Acts 21:21 Did Paul teach to abandon Moses?

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Blade

Active member
Nov 19, 2019
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43
#41
"new covenant people'? God said it in Jeremiah not man. So.. He did do exactly what He said. So.. what was the old covenant? That was made between God and Israel.. Abraham Issac and Jacob. God kept His word.. a new covenant and He also did put His laws IN mans hearts. Go for it.. post what exactly was the OLD covenant. That law alone so much was tied to the temple of which there is not here any more.

So you know Yeshua as lord? Hello new covenant.
 
Mar 21, 2009
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#42
Isaiah 51:4
Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.

This is about the salvation that Jesus Christ would bring and it would be in the heart of all nations and all people. It is not that hard.
The Law of Christ in the heart of the believer is more demanding than the Law of Moses. We know the difference between envy and eating pork. It's not that hard. The Holy Spirit is in us and leads and convicts us of watching something we should not watch even though there is no Law in Moses about it we know which Law of Christ we are violating and we repent and quit watching that garbage.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
3,275
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#43
"new covenant people'? God said it in Jeremiah not man. So.. He did do exactly what He said. So.. what was the old covenant? That was made between God and Israel.. Abraham Issac and Jacob. God kept His word.. a new covenant and He also did put His laws IN mans hearts. Go for it.. post what exactly was the OLD covenant. That law alone so much was tied to the temple of which there is not here any more.

So you know Yeshua as lord? Hello new covenant.
God never puts any doctrine we are to follow in only one place in scripture, and
God put the new covenant in BOTH Jerimiah and Ezekiel. New Covenant people believe they do not need any action to follow what is put in their hearts, but in Ezekiel it is made clear that action is required. So Ezekiel is ignored by these so called Christians who believe that what God puts in the heart and mind does not lead to action.

We are told in the NT you look to without learning from the OT as a new covenant person, we are told to study the temple and what the OT tells us for it is a physical way of explaining God. So the new covenant people see the physical without learning how it relates to the spiritual. They use the new covenant to excuse their blindness.

Galatians makes it clear what of the physical that God used to point to the spiritual we are to toss out as Paul explains how cutting foreskin worked. New Covenant people use this as demons do, using it to oppose God. They even say the ten commandments are too physical to learn from, they do not see it as a way to express love as is the core of the law.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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#44
If you believed in scripture as coming from God, you wouldn't ask this question. Scripture tells us that NEVER has the blood of animals atoned for sin, but it tells us that as soon as evil came to us God gave blood on the altar to atone.

Because God has never been part of the occult and gnostics as most new covenant people are, God gave a physical symbol of His blood. Evidently, in your mind it is only the animal blood that God hated that was given, you don't believe God when God said it was the blood He gave on the altar. God uses physical acts to mirror the kingdom, like the ten commandments to mirror love. Bew covenant people often deny the ten commandments, also, as too physical.

New covenant people quote Jerimiah not Ezekiel to tell of the new covenant because Jerimiah doesn't mention anything physical while Ezekiel talks of actually doing what God asks of us.

I would bet you follow through with this error in thinking to believe the new covenant tells us that God is only in our spirit, God never acts literally.
So which is it?

Do you literally follow THE LAW of animal sacrifice?

Or do you NOT LITERALLY follow the law of animal sacrifice?


DO you instead REALIZE that LAW of animal sacrifice was FULFILLED by Christ?


The same thing that you accuse others of YOU YOURSELF don't do, but explain away. That's called being a hypocrite.

If you are going to follow the Law and try to get everyone else to follow it as well then follow the whole thing. Don't just cherry pick your favorite parts.


If you are not going to follow the whole law then it is best to understand WHY you don't INSTEAD of merely pushing your opinions of which laws are still in effect and which aren't. But accusing people of not treating the whole bible as Gods Truth is dishonest when you yourself don't treat it that way either. In a literal sense.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
3,275
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#45
So which is it?

Do you literally follow THE LAW of animal sacrifice?

Or do you NOT LITERALLY follow the law of animal sacrifice?


DO you instead REALIZE that LAW of animal sacrifice was FULFILLED by Christ?


The same thing that you accuse others of YOU YOURSELF don't do, but explain away. That's called being a hypocrite.

If you are going to follow the Law and try to get everyone else to follow it as well then follow the whole thing. Don't just cherry pick your favorite parts.

If you are not going to follow the whole law then it is best to understand WHY you don't INSTEAD of merely pushing your opinions of which laws are still in effect and which aren't. But accusing people of not treating the whole bible as Gods Truth is dishonest when you yourself don't treat it that way either. In a literal sense.
I thought my post made clear these questions, I'll try again. I think the problem with your misunderstanding me is based on a belief that God works in our physical world, and an understanding of how God used symbolism.

I do not think it was the blood of animals (literal) that made for atonement. It was the blood of Christ that animal blood symbolized. When Christ came (literal) the blood of animals to symbolize Christ was not needed and and to use it would be to deny Christ.

The whole law does not include the rituals that were to lead to the law. God doesn't make mistakes or give commands he regrets. Those rituals like cutting foreskin were needed to help people learn his laws. The Holy Spirit replaces the rituals, they are not the law. The Holy Spirit acted to replace the rituals, they lead us into obedience of the law. Man gets the rituals mixed up with the law because they take on the teachings of the gnostics: that God is not in literal things and all literal things are of the flesh and corrupt. That is not so. In Col. 2:21 it tells of their teachings: don't handle, taste, or touch. They taught God was not in things we handle, taste, or touch. Paul says that is not so.

So as the new covenant (the real one) teaches, God leads us directly and rituals are not needed, but God leads us to keep the whole law, but you are including the things God told us weren't to be followed in the "whole law". That is an error.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,575
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#46
I thought my post made clear these questions, I'll try again. I think the problem with your misunderstanding me is based on a belief that God works in our physical world, and an understanding of how God used symbolism.

I do not think it was the blood of animals (literal) that made for atonement. It was the blood of Christ that animal blood symbolized. When Christ came (literal) the blood of animals to symbolize Christ was not needed and and to use it would be to deny Christ.

The whole law does not include the rituals that were to lead to the law. God doesn't make mistakes or give commands he regrets. Those rituals like cutting foreskin were needed to help people learn his laws. The Holy Spirit replaces the rituals, they are not the law. The Holy Spirit acted to replace the rituals, they lead us into obedience of the law. Man gets the rituals mixed up with the law because they take on the teachings of the gnostics: that God is not in literal things and all literal things are of the flesh and corrupt. That is not so. In Col. 2:21 it tells of their teachings: don't handle, taste, or touch. They taught God was not in things we handle, taste, or touch. Paul says that is not so.

So as the new covenant (the real one) teaches, God leads us directly and rituals are not needed, but God leads us to keep the whole law, but you are including the things God told us weren't to be followed in the "whole law". That is an error.
Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

If the TRUTH were I am dead to the rituals of the law that I might live unto the rest of the law then you'd think Paul would have been smart enough to word it that way.

But NOWHERE in the bible does it say that the rituals of the law may be discarded and the rest of the law may be followed. NOWHERE in the bible does it say that SOME of the law has been done away while some other parts remain.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#47
Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

If the TRUTH were I am dead to the rituals of the law that I might live unto the rest of the law then you'd think Paul would have been smart enough to word it that way.

But NOWHERE in the bible does it say that the rituals of the law may be discarded and the rest of the law may be followed. NOWHERE in the bible does it say that SOME of the law has been done away while some other parts remain.
You are accusing God of taking back all God's love and care for us by misreading what Paul is telling us. If you read all of Galatians you find that by the law he was speaking to what the people of his time were talking about, not all of what the Lord counsels us with. They were speaking of gentiles needing to obey such as cutting foreskin as obeying what it was to mean to them. Just read one more verse so you don't falsely accuse the Lord. Galatians 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

Now read to the end of this chapter and you will find that the conversation centers around asking gentiles to obey Jewish customs. Paul would be appalled that you would say he was opposing Christ and God by being dead to everything God counsels us with. Paul loved and followed Christ who told us that if we love Him we will follow Him.

If, as you say, Paul was opposing Jesus then Paul is not of God. And Paul IS a God chosen disciple to gentiles. Paul did NOT oppose Christ.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#48
If all that scripture (written works) tells us is corrupt, if all the guidance God gives us he calls Torah and we call law, is corrupt and it is right as people say that Galatians is right and God cancels His counsel to us we are in serious trouble. God wrote the ten commandments with His own finger, they are part of the written word you say is corrupt. Can a holy God write corruption?

When I saw this in Galatians I wiped my tears and started to study. I went to history in addition to scripture to find out what the people at the time Paul taught considered the law of Moses. I googled Yale and Harvard to find their ancient history professors and read the books they wrote after checking their background to be sure they had studied the latest archaeology findings, I found that Gamalier and other scholars had decided to require gentile converts to follow 18 rules (like circumcision) to be allowed to join a synagogue. They had been joining for a time then leaving for pagan parties, taking Jew friends they had made with them. No copies of the 18 rules has survived, only historians speaking of them. We are told of this in Acts. I found that people of the time of Paul were upset by these rules and called them Laws of Moses. Paul wrote of these in Galatians and not of the entire laws of the Lord. If this is correct, we can rely on all scripture. If it isn't then one scripture cancels another and we cannot rely on God as being the truth.
Hi thanks for the reply

The word of God is not corrupt men corrupted His way of purity .As in dying . . sufferings the pangs of hell the wage of sin men die never to rise to new life. Because Christians are given a new born again spirit they will rise on the last day and receive the promise the incorruptible body.

Genesis 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

His glory departed. In that way the whole creation has lost that glory . It will return on the last day in the new order.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
3,275
1,013
113
#49
Hi thanks for the reply

The word of God is not corrupt men corrupted His way of purity .As in dying . . sufferings the pangs of hell the wage of sin men die never to rise to new life. Because Christians are given a new born again spirit they will rise on the last day and receive the promise the incorruptible body.

Genesis 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

His glory departed. In that way the whole creation has lost that glory . It will return on the last day in the new order.
That scripture was a picture of the world before the flood. Do you really think our world has fallen so much that we are in the same state as it was then? There were giants on the earth that were taking so much food and were so evil that all people were in danger,
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,575
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#50
You are accusing God of taking back all God's love and care for us by misreading what Paul is telling us. If you read all of Galatians you find that by the law he was speaking to what the people of his time were talking about, not all of what the Lord counsels us with. They were speaking of gentiles needing to obey such as cutting foreskin as obeying what it was to mean to them. Just read one more verse so you don't falsely accuse the Lord. Galatians 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

Now read to the end of this chapter and you will find that the conversation centers around asking gentiles to obey Jewish customs. Paul would be appalled that you would say he was opposing Christ and God by being dead to everything God counsels us with. Paul loved and followed Christ who told us that if we love Him we will follow Him.

If, as you say, Paul was opposing Jesus then Paul is not of God. And Paul IS a God chosen disciple to gentiles. Paul did NOT oppose Christ.
Paul would be appalled?

The apostle who describes the 10 commandments as the Ministration of Death?

The one who says the letter is unto death?


Paul absolutely was NOT opposing the Lord Jesus. Paul was showing (dummies) what it is to Rest in Christ. It should be obvious that a person cannot rest and work at the same time. A person cannot be dead to the law and yet try to follow it at the same time.


Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Is the Lord Jesus opposing all of Gods commands here? Does He have the authority to do so?

What is rest in Christ? What does it even mean?
 

Prycejosh1987

Active member
Jul 19, 2020
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#51
The Jews put Paul on trial because of his teachings, and the trial’s outcome was to free Paul of the charge yet many in today’s church believe Paul did teach to abandon Moses. Are they correct? Did Paul’s teaching against circumcision and Jewish customs teach to abandon Moses?
Paul didnt teach against circumcision but what he did say was that, it doesnt make a difference if your circumcised or not. What matters is the content of the heart.

Constantine, who established many of our church's doctrines, told us that anything the Jews did we must not do for the Jews were evil. The Lord told us that if we cursed the Jews we would be cursed. who is right?
I dont think the Jews are evil the Jews brought the disciples and Jesus who descended from Jews. Not all Jews are bad just like not all gentiles are bad. Everyone is his own person. If you curse Gods people whether they are Jews or not God will punish the person that does this.