Acts 15 proves that gentiles have never been under the law of Moses

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crossnote

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Nov 24, 2012
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This is really interesting, because scriptures show that circumcision was for a sign, not for salvation for either a Jew or Gentile, but faithfulness. In Romans Paul uses Abraham as an example.

Romans 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Romans 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Romans 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Romans 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

I believe that God has always required faith.
Yes for salvation' it always has been by grace thru faith, but to be in the Mosaic Covenant it required circumcision.
Btw, I haven't met any Christian men yet who got physically circumcised since becoming a believer, I mean really, if they think they are under the Mosaic law...be my guest.
 

prove-all

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May 16, 2014
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It was never about the animals or the laws themselves it was about who they pointed to..
[Obey my voice], and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people

22For I spake not unto your fathers, [nor commanded them] in the day that I brought them
out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:


23But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be
my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.



That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the Lord to walk therein,
as their fathers did keep it, or not.
 
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L

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Yes for salvation' it always has been by grace thru faith, but to be in the Mosaic Covenant it required circumcision.
Btw, I haven't met any Christian men yet who got physically circumcised since becoming a believer, I mean really, if they think they are under the Mosaic law...be my guest.
Crossnote,

That was basically my point. I'm trying to figure out where the idea is coming from that would indicate that I'm telling anyone to be physically circumcised?
 

DP

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The bottom line still is, that even in NT Scripture like Acts 15, 1 Timonthy 1, and Galatians 5, that reveals a portion of God's laws that our Lord Jesus did NOT nail to His cross are still in effect upon those who do works of the flesh.

Our Lord Jesus did not nail all of God's laws to His cross; this is why the NT Scripture specifically says 'ordinances in the law'

Col 2:14
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
KJV

Eph 2:14-15
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
KJV



The law of Moses was divided into judgments, statutes, ordinances, and commandments.

The Ten Commandments still stand for the Christian nations just as it did for OT Israel. Jesus did not nail that to His cross. This is why even the U.S. Supreme Court building court room door entrance has the carving of Moses holding the tablets, and why many U.S. court rooms have a copy of The Decalogue hanging on its walls.

So I have a question for you brethren who have a difficult time understanding this...

Do you go to the court room to worship our Heavenly Father through His Son Jesus Christ???

No, you do not. But when that court is providing our society a service by administration of law upon wickedness and the lawless, then where does that operation originate? It comes directly from God's laws in the historical Christian nations, which why those Ten Commandment representations hang throughout court houses in the U.S., and in other historic Christian nations.

Now groups like the ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union) constantly have tried to have representations of The Commandments removed from public court buildings and property in violation to the 1st Ammendment of the U.S. Constitution, and they have not totally been unsuccessful in that. So don't you understand why those Leftists want to do that? Those do that for the same reasons false prophets and preachers that are ignorant try to remove knowledge of God's laws among His people under Christ Jesus.

Some preachers even get Apostle Paul's teaching on the matter completely backwards, saying that all of God's law is now dead, when that was never... what Paul taught. What Paul taught about those in Christ in relation to the law was that WE... are dead to the law, IF we walk by The Spirit (Gal.5). Paul said the law was good, if used lawfully, and that the law was not made for the righteous man, but for the wicked and lawless (1 Tim.1).

Are the wicked still dwelling in this world, do they still try to live lawlessly? Yes, and that's why God's laws are not dead.

Not only that, but God gave a prophecy through Jacob to his sons, of what would befall them in the "last days", in Genesis 49. The role of lawgiver would not depart from Judah until Shiloh (Jesus Christ) come, and then unto Him (Jesus) shall the gathering of the people be.

The ordinances involved things like various washings, ceremonial and sacrificial ritual, anything dealing with blood ritual, religious ordinances involving the Levitical priesthood, etc. It ended all things involving religious practice in order for Christ's Salvation to manifest. It especially ended seeking to obtain Salvation by trying to keep God's law.

So until many brethren here begin understanding what all God's laws contain, and realize what the "ordinances" were that our Lord Jesus nailed to His cross, then you will ever be fighting against even the 'idea' of law established in the historic Christian nations in order for His people to control wickedness and evil. And a person that thinks the law is bad shows their ignorance in fellowship with the lawless, which is what anarchy and an anarchist is.
 
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The bottom line still is, that even in NT Scripture like Acts 15, 1 Timonthy 1, and Galatians 5, that reveals a portion of God's laws that our Lord Jesus did NOT nail to His cross are still in effect upon those who do works of the flesh.
All of the law has been nullified. Moses' law was old law for an old (non-existent) covenant. Your many words won't change that.

This is the law that will judge men.

The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. And this is the judgment: that the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone who practices evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds be exposed. But the one who practices the truth comes to the light, in order that his deeds may be revealed, that they are done in God. John 3:18-21
 

DP

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All of the law has been nullified. Moses' law was old law for an old (non-existent) covenant. Your many words won't change that.

This is the law that will judge men.
The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. And this is the judgment: that the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone who practices evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds be exposed. But the one who practices the truth comes to the light, in order that his deeds may be revealed, that they are done in God. John 3:18-21
Then you are for the 'lawless', anarchist, if you go against what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Timothy 1 and Galatians 5.

No where does Apostle Paul ever say the law is dead. For those in Christ Jesus, we are to consider ourselves... dead with Christ's crucifixion and alive in the Spirit per His resurrection, and thus dead to the law, not the other way around.

Those you've heeded have misled you.

My only hope for you under Christ Jesus now, is that you listen to The Holy Spirit guide in the difference between righteousness and sin do you don't fall back and put yourself back under God's laws, for His laws against wickedness are still very much active today.
 
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Then you are for the 'lawless', anarchist, if you go against what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Timothy 1 and Galatians 5.

No where does Apostle Paul ever say the law is dead. For those in Christ Jesus, we are to consider ourselves... dead with Christ's crucifixion and alive in the Spirit per His resurrection, and thus dead to the law, not the other way around.
Love and faith are not lawless. They are the supreme law.

Paul said we in Christ are dead to the law. Laws don't have authority over dead people. Paul also said the law has been rendered powerless (abolished).

For [Christ] is our peace, who has made both [Jew and gentile] one, destroying the middle wall of the barrier, the enmity, in his flesh; having abolished the law (nomos) of commandments (entoles) contained in ordinances (dogmas); that of the two he should make in himself one new man, so making peace. Ephesians 2:14-15

abolish
G2673 καταργέω katargeo
1. to make entirely idle

GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON of the NEW TESTAMENT BASED ON SEMANTIC DOMAINS
76.26 καταργέωc: to render ineffective the power or force of something—‘to invalidate, to abolish, to cause not to function.’ τὸν νόμον τῶν ἐντολῶν ἐν δόγμασιν καταργήσας ‘to abolish the Law of commandments consisting of regulations’ Eph 2:15;​
 

DP

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Sep 27, 2015
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Love and faith are not lawless. They are the supreme law.

Paul said we in Christ are dead to the law. Laws don't have authority over dead people. Paul also said the law has been rendered powerless (abolished).

For [Christ] is our peace, who has made both [Jew and gentile] one, destroying the middle wall of the barrier, the enmity, in his flesh; having abolished the law (nomos) of commandments (entoles) contained in ordinances (dogmas); that of the two he should make in himself one new man, so making peace. Ephesians 2:14-15

abolish
G2673 καταργέω katargeo
1. to make entirely idle

GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON of the NEW TESTAMENT BASED ON SEMANTIC DOMAINS
76.26 καταργέωc: to render ineffective the power or force of something—‘to invalidate, to abolish, to cause not to function.’ τὸν νόμον τῶν ἐντολῶν ἐν δόγμασιν καταργήσας ‘to abolish the Law of commandments consisting of regulations’ Eph 2:15;​
'Ordinances' in the law. Yes, and that's what you need to do more Bible study on, instead of treating that to mean all of God's laws.

See, according to the way you've been obviously taught, or are thinking about it, even God's commandment in Leviticus 19 to love thy neighbor as thyself has been abolished by our Lord Jesus upon His cross.
 
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'Ordinances' in the law. Yes, and that's what you need to do more Bible study on, instead of treating that to mean all of God's laws.

See, according to the way you've been obviously taught, or are thinking about it, even God's commandment in Leviticus 19 to love thy neighbor as thyself has been abolished by our Lord Jesus upon His cross.
Ordinances is just a silly little distinction that you make, and which leads you astray. It's just like the doctrine that the law was broken into 3 parts and only two of those parts were done away with at the cross. That derives from the Talmud, not the bible.

Jesus established new law that derives from Leviticus 19:18 and Deuteronomy 6:5.
 

DP

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Sep 27, 2015
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Ordinances is just a silly little distinction that you make, and which leads you astray. It's just like the doctrine that the law was broken into 3 parts and only two of those parts were done away with at the cross. That derives from the Talmud, not the bible.

Jesus established new law that derives from Leviticus 19:18 and Deuteronomy 6:5.
Dream on, is all I can say.

Gen 26:5
5 Because that Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.
KJV
 
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Years after the Jerusalem council, Paul again traveled to Jerusalem where he testified before James and the elders of all things that GOD had done among the gentiles.

And when they heard this, they began to glorify God. And they said to [Paul], “You see, brother, how many ten thousands there are among the Jews who have believed, and they are all zealous adherents of the law. Acts 21:20

As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and decided that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. Acts 21:25 Acts 21:25
 
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Per the previous post, if the believing gentiles didn't follow the law of Moses, what did they follow?



rhetorical question, of course. :rolleyes:
 

DP

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Sep 27, 2015
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Years after the Jerusalem council, Paul again traveled to Jerusalem where he testified before James and the elders of all things that GOD had done among the gentiles.
And when they heard this, they began to glorify God. And they said to [Paul], “You see, brother, how many ten thousands there are among the Jews who have believed, and they are all zealous adherents of the law. Acts 21:20

As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and decided that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. Acts 21:25 Acts 21:25
Well, you left out quite a bit of Scripture that shows what was going on there.

Acts 21:18-25
18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.

This is Apostle James speaking to Paul:


20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, "Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
KJV

That was James speaking all that to Paul, including that 25th verse. That shows nothing changed from what the Apostles at Jerusalem had commanded the Gentiles to keep per Acts 15.

If you look at Acts 21:21 there more closely, you'll see why James and those Jewish elders (that were believers) were in such a stir from Paul's teaching. They claimed Paul had been teaching believing JEWS AMONG THE GENTILES to not heed God's laws anymore.

Do I believe Apostle Paul was really... intending to do that upon the Jewish believers among the Gentile believers? No. Paul did not teach against keeping God's laws anywhere in his Epistles.Paul taught that none shall be justified or saved by keeping the law, which is different than saying not to try and keep them at all. The believing Jews among the Gentiles evidently thought Paul was telling them to not... keep the law, period.

That's apparently how the Jewish believers among the Gentiles misunderstood Paul's teaching. The dispute that began in Acts 15 was different, because 'some of the Jewish believers' (not Paul), were teaching Gentiles had be circumcised to be saved in Christ. And the conclusion of the Apostles at Jerusalem for what the Gentiles were to follow was the same as this verse 25 here.

Then James suggested that Paul along with those other four Jews perform that purification rite per the law, as an act of fellowship with the Jewish Church at Jerusalem. And that Paul did, which is perfectly fine, since Apostle Paul himself was a Jew born of the tribe of Benjamin.

For one born of Jewish heritage, even as a believer on Christ Jesus, it is perfectly fine for them to keep God's laws. They are NOT... to seek to be justified in Christ by doing that though, because Christ's Salvation is NOT by following law, but instead a free gift by His Grace for those who believe. Nor are they to teach Gentiles that they must keep God's laws to be saved in Christ Jesus. It's that simple.

The reason why it is still OK for believing Jews to keep God's laws, is because God promised a lawgiver would not depart from Judah all the way up to the time of Christ's 2nd coming (Gen.49:10; "Shiloh" represents our Lord Jesus there). Thus our Heavenly Father has ordained His laws to remain in their hands and responsibility until Jesus returns.

Thus, in my posts on this matter, I have had no... arguments with those above principles.

Instead, my purpose (even as a Gentile believer on Christ Jesus), has been to help educate regarding why God's laws (portion that Christ did not nail to His cross) are still in effect today, as many of them are established in the societies of the western nations, and that since those western nations as a majority believed on Jesus Christ very quickly after His death and resurrection, and He was preached to them (Britain being the first on a national scale to accept The Gospel and put away their old paganism). As a result, the early history of the western Christian nations implemented many things directly from God's laws in the OT to govern Christian society. They, like Apostle Paul, well understood how portions of God's laws are for controlling the wicked and lawless, like Paul showed in 1 Timothy 1.

Brethren would do well to research the history of Blue Laws that used to be established in the early American colonies and early history of the United States. In many parts of the U.S., non-essential businesses were required to close on Sundays, which was considered as a Christian sabbath, an idea they got directly from God's laws in the OT. Those were Christians in the majority who ordained that for themselves and their communities. And of course the lawless and wicked really hated all that.
 
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Well, you left out quite a bit of Scripture that shows what was going on there.
I left it out because it doesn't have anything to do with verse 25. It's already been shown that that verse was the Jerusalem council's decision that believing gentiles had no obligation to observe the law of Moses. Gentiles had never been put under that law, and the Jerusalem church refused to add that burden to them so as not to tempt GOD, yet now we have people like yourself who teach that gentiles believers (or any gentiles for that matter) are under the law.

The context of Acts 21:21-24 is clear. Jews in Jerusalem felt threatened by Paul's teachings, so the purifications were done in an attempt to disarm the fears and accusations so that his life wouldn't be in danger. Agabus from Jerusalem had already warned Paul that his life would be in danger in Jerusalem (Acts 21:10-11) because he knew his doctrine diametrically opposed the law-keeping mindset in Jerusalem that was still ruled by pharisees. It was the same mindset that opposed Christ.
 
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DP

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I left it out because it doesn't have anything to do with verse 25. It's already been shown that that verse was the Jerusalem council's decision that believing gentiles had no obligation to observe the law of Moses. Gentiles had never been put under that law, and the Jerusalem church refused to add that burden to them so as not to tempt GOD, yet now we have people like yourself who teach that gentiles believers (or any gentiles for that matter) are under the law.
You are terribly wrong about what I teach from God's Word. And it's very apparent that your argument hasn't garnered as much support as you wanted, so now you've stooped downward to personal attacks. Therefore, I have no more time for you.
 
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You are terribly wrong about what I teach from God's Word. And it's very apparent that your argument hasn't garnered as much support as you wanted, so now you've stooped downward to personal attacks. Therefore, I have no more time for you.
I'm not looking for support. I put this OP here as witness against those who claim gentiles are under any part of the law of Moses. As many people as there are around here who are fixated on the law, I'm surprised there aren't more comments against what I wrote. But then again, it's hard to argue against facts and the clear witness of scripture with man's tradition and opinion.

And it wasn't an 'attack' against you; it's my perception of you. Beware lest you repeat the predictable pattern of those toppled from their soapbox by opposing ideas, who accuse of personal attacks and stomp out of the room slamming the door.
 
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Jewish Encyclopedia article regarding the Jerusalem Council's decision in Acts 15 that believing gentiles should respect the Noahide laws.

Jewish Encyclopedia: New Testament

For great as was the success of Barnabas and Paul in the heathen world, the authorities in Jerusalem insisted upon circumcision as the condition of admission of members into the church, until, on the initiative of Peter, and of James, the head of the Jerusalem church, it was agreed that acceptance of the Noachian Laws — namely, regarding avoidance of idolatry, fornication, and the eating of flesh cut from a living animal — should be demanded of the heathen desirous of entering the Church.
 
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Jewish Encyclopedia article regarding the Jerusalem Council's decision in Acts 15 that believing gentiles should respect the Noahide laws.

Jewish Encyclopedia: Saul of Tarsus

According to Acts, Paul began working along the traditional Jewish line of proselytizing in the various synagogues where the proselytes of the gate [e.g., Exodus 20:9] and the Jews met; and only because he failed to win the Jews to his views, encountering strong opposition and persecution from them, did he turn to the Gentile world after he had agreed at a convention with the apostles at Jerusalem to admit the Gentiles into the Church only as proselytes of the gate, that is, after their acceptance of the Noachian laws (Acts 15:1–31)[/B].
 
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​Jesus said:

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Matthew 23:15

The pharisees continued to seek proselytes of righteousness (i.e., become circumcised and observe the law of Moses) during the early days of the church while they were still in power in Jerusalem.

Some of those who had believed from the party of the Pharisees stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to command them to observe the law of Moses! Acts 15:5

And some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom prescribed by Moses, you cannot be saved.” Acts 15:1

... we [the apostles and elders of the church in Jerusalem] have heard that some have gone out from among us—to whom we gave no orders—and have thrown you into confusion by words upsetting your minds, Acts 15:24

​I [Paul] am astonished that you [the church in Galatia] are turning away so quickly from the one who called you by the grace of Christ to a different gospel, not that there is a different gospel, except there are some who are disturbing you and wanting to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim a gospel to you contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let him be accursed! As we said before, and now I say again, if anyone is proclaiming a gospel to you contrary to what you have received, let him be accursed! Galatians 1:6-9