding down, in fact science would say that eventually all matter will be iron and all energy will be trapped in that iron. What would it take for the universe to be self sustaining? Again, according to atheistic science, the answer would be a continuous supply of Hydrogen.
To understand this you must first understand the life cycle of a star. A star is a giant fusion reactor that takes simple elements and creates heavier elements. Once a fusion reaction is started it will continue until it runs out of fuel. In the case of a nuclear bomb or H-bomb (as opposed to an atomic bomb) there is insufficient energy to go beyond turning hydrogen into helium. In the case of a star, it will continue until it converts all of the fuel available into iron. Iron fusion requires a continuous source of energy, not just fuel, so fusion stops when the energy is captured or escapes. What that means is that all stars will eventually either explode or turn into huge balls of iron.
That brings us to fission. Fission takes heavy elements and turns them into lighter elements. Once a fission reaction is started it will continue until it runs out of fuel. This can occur through radioactive decay or explosive fission. Radioactive decay occurs slowly and spontaneously in all heavy elements until all of the fuel available is converted into iron. Iron fission requires a continuous source of energy, not just fuel, so fission stops when the energy is captured or escapes. Explosive fission occurs in atomic bombs and nuclear power plants. What that means is that the solid planets are slowly turning into large balls of iron.
The wild card is when a star explodes. The amount of energy released in the explosion of the star is enough to cause iron and similar elements to fuse into even heavier elements, such as lead, uranium, etc.
So the universe is recycling matter, moving it by fission and fusion up and down the chart of elements, creating everything except hydrogen—that is assuming there is not an undiscovered process that creates hydrogen. Or, that the universe is not closed, meaning that there is a source of hydrogen that is outside or not limited to the universe.
“By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.”
 
M

Maranatha_Yeshua

Guest
#2
Very nicely put together, I love finding out how complex God's creation is, and at times - not understandable! Always amazes me. Thanks for the post and Scripture!
God bless.
 
G

greatkraw

Guest
#3
actually the universe is sustained by the expression of God's power

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
 
Jan 22, 2010
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#4
If G-d is going to eventually remake the universe, why would He make it last for eternity? I don't think the scientists are wrong, I think G-d designed the universe to eventually come to an end. Then He remakes it, as He said He would in Scripture.
 
G

greatkraw

Guest
#5
When God made the universevHe said it was very good

Peter said the fall affected all of creation

the fall may explain the law of entropy
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#7
If Adam and Eve was supposed to live for ever on earth, and never die, and God commanded them to be fruitful and multiply, then there would have been a time in the future when the whole world would be overpopulated, and it would be necessary for God to introduce death and decay, which is why He put a tree of knowledge and satan in the garden of Eden, because He created a non-sustainable system in the first place and this needed to be corrected. The new earth, will be sustainable because there will be no producing babies, because people will be like the angels and not marry as Jesus said.
 
Jan 22, 2010
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#8
If Adam and Eve was supposed to live for ever on earth, and never die, and God commanded them to be fruitful and multiply, then there would have been a time in the future when the whole world would be overpopulated, and it would be necessary for God to introduce death and decay, which is why He put a tree of knowledge and satan in the garden of Eden, because He created a non-sustainable system in the first place and this needed to be corrected. The new earth, will be sustainable because there will be no producing babies, because people will be like the angels and not marry as Jesus said.
Shiny. Well said, Snail.
 
C

charisenexcelcis

Guest
#9
Good points all. Of course even the natural laws of the universe are merely the patterns of His will. Fission and fusion occur and behave such and such by His will and if He withdrew His will for a moment the entire universe would cease to exist. I believe that God is not presumptive in His omniscience, so I believe that the universe would have continued forever except for the fall. The pattern of creation indicates to me that His intent was that we would be His regent over the entire universe. With a continual supply of hydrogen, an expanding universe would continue to expand to allow the continued growth of humanity. Or perhaps once we "filled the earth", procreation would have ended.
 
Jan 22, 2010
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#10
Good points all. Of course even the natural laws of the universe are merely the patterns of His will. Fission and fusion occur and behave such and such by His will and if He withdrew His will for a moment the entire universe would cease to exist. I believe that God is not presumptive in His omniscience, so I believe that the universe would have continued forever except for the fall. The pattern of creation indicates to me that His intent was that we would be His regent over the entire universe. With a continual supply of hydrogen, an expanding universe would continue to expand to allow the continued growth of humanity. Or perhaps once we "filled the earth", procreation would have ended.
Except science shows that the universe will eventually come to an end, which fits perfectly with the will of G-d as recorded in scripture.
 
K

karuna

Guest
#11
Except science shows that the universe will eventually come to an end, which fits perfectly with the will of G-d as recorded in scripture.
This is a consequence of the most popular models. It's not clear whether the laws are as homogeneous as they appear, though. If the visible universe is representative then this is correct, but we're not even sure, for instance, that monotonically increasing entropy is a global phenomenon. The idea that there's a consensus on cosmology, especially beyond what we can see, is misleading.
 
Jan 22, 2010
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#12
This is a consequence of the most popular models. It's not clear whether the laws are as homogeneous as they appear, though. If the visible universe is representative then this is correct, but we're not even sure, for instance, that monotonically increasing entropy is a global phenomenon.
True, but currently the most conclusive evidence we have is that even if the universe goes on, our planet and even our solar system will not.
 
C

charisenexcelcis

Guest
#13
True, but currently the most conclusive evidence we have is that even if the universe goes on, our planet and even our solar system will not.
I agree. I do hold the view that prior to the fall, the universe could have been perpetual.
 
Jan 22, 2010
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#14
I agree. I do hold the view that prior to the fall, the universe could have been perpetual.
It's entirely possible. Scripture doesn't tell us either way, so I'm willing to accept either idea.
 
K

karuna

Guest
#15
Most scientists say that the universe is winding down, in fact science would say that eventually all matter will be iron and all energy will be trapped in that iron.
It's even more bleak than that in some models! Eventually, all that iron will decay into its component parts and the universe might become a flat, cold place in which photons only occasionally come within a mile of each other.

Again, according to atheistic science, the answer would be a continuous supply of Hydrogen.
I alluded to the idea above that it's not clear that universal laws are in fact universal. We can see only the visible universe and have no promise that the rest of it, if there is a rest of it, works like the local universe. Furthermore, we're not even sure local laws are laws. They might merely be good approximations of the long-term behavior; there could be relatively rare behaviors that we can't account for.

What you're talking about here is a gradual and irreversible increase in entropy; in lazy terms, the universe eventually becomes boring. Interestingly, there's actually a mathematical proof that entropy increases over time, but it's based on what Huw Price in "Time's Arrow and Archimedes' Point" calls the "principle of independence of incoming influences," which is only a mathematical convenience. If you're interested in learning about it, you'll probably want to read about Boltzmann's stozahlansatz, which is how it's more commonly known. In any case, it doesn't necessarily hold in the real world. It's not clear that everything'll eventually become flat, much less what to do when we get to that point.

We might not need hydrogen. We might merely need time. Evaporating black holes. A change in the structure of the vacuum. Scientists as a whole don't pretend to have reached a consensus, even though a number of provocative models have their cheering squads.
 
C

charisenexcelcis

Guest
#16
It's even more bleak than that in some models! Eventually, all that iron will decay into its component parts and the universe might become a flat, cold place in which photons only occasionally come within a mile of each other.

I alluded to the idea above that it's not clear that universal laws are in fact universal. We can see only the visible universe and have no promise that the rest of it, if there is a rest of it, works like the local universe. Furthermore, we're not even sure local laws are laws. They might merely be good approximations of the long-term behavior; there could be relatively rare behaviors that we can't account for.

What you're talking about here is a gradual and irreversible increase in entropy; in lazy terms, the universe eventually becomes boring. Interestingly, there's actually a mathematical proof that entropy increases over time, but it's based on what Huw Price in "Time's Arrow and Archimedes' Point" calls the "principle of independence of incoming influences," which is only a mathematical convenience. If you're interested in learning about it, you'll probably want to read about Boltzmann's stozahlansatz, which is how it's more commonly known. In any case, it doesn't necessarily hold in the real world. It's not clear that everything'll eventually become flat, much less what to do when we get to that point.

We might not need hydrogen. We might merely need time. Evaporating black holes. A change in the structure of the vacuum. Scientists as a whole don't pretend to have reached a consensus, even though a number of provocative models have their cheering squads.
Yes, there is the possibility that the recylcing loop is complete and no one has been able to observe it.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#17
Or perhaps once we "filled the earth", procreation would have ended.
That's possible. That at some point in time certain parts of the human anatomy would suddenly drop off. Thus preventing procreation.
 
Feb 3, 2010
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#18
A Self-Sustaining Universe.

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth…”
When God created the universe, the fall of man had not occurred. If He is not presumptuous in His omniscience, and I believe He is not, He designed it to last for eternity. Most scientists say that the universe is winding down, in fact science would say that eventually all matter will be iron and all energy will be trapped in that iron. What would it take for the universe to be self sustaining? Again, according to atheistic science, the answer would be a continuous supply of Hydrogen.
To understand this you must first understand the life cycle of a star. A star is a giant fusion reactor that takes simple elements and creates heavier elements. Once a fusion reaction is started it will continue until it runs out of fuel. In the case of a nuclear bomb or H-bomb (as opposed to an atomic bomb) there is insufficient energy to go beyond turning hydrogen into helium. In the case of a star, it will continue until it converts all of the fuel available into iron. Iron fusion requires a continuous source of energy, not just fuel, so fusion stops when the energy is captured or escapes. What that means is that all stars will eventually either explode or turn into huge balls of iron.
That brings us to fission. Fission takes heavy elements and turns them into lighter elements. Once a fission reaction is started it will continue until it runs out of fuel. This can occur through radioactive decay or explosive fission. Radioactive decay occurs slowly and spontaneously in all heavy elements until all of the fuel available is converted into iron. Iron fission requires a continuous source of energy, not just fuel, so fission stops when the energy is captured or escapes. Explosive fission occurs in atomic bombs and nuclear power plants. What that means is that the solid planets are slowly turning into large balls of iron.
The wild card is when a star explodes. The amount of energy released in the explosion of the star is enough to cause iron and similar elements to fuse into even heavier elements, such as lead, uranium, etc.
So the universe is recycling matter, moving it by fission and fusion up and down the chart of elements, creating everything except hydrogen—that is assuming there is not an undiscovered process that creates hydrogen. Or, that the universe is not closed, meaning that there is a source of hydrogen that is outside or not limited to the universe.
“By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.”
Intriguing! Great post....you may want to check out....

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/n...ve_little_to_no_room_for_atheism_expert_says/
 
G

greatkraw

Guest
#19
That doesn't mean it is eternal.
well at the time God made it death did not exist
it is really for you to show that He created it with a usebuy date
 
G

greatkraw

Guest
#20
Well we have information to work from
We read of a New Heaven and a New Earth but I would like to hear from the Greek expert if the word really means REnewed