A woman as a Pastor? Does it make it right if there is a need for pastors?

[AgeofKnowledge]

Ah, I see. Interesting point of view. I would also add that as a Christian theologian raised in a Hellenized city which had already become a center of Christian learning, he received both a good Greek education and a good Christian one. It's for good reasons that he ultimately rose to become the bishop of Caesarea about 312 AD and played a prominent role in the Nicene Council of 325 AD.

His 'magnum opus, the Ecclesiastical History', a narrative history of the Church and Christian community from the Apostolic Age to Eusebius' own time is a must read for any serious aspiring Christian historian.

And when you read through such histories by early church fathers; the contrast between the immutable foundation of orthodoxy passed from the Christ, to the apostles, and to the patriarchs with the raging devil outside that whipped up whirlwinds of fabricated heresies; the contrast with respect to them is striking [emphasis added].

Both men and women propagated and protected the truth and both men and women fabricated and propagated heresies in antiquity.

However, I am not going so far as to say that that 1 Timothy 2:12 (and related scriptures) were referring only to women that adhered with, propagated, and attempted to get leadership positions in the early church from whence to "teach" false doctrine though that was a material factor comprising much of the context behind Paul's instructions and we need to remember it.

When I said that Eysebius was your best case, Iwas referring to the details you cited in your refutation.

Eusebius had a gentleness about him and a positive attitude toward women, which makes anything he says on the subject less subject to a charge of cultural bias.

 

[psalm6819]

 

[WebersHome]

-
According to Luke 13:22-24, Matt 7:13-14, and Matt 22:14; more people
are going to hell than going to heaven; so I'd say that most people can
disregard Paul's regulations prohibiting female pastors, preachers, and
teachers without it making any difference in their future.

=====================================

 

[Utah]

-
According to Luke 13:22-24, Matt 7:13-14, and Matt 22:14; more people
are going to hell than going to heaven; so I'd say that most people can
disregard Paul's regulations prohibiting female pastors, preachers, and
teachers without it making any difference in their future.

=====================================

Paul's regulations. You think God is sending people to hell for nurturing peoples' faith in Jesus?

I need a drink.

 

[Utah]

At least she still has her head. The Religion of Peace on the other hand . . .

 

[WebersHome]

You think God is sending people to hell for nurturing peoples' faith in
Jesus

Paul's regulations are Christ's regulations.

†. 1Cor 14:37 . . If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let
him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the
commandments of The Lord.

†. 1Ths 4:1-2 . .We beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord
Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please
God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments
we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

Therefore, refusal to comply with Paul is all the same as refusing to comply
with Christ, and refusal to comply with Christ is all the same as refusal to
comply with his Father. It's a domino effect all the way to the top.

†. Luke 10:16 . .Whoever listens to you; listens to me. Whoever rejects you;
rejects me. And whoever rejects me; rejects the one who sent me.

Refusal to comply with Christ's regulations is wrath-worthy. Note the
grammatical tense of the word "abides". It's present tense rather than
future, indicating that people refusing to comply with Christ's regulations are
already under the wrath of God-- no delay and no waiting period.

†. John 3:36 . . He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does
not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

FYI: There are people out there in cyberspace la-la land who have been so
conditioned by greeting cards, religious art, Broadway plays, Christmas
carols, and Hollywood movies and nativity scenes that they have lost sight of
the fact that Jesus Christ is not only a religious figure but also a monarch.
Well; a king can't have people in the kingdom refusing to comply with his
edicts, so the first order of business upon Christ's return to rule the world is
a sweep.

†. Matt 13:40-43 . . As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it
will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and
they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do
evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping
and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the
kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

†. Matt 13:47-50 . . The kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the
sea, and gathering fish of every kind; and when it was filled, they drew it up
on the beach; and they sat down, and gathered the good fish into
containers, but the bad they threw away. So it will be at the end of the age;
the angels shall come forth, and take out the wicked from among the
righteous, and will cast them into the furnace of fire; there shall be weeping
and gnashing of teeth.

Compare Psalm 2 where Christ is depicted smashing scofflaws with a rod of
iron like clay pots. (cf. Rev 12:5, and Rev 19:15)

Christ capped one of his kingdom parables with this:

†. Luke 19:27 . . But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign
over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence.

=====================================

 

[Utah]

Jesus Christ will not reject anyone who seeks Him; those aren't my words, they are His. And Jesus certainly will not reject anyone who nurtures someone's faith in Him; those aren't my words, they are His, for nurturing others' faith is His Command.

It blows my mind that our Glorious King showers us will love, grace and has His arms wide open to friendship, yet we, His subjects, put up barriers causing people to stumble, falter and even turn away.

Woe to you scribes and Pharisees!

 

[notuptome]

Jesus Christ will not reject anyone who seeks Him; those aren't my words, they are His. And Jesus certainly will not reject anyone who nurtures someone's faith in Him; those aren't my words, they are His, for nurturing others' faith is His Command.

It blows my mind that our Glorious King showers us will love, grace and has His arms wide open to friendship, yet we, His subjects, put up barriers causing people to stumble, falter and even turn away.

Woe to you scribes and Pharisees!

Scripture says that nobody seeks Him. Romans 3:11 He seeks us because He loves us not that we loved Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[WebersHome]

-

Jesus Christ will not reject anyone who seeks Him; those aren't my words,
they are His.

The words about which you speak are located in the gospel of John.

†. John 6:37 . . All that the Father gives me shall come to me, and the one
who comes to me I will certainly not cast out.

Words and grammar convey information. However, they are quite useless for
that purpose when people pay no attention to them.

According to the syntax of Christ's statement: his acceptance of people who
come to him is limited to those whom Christ's Father gives him. All the rest
are rejected no matter how hard, nor how sincere, they seek him. This is a
divine protocol that cannot be circumvented no matter how sneaky that scofflaws
are at trying to get past it. No; it's sneak-proof, Devil-proof, intellectual-proof,
and sophistry-proof.

========================================

 

[WebersHome]

-
The wrath of God is interesting. For example:

†. Isa 13:9 . . Behold, the day of The Lord comes-- cruel; with both wrath
and fierce anger

The Hebrew word for "wrath" in that statement is 'ebrah (eb-raw') which
indicates an outburst of passion. In other words: the wrath of God won't be
weeping big wet crocodile tears while it's slamming the dead at the Great
White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15; no, they will be terminated
with extreme prejudice; viz: their judgment will be administered with choler.
(cf. Isa 63:1-6, Rev 19:15)

Webster's defines "fierce" as a behavior exhibited by humans and animals
that inspires terror because of the wild and menacing aspect of fury in
attack. Ferocity is an aspect commonly seen among roaring, snarling lions
savagely attacking prey. There's neither sportsmanship nor sympathy in
ferocity; only sheer terror, brutality, and blood lust.

"cruel" is defined as: disposed to inflict pain or suffering; viz: devoid of
humane feelings

†. Heb 10:27 . . A certain fearful expectation of . . . fiery indignation

"fiery indignation" is quite a bit more severe than ordinary indignation. It
speaks of someone who is seriously ticked off; and so angry that they're
actually red in the face.

There are people out there in pews all around the world who have been so
coddled by sappy versions of Christianity that they have no concept of the
magnitude of the lethal tsunami of rage and violence coming their way to
get them.

Another interesting aspect of the wrath of God is the person appointed to
administer it-- none other than the sweet little baby away in a manger.

†. John 5:22-23 . .The Father judges no one, but has committed all
judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the
Father.

†. Acts 17:31 . . For God has set a day when he will judge the world with
justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men
by raising him from the dead.

†. Rev 19:15 . . He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treads the
winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

You know all those horrors depicted in the book of Revelation? Jesus Christ
has been appointed to supervise every one of them.

†. Rev 1:1 . .The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his
servants.

=========================================

 

[VioletReigns]

.............................................................

 

[MarcR]

Even if we who believe that God does not want women to preach in the assembly are correct;

It is the role of the Holy Spirit; and NOT of believers to convict of sin.

In any case:

Ro 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
KJV


If a believer does anything that we believe is contrary to Scripture, we are responsible to share our understanding.

If a believer's (mis)understanding of Scripture results in disobedience; that disobedience will effect his/her rewards NOT his/her eternal destination.

 

[WebersHome]

-

Titus 3:9 . . But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions,
and fighting about the law; for they are unprofitable and self
righteous.

It is almost humorous to watch people quote Paul's writings as weapons to
suppress Paul's writings; viz: Paul vs Paul. (chuckle) The clash of the titans;
except that in this case, the titans clashing with each other are both Paul.

The apostle of Jesus Christ who wrote Titus 3:9 is the self same apostle of
Jesus Christ who wrote the passages below:

†. 1Cor 11:3 . . But I would have you know, that the head of every man is
Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is
God.

†. 1Cor 11:7-9 . . For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch
as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was
the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

†. 1Tim 2:11-13 . . Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I
suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be
in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

†. 1Cor 14:34-35 . . Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is
not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under
obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask
their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

The 14th chapter of Romans forbids debating about gray areas. But this
issue is not gray, no; it is clearly a black and white issue that some folk are
trying very desperately to make gray.

This issue is also Christ's issue because Paul's commandments are Christ's
commandments.

†. 1Cor 14:37 . . If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let
him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the
commandments of The Lord.

†. 1Ths 4:1-2 . .We beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord
Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please
God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments
we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

Therefore, refusal to comply with Paul is all the same as refusal to comply
with Christ, and refusal to comply with Christ is all the same as refusal to
comply with his Father. It's a ripple effect all the way to the top.

†. Luke 10:16 . .Whoever listens to you; listens to me. Whoever rejects you;
rejects me. And whoever rejects me; rejects the one who sent me.

===========================================

 

[kennethcadwell]

Even if we who believe that God does not want women to preach in the assembly are correct;

It is the role of the Holy Spirit; and NOT of believers to convict of sin.

In any case:

Ro 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
KJV


If a believer does anything that we believe is contrary to Scripture, we are responsible to share our understanding.

If a believer's (mis)understanding of Scripture results in disobedience; that disobedience will effect his/her rewards NOT his/her eternal destination.

That depends on the extent of the disobedience, and rather or not they come back in repentance.

Jesus says the disobedient will be appointed a place with the unbelievers. (Luke 12:46)

Hebrews says the disobedient will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Hebrews 3:18-19, 4:6)

The whole epistle of Jude is speaking of salvation of eternal life through Jesus Christ, and Jude shows those once saved can become blotted out of the book. (Jude 1:5 cross reverence Exodus 32:33)

 

[MarcR]

-


It is almost humorous to watch people quote Paul's writings as weapons to
suppress Paul's writings; viz: Paul vs Paul. (chuckle) The clash of the titans;
except that in this case, the titans clashing with each other are both Paul.

The apostle of Jesus Christ who wrote Titus 3:9 is the self same apostle of
Jesus Christ who wrote the passages below:

†. 1Cor 11:3 . . But I would have you know, that the head of every man is
Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is
God.

†. 1Cor 11:7-9 . . For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch
as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was
the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

†. 1Tim 2:11-13 . . Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I
suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be
in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

†. 1Cor 14:34-35 . . Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is
not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under
obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask
their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

The 14th chapter of Romans forbids debating about gray areas. But this
issue is not gray, no; it is clearly a black and white issue that some folk are
trying very desperately to make gray.

This issue is also Christ's issue because Paul's commandments are Christ's
commandments.

†. 1Cor 14:37 . . If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let
him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the
commandments of The Lord.

†. 1Ths 4:1-2 . .We beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord
Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please
God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments
we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

Therefore, refusal to comply with Paul is all the same as refusal to comply
with Christ, and refusal to comply with Christ is all the same as refusal to
comply with his Father. It's a ripple effect all the way to the top.

†. Luke 10:16 . .Whoever listens to you; listens to me. Whoever rejects you;
rejects me. And whoever rejects me; rejects the one who sent me.

===========================================

Lighten up my friend!

When believers respond to each other in what appears as 'righteous' indignation; a little humor can refocus our understanding of our own importance.

 

[didymos]

Mais oui: tais-toi et sois belle.

 

[VioletReigns]

Tais-toi!

 

[Utah]

-


The words about which you speak are located in the gospel of John.

†. John 6:37 . . All that the Father gives me shall come to me, and the one
who comes to me I will certainly not cast out.

Words and grammar convey information. However, they are quite useless for
that purpose when people pay no attention to them.

According to the syntax of Christ's statement: his acceptance of people who
come to him is limited to those whom Christ's Father gives him. All the rest
are rejected no matter how hard, nor how sincere, they seek him. This is a
divine protocol that cannot be circumvented no matter how sneaky that scofflaws
are at trying to get past it. No; it's sneak-proof, Devil-proof, intellectual-proof,
and sophistry-proof.

========================================

Friend, you speak rather over-confidently that you are indeed saved. I would think someone with your views would be more humble, understanding that you, in fact, may be such a person who seeks God in all sincerity but may actually be turned away. I, on the other hand, see God's invitation being open to all people who desire a relationship with Him in Jesus Christ.

I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

 

[Utah]

.............................................................
View attachment 98825

I'm not self righteous. I made a mistake once because I wanted to know how it felt.

 

[WebersHome]

-

I, on the other hand, see God's invitation being open to all people who
desire a relationship with Him in Jesus Christ.

The invitation is indeed to all.

†. Rev 22:17 . .The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears
say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him
take the free gift of the water of life.

But nevertheless; according to the syntax of Christ's statement as per John
6:37; his acceptance of people is limited to those whom his Father gives
him. All the rest are rejected no matter how hard, nor how sincere, they
seek him. This is a divine protocol that cannot be circumvented no matter
how sneaky that scofflaws are at trying to get past it. No; it's sneak-proof,
Devil-proof, intellectual-proof, disbeliever-proof, and Utah-proof.

Friend

I do not care to be the friend of someone who insinuates that Jesus Christ
doesn't know what he's talking about.

==================================