Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the churches!

[NarrowRoadDisciple]

Re: Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the church!

Amazing..... all those who 'liked' don't know what it means & neither do you.

You cannot convey the meaning with a story that doesn't match. So apparently it's not a no-brainer as you say.




Didn't I say that's what would happen? tried to explain away one scripture, while ignoring the rest. The rest of 'them' ignored it all. Why? Because the Word has way more truth than they can handle.

Here is the verse she was tearing down to something small & manageable.
2Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Ecaping the pollutions of the world means escaping all the power that sin had on us. Much more severe than a single habit.

Now, if you get 'entangled again' with all that sin, God will turn that person over to a reprobate mind whereby the control of sin will overtake you the rest of your life..... eternal damnation.

This 'entangling' is a complete turning back to sin & away from God..... not struggling with a single habit.

Nice try, though..... all the other hypergracers apparently ducked for cover.

What they were getting entangled again in was the Law. If anyone should be ducking it would be those here who are doing the same and encouraging others to follow them in their folly.

You just called Jesus a liar, because he said if you fail in one tiny little part, you're guilty of all. If you so much as think a bad thought against anyone, you're as guilty as a murderer. If you look at a woman and think a lustful thought, you are an adulterer. How then do you justify saying a single habitual sin doesn't matter?

Does it matter to God?

2 Peter 2 wasn't a warning against just Judaizers, but against all false teachings, doctrines, gospels, and Christs. For context, 2 Peter 2 starts off with speaking about false teachers arising in the church just as the false prophets arose among the people back in the days of OT Israel. Interestingly enough the false prophets actually arose from within God's people. False teachers can come from within the Church (born again believers) as well as from outside God's people. The Lord continues to exhort us to understand that these individuals forget the judgments that God has given to mankind and the earth throughout our history and that He also knows how to deliver the godly out of judgment.

2 Peter continues to talk about how these false teachers are marked out for condemnation and are spots in our love feasts, enticing unstable souls.

2 Peter 2:18-19 NKJV
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped[d] from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.

So when people who have escaped those who live in error (born again believers) follow these false teachers who are slaves of corruption, then by verse 19 we see that these individuals are brought back into bondage.

2 Peter 2:20-21 NKJV
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

The important part that Stephen63 brought up is that it speaks about individuals who have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the LORD and Savior Jesus Christ. In a different thread talking about 2 Peter 1, we all agreed that these people are born again believers. And in essence it refers to the same people spoken of in verses 18-19. What is the beginning state of these believers? Our beginning state would be not knowing the Lord. So for an individual who has tasted the goodness of the Lord, accepted His sacrifice and resurrection, and then to be entangled in the pollutions of the world again, the end will be worse than the beginning. Seeing as those individuals are brought into the bondage given by false teachers, we then see the seriousness of the warning for the church to stand against false teachings, doctrines, gospels, and Christs.

Yes, if we hold to the law, then if we fail in any one part, we are guilty of all. I have not seen anyone so far talk about walking by the Law of Moses by letter and not by Spirit. I've noticed that in the churches, there is a false association with conduct in God and obedience with being a Pharisee or Legalist. It's very sad to see, but as the scriptures have stated, there will be every wind of doctrine that pervades the Church in the end times. We need to hold fast to the truth as doctrine and gospel given to us and found in the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[Cee]

It's A Very Vague Scripture. Do you really think that if this was a warning for believers from burning in hell forever, Peter would simply say the end will be worse than the beginning?

It does not expressly say they are believers, it doesn't say Holy Spirit will depart them, it doesn't say they burn in agonizing torment forever, it's not even clear this is talking about eternal life. Yet ALL these assumptions are read into it.

John says love will save a soul from death. How do you know it's not talking about that? Or Paul who says release him to Satan so his soul might be saved, or even that they will be even more enslaved than they were before? These are all very real possibilities for this Scripture. It's extremely vague that's why you don't interpret simple Scripture through it.

And who do you know who is more entangled than any other? Who did Jesus speak harshly to? Who did Paul desire to emasculated themselves? Religious people who added conditions to salvation. This is who we have been warned about. But why? Because these people don't love. They spy out freedom and try to enslave. Their desire is to validate themselves. So they set up rules to follow. And make people twice a disciple of hell as they are. There is no fear in love. The very Scriptures that they point to to condemn others actually condemn them.

They deal in blatant sin, they attack, they divide, they discourage, they gossip and they slander, they are spots in our love feasts. And because they are bound by religion they try to bind others in their fear.

They profess to know God, but their fruit betrays them. They think they can earn something, keep something, Paul calls them bewitched. They are a root of bitterness that tries to defile others with their ways.

But the ones who know God are loving, peaceful, gentle, kind, they believe all things, hope all things, they lift others up, they encourage, they build up they do not tear others down. They are the peacemakers the children of God. Why??? What is that separates these sheep and goats? They know their Father. They know His love. They know His freedom so they can share Him with others.

 

[Cee]

And just so I'm not mistaken I'll share the other side. Yes we are obedient. We are obedient to love others. To protect, to cover. To give water to the thirsty, food to the hungry, we visit the prisoners, we pray for the sick, we sacrifice for others, we speak life to each other, we help each other with burdens, we take care of our families, we pray, we are thankful, we are joyful, we do not forsake the local gatherings, we give to the poor, yes we reveal Christ on the Earth!!! But we do these things because we are free, we are saved, we are loved, we know His goodness, we know His kindness, His law of love is written on our hearts and minds, we trust Him and we follow Him. We do these things because we know we are His children, He is pleased with is, no longer counting our trespasses against us. And He, this hope of glory, purifies us as He Himself is pure, we have died to the old selfish ways because we now know the Father is for us, everything He has we get to partake in, we no longer need to go after religion or rebellion, He has made the way. And we repent every single day, turning to Him and joyfully following His Spirit. Not for love, but from love. Not for transformation, but from it. Yes His Spirit guides us into what He has done in us, but once we accept Him, we are baptized in Him, reborn as new creation in Him, sealed with His Spirit and we now follow the Spirit as He receives everything the Son of God paid for. And His law of love is not a burden to us, His freedom allows us to truly love and it is a blessing, a privilege and honor to be His ambassador on Earth. We get to love just as we are known by love. We are so blessed. We are His. And He is ours. Like a wife with a husband we have been made one in Him. Obedience? It is part of our blessing. Because He is good!!!

 

[mailmandan]

Re: Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the church!

Here is the verse she was tearing down to something small & manageable.
2Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Ecaping the pollutions of the world means escaping all the power that sin had on us. Much more severe than a single habit.

Now, if you get 'entangled again' with all that sin, God will turn that person over to a reprobate mind whereby the control of sin will overtake you the rest of your life..... eternal damnation.

This 'entangling' is a complete turning back to sin & away from God..... not struggling with a single habit.

Nice try, though..... all the other hypergracers apparently ducked for cover.

Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

*Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature," having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature."

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution.

Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the "corruption that is in the world through lust" (2 Peter 1:4).

*Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these false teachers because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment. "

 

[p_rehbein]

Too, too funny...........a Thread concerning OSAS ends up being YET ANOTHER Law v. Grace argument. Too, too funny........

 

[FreeNChrist]

Re: Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the church!

See? they don't want to touch those scriptures..... they want to make everything about the Law, which my quoted scriptures wasn't.

C'mon..... what are you afraid of? Can't you make proper comments about these scriptures? I'm giving you a golden opportunity to show anointed teachings on true doctrine. Man up & deal with it head on.

Ummmm, no, that would be you who wants to make everything about the Law. Why are you so afraid of God's grace??

 

[PeterJens]

Christians are under grace not the Law. So it begs the question, what are you doing here?

This is an interesting statement. Let me break it down,

Christians - believers
under grace - allowed to do what they like
not the law - hard impossible rules that just cause failure and condemnation

What this actually means

Christians - believers
under grace - there hearts are driven by love and the law is their delight
not the law - not ruled by sinful passions that dominate all their lives

Now the same sentence means different things to different readers.
And in this lies the problem. Grace only works if faith and love dominate the believers
heart.

 

[FreeNChrist]

This is an interesting statement. Let me break it down,

Christians - believers
under grace - allowed to do what they like
not the law - hard impossible rules that just cause failure and condemnation

What this actually means

Christians - believers
under grace - there hearts are driven by love and the law is their delight
not the law - not ruled by sinful passions that dominate all their lives

Now the same sentence means different things to different readers.
And in this lies the problem. Grace only works if faith and love dominate the believers
heart.

Thanks, but I'm pretty sure everyone but you understood what was meant.

 

[PeterJens]

Thanks, but I'm pretty sure everyone but you understood what was meant.

Thankyou "freeNChrist". After being on cc for 16+ months I assume nothing. Everytime I ask a
question I get the most unexpected answers.

To assume things is always a mistake.

Can you please tell me what you meant by it?

 

[valiant]

This is an interesting statement. Let me break it down,

Christians - believers
under grace - allowed to do what they like
not the law - hard impossible rules that just cause failure and condemnation

What this actually means

Christians - believers
under grace - there hearts are driven by love and the law is their delight
not the law - not ruled by sinful passions that dominate all their lives

Now the same sentence means different things to different readers.
And in this lies the problem. Grace only works if faith and love dominate the believers
heart.

LOL the grace of GOD (God acting in unmerited favour) only works if faith and love dominate the believer.? Rather the grace of God PRODUCES faith and love.

But you have exposed yourself. You think

'under grace - allowed to do what they like'

is that how you behave when someone shows you great favour? Enough said.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Thankyou "freeNChrist". After being on cc for 16+ months I assume nothing. Everytime I ask a
question I get the most unexpected answers.

To assume things is always a mistake.

Can you please tell me what you meant by it?

I meant that only you could look at that statement and somehow think that it needed you to "break it down".

 

[PeterJens]

OSAS - security or delusion?

I said to someone in church once, I knew I was not alone and Christ loved me.

He turned around and said, really?

So many speak the words, grow up in the assumptions but miss the message.
Many do not know what it means to be loved, by anyone.

Jesus is a way of getting guilt dealt with, conforming to a group behaviour in
the belief this saves you. Better still if you loose the plot, you are still held
firm.

Now in funerals of loved ones, this is a very reassuring belief.
Especially if you think hell is torture for eternity. You mourn them passing from
life, but if you truly thought this was their fate, how could you live with yourself.

Life and emotions are often brutal, difficult and can rip you apart.
It is why being centred in Christ and the cross matter, and is the safest place in
the universe to be.

 

[valiant]

This is an interesting statement. Let me break it down,

Christians - believers
under grace - allowed to do what they like
not the law - hard impossible rules that just cause failure and condemnation

What this actually means

Christians - believers
under grace - there hearts are driven by love and the law is their delight
not the law - not ruled by sinful passions that dominate all their lives

Now the same sentence means different things to different readers.
And in this lies the problem. Grace only works if faith and love dominate the believers
heart.

Being 'under the law' means you will be judged by the law. There is no hope for any of us 'under the law'.

Being 'under grace' means we will be judged as those who are clothed with Christ's righteousness.

See rom 3.24-27; 4.5.

 

[PeterJens]

LOL the grace of GOD (God acting in unmerited favour) only works if faith and love dominate the believer.? Rather the grace of God PRODUCES faith and love.
But you have exposed yourself. You think
'under grace - allowed to do what they like'
is that how you behave when someone shows you great favour? Enough said.

Valiant - you missed my point 100%

I was saying I could read this sentence to mean the first interpretation.
I was then saying I read it as the second interpretation.

Now using the first interpretation as a way of exposing me, shows your miss-understanding of my
intention.

But it also demonstrates that this is actually how you interpret the sentence, which is my point
exactly.

Thankyou for demonstrating why such statements are miss-leading if they are not expanded.

 

[notuptome]

Re: Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the church!

Amazing..... all those who 'liked' don't know what it means & neither do you.

You cannot convey the meaning with a story that doesn't match. So apparently it's not a no-brainer as you say.




Didn't I say that's what would happen? tried to explain away one scripture, while ignoring the rest. The rest of 'them' ignored it all. Why? Because the Word has way more truth than they can handle.

Here is the verse she was tearing down to something small & manageable.
2Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Ecaping the pollutions of the world means escaping all the power that sin had on us. Much more severe than a single habit.

Now, if you get 'entangled again' with all that sin, God will turn that person over to a reprobate mind whereby the control of sin will overtake you the rest of your life..... eternal damnation.

This 'entangling' is a complete turning back to sin & away from God..... not struggling with a single habit.

Nice try, though..... all the other hypergracers apparently ducked for cover.

Wow for a guy who is supposed to be educated and able to lead a church you certainly mucked this one up.

2 Peter 2 is not talking about believers but false prophets and false teachers. We might call them apostates today.

Peter is posing a hypothetical in verse 20 when he says if they have escaped the pollutions of this world they are again entangled in it.

Here is the point that has escaped your reasoning on this matter. They had knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ but they did not receive Him as Lord and Savior. They exchanged the revelation of God for one of their own making just like Paul wrote in Romans 1. These in fact rejected Christ and professed a false Christ not the Christ of the bible. They are seen as tares that look like wheat but will be separated out and burned in the end.

The grace of God that saves also seals unto the day of redemption. The grace of that saves produces repentance and obedience. The grace of God that saves produces an irreversible change in the life of the man that receives it.

Ro 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[valiant]

Valiant - you missed my point 100%

I did not miss the point. The fact that you could even think that someone held the first view and it be held a serious interpretation condemns you utterly.

I was saying I could read this sentence to mean the first interpretation.
I was then saying I read it as the second interpretation.

so you condemn those whose trust is solely in God to the first view? As I say it condemns you utterly. You don't even bother to find out what your opponents really believe. Your second 'interpretation' is equally incorrect. You have misinterpreted what it means to be 'under the law'.

that is your problem. you do not understand even what the phrases mean. You never take them in context.

Now using the first interpretation as a way of exposing me, shows your miss-understanding of my
intention.

It shows what you THINK those under grace (trusting wholly in God for salvation) believe. It is a gross calumny.

But it also demonstrates that this is actually how you interpret the sentence, which is my point
exactly.

I interpret YOUR sentence, recognising what you mean, but I do not accept it as held by those you attack.

Thankyou for demonstrating why such statements are miss-leading if they are not expanded.

They are not misleading. They are judgmental. And God will judge you for it.

 

[Grace777x70]

Too, too funny...........a Thread concerning OSAS ends up being YET ANOTHER Law v. Grace argument. Too, too funny........

View attachment 156548

I know..lol...the truth is going back to live under law is just as destructive as living in blatant sin. Only one "looks more holy" but it isn't as they both are rejecting the life of Christ that is them and are living "their own life " - if they are in fact real Christians.

 

[UnderGrace]

Re: Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the church!

Amazing..... all those who 'liked' don't know what it means & neither do you.

You cannot convey the meaning with a story that doesn't match. So apparently it's not a no-brainer as you say.




Didn't I say that's what would happen? tried to explain away one scripture, while ignoring the rest. The rest of 'them' ignored it all. Why? Because the Word has way more truth than they can handle.

Here is the verse she was tearing down to something small & manageable.
2Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Ecaping the pollutions of the world means escaping all the power that sin had on us. Much more severe than a single habit.

Now, if you get 'entangled again' with all that sin, God will turn that person over to a reprobate mind whereby the control of sin will overtake you the rest of your life..... eternal damnation.

This 'entangling' is a complete turning back to sin & away from God..... not struggling with a single habit.

Nice try, though..... all the other hypergracers apparently ducked for cover.

You are clearly adding to scripture here, there is no mention of eternal damnation.

It is not that hard to see what is being said here, Peter is very very strongly warning against false teachers.
He is telling believers (those who were washed cleaned) not to get involved with them.

If you do get involved with them you will end up back in bondage. The bondage is many things because these false teachers speak great swelling words, so they sound really good so they will convince you if you listen and believe what they say.

There are more spiritual dangers for someone who is born again because it is easy to fall in error because the veil that held their eyes has been removed but without good spiritual guidance they can end up in the wrong camp of false teachers.

But if you start following the wrong teachers, it is very hard to come out from under them, therefore it is worse for you, you are worse off than before because you had a opportunity for complete freedom in Jesus but instead you have brought in sin and bondage, instead of living in grace you are living in your own effort, your life will be worse in some ways, because you know truth and love but you have mixed the truth in you with false belief and sin.

You will suffer in this life. You are going back to your old sin nature instead of living in the new creation.
That is the key. You will suffer, yes, for many reasons, but he is not talking about losing your salvation.
He is talking about this life and the consequences in this life of following false teachers after you have been born again.

You are adding to the text.

 

[AuntieAnt]

Every time religious leaders tried to outsmart Jesus with their interpretations of the scripture, Jesus answered in a way that exposed their true motive. Their own words proved that they did not know God, but instead were motivated by self-righteousness. Their own hearts condemned them for if they knew God loved them, they would have not been hostile toward the Lord Jesus.

Many are afraid of God because their hearts condemn them. They know in their heart of hearts the evil thoughts in their mind and they cannot understand how God forgives completely and makes men new, spiritual beings. Because we cannot grasp God with our carnal mind, it is by faith that we receive him. So folks spend their whole lives trying to appease this angry God so he won’t reject them and send them to hell forever. The God they serve will only be faithful if they are faithful to him. And in order to justify this religious belief system, they attempt to put everyone else under the bondage of fear that they live under. The more they can get others to agree with this belief system, the more entangled they become. They are the blind leading the blind.

Isaiah 41
For I, the Lord your God, will hold your right hand, saying to you, “Do not be afraid, I will help you.”

TRUTH: God will not let go of you. God does not want you to be afraid of him. God will always help you.

Isaiah 54
For this is as the waters of Noah to me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be angry with you, nor rebuke you.

TRUTH: God swears that he will not get mad at you or punish you.

Matthew 15
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

TRUTH: If someone tells you to fear God’s wrath or punishment, their own heart is afraid of God and their eyes are darkened.

Luke 6
For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

TRUTH: Anyone who belongs to Christ, resembles Christ. Jesus is kind and good and those who are his bear good fruit.

John 15
I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away; and every branch that bears fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

TRUTH: Anything we do to appease God is not acceptable fruit. Anything that God does through us is good fruit. We can do nothing apart from God. He makes us to abide in him and produces good fruit through us. We can’t produce good fruit of ourselves.

Romans 8
The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

TRUTH: Our own understanding, our flesh mind is dead spiritually. But when God’s Spirit rules our mind, it is life and peace. Our own understanding rebels against God because our flesh mind cannot receive anything from him. You can’t have a relationship with God through your own intellect.

I John 4
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

TRUTH: Anyone who exhibits God’s love to others knows God. Anyone who does not exhibit God’s love to others does not know God.

James 1
If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given to him.

TRUTH: Ask God for his wisdom so you can see his truth. He will show you.

All one need do is read through these posts to easily discern by the Spirit of Jesus Christ who is speaking from God’s love and mercy, and who is speaking from their own fearful religious belief system. Ask God to give you eyes to see the truth. He will not disappoint you. He is faithful.

Anyone who teaches that God can change his mind, that God will get angry at you, that he will let go of you when you mess up, that his vow is not faithful, that his promises are conditional, that the cross of Jesus Christ alone is not enough to make men new, does not know God.

 

[PeterJens]

They are not misleading. They are judgmental. And God will judge you for it.

Seems like you regard me as an enemy. How is this so? How have I hurt you, or made you so
angry?

Paul in romans says our minds honour God but our sinful passions rule our lives when not in Christ.
If we walk in the Spirit, we are slaves to righteousness, not living by our passions but conquering
them in love and the power of the Holy Spirit.

As a Christian is this not your experience?

My sentence condemns no-one. I was saying what my view was in summary in a sentence.

You see condemnation in words that are not condemning.
A few words do not summarise a full understanding.

But again you have jumped to conclusions, judged me, condemned me and said I will answer God for
things only you have read into the meaning.

How can you get so serious over so little? Gods grace is fantastic, and His love through the cross
life transforming. I hope that we can both agree we are not under the law because we walk in the
Spirit.

I also hope we can agree the Gods law is Holy and good.
That we live by the law of the Spirit that reigns in our hearts.

Now if we agree with all this, how is it that you appear so antagonistic?