Abide in Christ

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Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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So you are saying that Jesus fatalistically chooses people? Why does Jesus choose people? Do you believe that Jesus is omniscient?
I believe in weird things. I don't believe Jesus fatalistically chooses people and i don't believe that believers choose Christ either; I believe salvation is creation once again. God creates everything anew by separating day from night.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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I believe in weird things. I don't believe Jesus fatalistically chooses people and i don't believe that believers choose Christ either; I believe salvation is creation once again. God creates everything anew by separating day from night.
You certainly do believe in weird things. ;)
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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They are saved by the blood of Christ just as every human is. How can you hold an infant accountable for failing to repent and believe the gospel when they are incapable of doing so? :eek:
Aren't they sinners too?

If they don't have to confess their sins and repent and believe the gospel to be saved, then there is something peculiar about them. Jesus said we all have to be changed and be like them to be righteous, right?

Matt 18:3“Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
 

mailmandan

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That’s how Jesus characterized conversion, which pictures faith as the helpless, trusting, dependence of little children who have no resources or achievements of their own to offer or commend themselves with. The most trusting people in the world are children, which have not acquired obstructions, like advanced education, false religion and exposure to philosophies of men.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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That’s how Jesus characterized conversion, which pictures faith as the helpless, trusting, dependence of little children who have no resources or achievements of their own to offer or commend themselves with. The most trusting people in the world are children, which have not acquired obstructions, like advanced education, false religion and exposure to philosophies of men.
True. Generally, Jesus characterized salvation in figurative speech but not in this case.

When Jesus says, "if your righteousness does not surpass that of the Pharisees.......", we know what He means. It doesn't mean that you become like a Pharisee and even act more righteous than them nor does it mean that the Pharisees are righteous people. This has some meaning behind it.

IMO

When Jesus says, "unless you change and become like children......", He means it. Children are righteous of God which means they are saved. So when Jesus says you should be like them to be saved, you are actually required to be like them because they are righteous.

Children don't hate and therefore, they have fulfilled all the requirement. Loving one another is all that is required of us and this is faith. It is never about choosing God or God choosing some people and causing them to have faith and punishing those He did not cause to have faith.

Faith is not about who ascends to heaven or who descends to hell like most of you have turned it:

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” b (that is, to bring Christ down) 7“or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’ ” c (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say?“The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” d that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
 

mailmandan

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So it’s about “humility and trusting” in regards to little children. Are you still confused about Matthew 18:3?
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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So it’s about “humility and trusting” in regards to little children. Are you still confused about Matthew 18:3?
Nope. It's about love. The one who loves has fulfilled all the requirements. In any case, love beareth all things.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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True. Generally, Jesus characterized salvation in figurative speech but not in this case.

When Jesus says, "if your righteousness does not surpass that of the Pharisees.......", we know what He means. It doesn't mean that you become like a Pharisee and even act more righteous than them nor does it mean that the Pharisees are righteous people. This has some meaning behind it.

IMO

When Jesus says, "unless you change and become like children......", He means it. Children are righteous of God which means they are saved. So when Jesus says you should be like them to be saved, you are actually required to be like them because they are righteous.

Children don't hate and therefore, they have fulfilled all the requirement. Loving one another is all that is required of us and this is faith. It is never about choosing God or God choosing some people and causing them to have faith and punishing those He did not cause to have faith.

Faith is not about who ascends to heaven or who descends to hell like most of you have turned it:

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” b (that is, to bring Christ down) 7“or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’ ” c (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say?“The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” d that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
He still misunderstand salvation through faith in Christ., which you confuse with man’s performance. In regards to the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, which consisted of seeking the acceptance of God by their careful adherence to their rules and traditions and the law.. So what righteousness is Jesus talking about? Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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1 John 4:7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.


(y)(y)
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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He still misunderstand salvation through faith in Christ., which you confuse with man’s performance. In regards to the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, which consisted of seeking the acceptance of God by their careful adherence to their rules and traditions and the law.. So what righteousness is Jesus talking about? Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.
And that righteousness found in God by faith is not what you and many others teach. That righteousness and that faith is love for one another and nothing more.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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And that righteousness found in God by faith is not what you and many others teach. That righteousness and that faith is love for one another and nothing more.
No, it’s not what you think. The righteousness which is of God by faith is faith in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Faith is the cause (Ephesians 2:8) and love is the effect. (Romans 5:5) You continue to teach that we will be saved based on the merits of our best efforts to love/perform acts of charity etc.. and you mistakenly call that salvation through faith. You have crossed over into salvation by works.
 

FollowtheShepherd

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
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John 14:23-26, " 23 Jesus answered him, If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. 25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."

John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My Word he shall never see death at all.”

John 5:28-29, " 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

John 12: 48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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No, it’s not what you think. The righteousness which is of God by faith is faith in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Faith is the cause (Ephesians 2:8) and love is the effect. (Romans 5:5) You continue to teach that we will be saved based on the merits of our best efforts to love/perform acts of charity etc.. and you mistakenly call that salvation through faith. You have crossed over into salvation by works.
Not really. Salvation is not what we do or even think, it is what Christ already did.

I said and i've always said that love is how we abide in Christ not how we are saved. Take note once again.

Faith is not the cause for love because love is not expressed through faith but faith is expressed through love:

Gal 5:6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. All that matters is faith, expressed through love.

And if you want to know how far you are, use the example i have given time and again. Children are saved, not because they draw mental pictures of Christ on the cross and not because they are emotional about the gospel but truly, they have faith in Christ.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Not really. Salvation is not what we do or even think, it is what Christ already did.

I said and i've always said that love is how we abide in Christ not how we are saved. Take note once again.

Faith is not the cause for love because love is not expressed through faith but faith is expressed through love:

Gal 5:6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. All that matters is faith, expressed through love.

And if you want to know how far you are, use the example i have given time and again. Children are saved, not because they draw mental pictures of Christ on the cross and not because they are emotional about the gospel but truly, they have faith in Christ.
We are saved through faith based on the merits of Christ finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28) So you believe that we remain saved by love, which is “type 2 work salvation.” Faith expressed through love does not mean that we are saved by faith + love. Salvation through faith in Christ is not about drawing mental pictures of Christ on the cross or a temporary, shallow belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. It’s also not enough to believe “mental assent” that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ “happened.” We must also trust in the death burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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No, it’s not what you think. The righteousness which is of God by faith is faith in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Faith is the cause (Ephesians 2:8) and love is the effect. (Romans 5:5) You continue to teach that we will be saved based on the merits of our best efforts to love/perform acts of charity etc.. and you mistakenly call that salvation through faith. You have crossed over into salvation by works.
If a person came to you with material need let's say 1000$, you do not give them because you believe Christ died for your sins, this is pride, just give out of compassion. The latter is the kind of faith the scripture teaches, not the first one.

Rom 10: 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’b (that is, to bring Christ down) 7or, ‘Who will descend into the Abyss?’c (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).”
 

CherieR

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
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Ezekiel 18:29 - But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right? But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?

Ezekiel 33:13 - When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his OWN righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. Did you read that? "If he trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS." This is the heart of the matter here. This is describing a righteousness which is by the law rather than that which is by faith.

*The New Testament states in Romans 10:3 - "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that BELIEVES.

As James Fawcett Brown points out - righteous--one apparently such; as in Matthew 9:13, "I came not to call the righteous," that is, those who fancy themselves righteous. First please notice the underlined words "his righteousness" meaning that the "righteous" turns from his righteousness. That is his OWN righteousness.
That is neat mailmandan, I have not really noticed that before in Ezekiel. Thanks for sharing.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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We are saved through faith based on the merits of Christ finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28) So you believe that we remain saved by love, which is “type 2 work salvation.” Faith expressed through love does not mean that we are saved by faith + love. Salvation through faith in Christ is not about drawing mental pictures of Christ on the cross or a temporary, shallow belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. It’s also not enough to believe “mental assent” that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ “happened.” We must also trust in the death burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation
Well, all that is found in love:

1 Cor 13:7 (love) It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Again, a child has faith in Christ and trusts in Christ's work not because they are emotional about the gospel or draw those mental pictures of Jesus nor do anything you are proposing here.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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IMO
God is spirit, we can not behold His shape and form so we can not draw any mental pictures. Anyone claiming to love or trust or have faith or see God has definitely broken the second and the most extensive commandment. The only possible way to love or trust or have faith or see God or know God is by loving other people who we can behold.

Deut 4:15So since you saw no form of any kind on the day the LORD spoke to you out of the fire at Horeb, be careful 16that you do not act corruptly and make an idol for yourselves of any form or shape, whether in the likeness of a male or female,

The gospel is not preached to us so that we can draw mental pictures of God but the gospel is a mirror which we ought to be looking against our own deeds. We don't read it and then start doing but we start doing it and then confirm what we are doing by it.

James 1:22Be doers of the word, and not hearers only. Otherwise, you are deceiving yourselves. 23For anyone who hears the word but does not carry it out is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror, 24and after observing himself goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like.